New Agility Rules

[Kavik]

I have heard that there are new rules for agility coming in next month concerning the table, seesaw and some changes to the weave faults. I thought it would be good to have a thread to discuss the changes, effects of the changes, any modification to training or running as a result.

Is anybody going to retrain the seesaw or table? Do you think not being able to go and complete the weaves if you missed one will cause your dog to pop or miss them more often in competition?

[The Spotted Devil]

We are already using the new table heights at training. The seesaw is a bit of a training hump for us at the moment - a confidence issue - and after running Zig over a very light one yesterday at a trial that bounced him (and many other dogs) off the end I look forward to something consistent that I can train him on.

I didn't know that about the weaving poles - if I had a dog that stuffed up the weaving poles AND I was very confident I had trained the dog for all those scenarios/entries/distance handling/distractions etc then I would quietly leave the ring. I do get a bit frustrated watching dogs being put through the weaving poles several times in competition, still stuffing them up and then being rewarded by continuing through the 'fun' parts of the course - it doesn't help much if you do it like that and it's also very time consuming! I have a huge amount of respect for one of my previous instructors (very experienced and from another club) who quietly pulled her youngster from the ring a few weeks ago for breaking her start line. Clearly she had trained the criteria but high drive youngster just couldn't contain herself Beautiful start lines this weekend too.

[Kavik]

I guess with the weaves my main concern is popping - doesn't happen all that often with Kaos but popping at pole 10 is common and VERY rewarding if you continue and I think likely to create a popping issue.

I haven't encountered a smaller seesaw yet so not sure what implications it has for our training and performance, though its difference to the large ADAA seesaw at training will be noticeable My seesaw at home is adjustable so I guess I can use that if I need to retrain. Not sure if the drop rate is the same as before? Mine is competition standard.

I don't think the change in the table will present much of an issue for us.

[Staranais]

What are the changes? Just being nosy as they obviously don't affect me.

[J...]

Is anybody going to retrain the seesaw or table? Do you think not being able to go and complete the weaves if you missed one will cause your dog to pop or miss them more often in competition?

Table doesn't bother me so much given we have it at all different heights at the club I train at occasionally and both my dogs are used to seeing it at everything from 200 to 600 and sticking it regardless.

The seesaw bothers me a lot, especially with a young inexperienced dog. My interpretation is that you could be using a weesaw at one trial and a full sized seesaw at another up until January 1 2012?.

Weaves - would've bothered me if Darcy was still a 10th pole popper, but I found putting her back in to do them again wasn't stopping the issue anyway. I put her back through 2x2s and did some pretty extreme proofing along the way. She hasn't popped a weave pole in a trial since, and I can leave her in the weaves and get to where I need to be these days :D . As for Zee, she isn't the kind of dog you redo stuff with, if she stuffed up her weaves she's telling me she needs more work and understanding and putting her back through the weaves in a trial ring is not going to fix that.

I can see why they've stopped people doing it - there is a fine line between making the dog get it right and training in the ring, and some people gallop over that line.

Another great argument for NFC here in Vic, but I don't see it happening

Edited June 19, 2011 by Jess.

[Kavik]

Yes it would be a great use of NFC runs!

[ness]

I didn't think the Wee-saw was allowed until the 1st of January 2012. Clubs here I am pretty sure are not swapping until then. Kind of glad my youngster has been out injured this year because it means I won't have to worry about needing to have trained 2 different see-saw heights.

[Tay.]

[NOTE - The new Agility Rules commence on 1 July 2011 whilst the new equipment rules commence on 1 January 2012.]

From the ANKC website.

What is the change with weave faults?

Edited June 19, 2011 by DogSportObsessed

[FHRP]

What is the change with weave faults?

Under course faults:

In the Weaving Poles, after the dog has entered correctly, the dog fails to negotiate a gap.

No further penalties will be incurred for the dog not negotiating any other gaps Dog must

continue after missing a gap. Repeating any part of the weaving poles will be judged as

wrong course.

And under disqualifications:

d) in the Weaving Poles, if the dog repeats any gap either missed or completed.

So as I'm reading it, you can no longer fully reattempt the poles if your dog misses a pole, and you don't have to/can't go back to where the dog missed a pole. You aren't DQ'd if you continue to the next obstacle if the dog missed a pole.

Edited June 19, 2011 by FHRP

[Tay.]

What is the change with weave faults?

Under course faults:

In the Weaving Poles, after the dog has entered correctly, the dog fails to negotiate a gap.

No further penalties will be incurred for the dog not negotiating any other gaps Dog must

continue after missing a gap. Repeating any part of the weaving poles will be judged as

wrong course.

And under disqualifications:

d) in the Weaving Poles, if the dog repeats any gap either missed or completed.

So as I'm reading it, you can no longer fully reattempt the poles if your dog misses a pole, and you don't have to/can't go back to where the dog missed a pole. You aren't DQ'd if you continue to the next obstacle if the dog missed a pole.

Thanks for that ^

So previously if you reattempted the weaves after the dog skipped a pole, it was just a NQ? But now it's a DQ? What if the dog misses it's entry, DQ?

