Am I Expecting Too Much?

[blueberrymobile]

Hello All!

I'm currently fostering a dog through Australian Working Dog Rescue, she's a kelpie x ridgeback named Riley and she's an absolute sweetheart. But I just wanted to get some opinions on whether I'm expecting too much from her, I'm messing up with my training, or if we're actually doing pretty good.

To start off, I'll say we picked Riley up from the pound with no name, no history, a horrible case of generalized demodex mange, as well as the general malnutrition usually seen in pound dogs. Also, she was afraid of most people besides myself and my partner. The first few weeks she was pretty lethargic and mainly just slept, ate, and slept.

Once she started getting better I started working on her training. She obviously didn't know her name since we had to give her a new one, but she had been taught sit at some point since she would sit properly some of the time.

I've now had her for over three months and we think she's about 10/11 months old now. During that time, she's become solid with her name, sit, lay down, stay, come, bed, shake, play dead, and walks well on and off lead. Some others that she'll often do well but is as consistent at are drop it, get it, stop, rollover, and crawl. We've also just started doing some very basic agility like training for fun such as over jumps, through the hole/tire, and she's just started understanding weaving. She's also gotten better with meeting new people, but she's still not great. I know all of that is pretty good, but she still has some bad habits that I've worked on but don't seem to be making headway with.

When she's around my roommate's dogs, she tends to jump up on me much more than usual since they have never been taught not to. She knows she shouldn't jump up normally, because she rarely does it now and gets down and doesn't jump again when I tell her not to. But she is terrible about jumping up when around them, and will not listen at all to me about getting down when they're jumping everywhere. Also, when she gets excited and we're playing she'll sometimes get snappy. This is usually when we're playing on the same level, like the floor, she'll snap her jaws shut just in front of my face. She doesn't do it as often anymore, but again, when she gets all riled up it tends to come out of her. There's a few other little things, like not always focusing when I try to get her attention and things like that, but those are the main two that bother me the most.

So, do you think we're going alright and it's mainly just some bad habits/puppy exuberance that time and not being around my roommate's dogs will help solve or am I screwing up with some things? Any suggestions for how to work on the bad habits? I really appreciate you all taking the time to read and reply :D.

Also, here are some pictures from when we first got Riley and her now, to show how much she's improved :D.

[blueberrymobile]

Another from the beginning:

[blueberrymobile]

And Riley now (Sorry for my multiple posts, but I couldn't seem to get them all in the one)

[sas]

Perhaos the Rescue can assist you with funding a Behavioural visit?

[MadWoofter]

I'll start by saying I don't know much about working breeds, or about puppies / young ones, but in my experience, fosters take some time to 'settle'. If you've got some basic training in, and are doing agility with her, then you've obviously built up some trust, and in three months that's no mean feat.

There are a lot more people here more qualified than I to provide advise, but it does sound like she's trying to be noticed by you when around other dogs, which is behaviour I've noticed with some fosters I've had. They're so lacking in attention, that when they start getting it, they don't like it when it's not focused on them 100%

I would suggest working with her on the basic sit when she's around other dogs and people to stop the jumping. Work out her motivator, and use that to get her attention.

I certainly don't think you're screwing up things at all. It's a combinaion of puppy exuberance, and wanting to be your #1. Congrats on your foster - she's beautiful

[MadWoofter]

But she is terrible about jumping up when around them, and will not listen at all to me about getting down when they're jumping everywhere. Also, when she gets excited and we're playing she'll sometimes get snappy. This is usually when we're playing on the same level, like the floor, she'll snap her jaws shut just in front of my face. She doesn't do it as often anymore, but again, when she gets all riled up it tends to come out of her. There's a few other little things, like not always focusing when I try to get her attention and things like that, but those are the main two that bother me the most.

Just wanted to clarify that it was that part I'm talking about. I'd work on getting her attention (is she food motivated?) to stop her jumping. Most importantly though, I'd stop the playing on the floor with her. It puts you 'down' at her level, rather than being pack leader, and the snapping could be the start of a dominance issue. You should always be on top - and that includes physically.

The not focusing I would say could be youth, but then again it could be she's just being stubborn

[blueberrymobile]

Thanks for the replies MadWoofter,

Riley definitely isn't a huge fan when my attention is on other animals, but at the dog park and such, she mainly just shoves herself between me and the other dogs not jumping up on me. But, it could be a combination of her wanting attention and the other dogs jumping so she thinks it's the only way I'll notice her. I'll keep working on it, I mainly find it so frustrating because my roommates dogs are so unruly that I can't really manage anything with Riley when they're around lol.

With the playing on the floor/even levels, I thought it might be a dominance type thing. However, though I understand what you're saying about needing to be physically above her and such, I feel like dogs should have a chance to be played with on the floor/same level. Are there other ways to show dominance/leadership to a dog when on the same level? She doesn't seem angry when she does it, to me it appears more