I'd rather DQ then continue with the course if my dog skipped a pole

[FHRP]

Currently your dogs must complete the poles completely or they will NQ when they do the next obstacle. So if they pop out, you can either go back to the start and reattempt, or put them back in where they popped out. Currently any incorrect entry into the weave poles is treated as a refusal, so an NQ if you 'fix it' and a DQ if you continue without fixing it and do the next obstacle.

The new rules on refusals for weavers appear to be the same in both rules, so the entry must be fixed before attempting the next obstacle I assume?? As another obstacle would be deemed out of order?? But a dog can't repeat any gap... so??

Refusal rule:

Attempting the Weaving Poles a dog runs past the first pole to the left of the Weaving Poles or

past the second pole to the right of the Weaving Poles.

[Casima]

So as I'm reading it, you can no longer fully reattempt the poles if your dog misses a pole, and you don't have to/can't go back to where the dog missed a pole. You aren't DQ'd if you continue to the next obstacle if the dog missed a pole.

Hi all,

As I understand it, you can still go back and fix your weaves without having to leave the ring, from a DQ or not point of view it is no longer preferable tho. Also it seems that those dogs you see who occasionally miss a gap in the middle and then continue weaving will be DQed as soon as they restart to weave? not sure

from the new rules

9.16 Disqualification

A dog will be disqualified if:

....

d) in the Weaving Poles, if the dog repeats any gap either missed or completed.

.....

In the event that a dog is disqualified under items a, b, c, d, k, o the handler and dog will be permitted to

complete the course.

[RubyStar]

Currently your dogs must complete the poles completely or they will NQ when they do the next obstacle. So if they pop out, you can either go back to the start and reattempt, or put them back in where they popped out. Currently any incorrect entry into the weave poles is treated as a refusal, so an NQ if you 'fix it' and a DQ if you continue without fixing it and do the next obstacle.

The new rules on refusals for weavers appear to be the same in both rules, so the entry must be fixed before attempting the next obstacle I assume?? As another obstacle would be deemed out of order?? But a dog can't repeat any gap... so??

Refusal rule:

Attempting the Weaving Poles a dog runs past the first pole to the left of the Weaving Poles or

past the second pole to the right of the Weaving Poles.

So as long as they hit the right entry, they can pop right out again, you run straight to the next obstacle and you're not DQ'd?

[Tay.]

I'm glad I'm not the only one unsure of this

[becks]

In the UK you have to go back to redo the weaves, popping out early and running on to the next obstacle will give that dog an unfair time advantage and no incentive to the handler to train them right - or are your new rules giving some sort of penatly for not completing the weaves?

[Kavik]

As I understand it you get a course fault if you do not complete the weaves first attempt after a correct entry.

[Agility Dogs]

As I understand it you get a course fault if you do not complete the weaves first attempt after a correct entry.

That's the way I read it too.

I don't like the new rule. To me it seems a backward step, a little bit like letting dogs jump off the up ramp to the a-frame or dog walk and then continue with a course fault rather than having to demonstrate that they can do the obstacle (contact behaviour and safety issues aside).

Guess we'll be eliminated when/if we end up with that problem. Oh well.......

[FHRP]

As I understand it you get a course fault if you do not complete the weaves first attempt after a correct entry.

That's the way I read it too.

I don't like the new rule. To me it seems a backward step, a little bit like letting dogs jump off the up ramp to the a-frame or dog walk and then continue with a course fault rather than having to demonstrate that they can do the obstacle (contact behaviour and safety issues aside).

Guess we'll be eliminated when/if we end up with that problem. Oh well.......

If a dog jumps off the up plank of a dog walk it is a refusal, the same is if they miss a weave entry. If the dog jumps of the middle plank, it is a fault and the dog may not reattempt the obstacle without being DQ'd. To me the new weaving rules is in line with this. Correct entry and then pop, you can't reattempt the gap.

Personally, I like for the most part that you keep going if your dog misses a pole, rather than going and trying to fix it up. The amount of time I've seen wasted in the ring with handlers going back (often to the start!) of the poles repeatedly, and the potential 'damage' done to unmotivated dogs is why I like that the weaves shouldn't be fixed. If I was having an issue in trials with my dog consistently stuffing up the poles, I would put him back in and then probably excuse myself from the ring. It is training in the ring afterall.

NQ and DQ mean very little difference to me in agility, it's still not a pass. We are not told to leave the ring once DQ'd at our trials, unless the judge thinks you're taking an unreasonable amount of time (rare!). The only difference is I might scrape a place if we NQ not DQ, but they're not really the places I want anyway. So, under the old rules, I never or rarely went back and fixed weavers anyway

eta. However I guess what I don't like (if my interpretation of the rule is correct) is that a dog that pops the 10th pole and a dog that pops at the 3rd pole will only incur the same one fault? If places come down to it, then a dog that attempts only 2-3 poles will potentially be faster than a dog that attempts 10-11 and therefor NQ place higher? Didn't it used to be a fault for every gap missed? What happens with a dog that does a couple, misses one, does a couple, misses another one etc. Hmmm, maybe I need to read/think more on this

Edited June 21, 2011 by FHRP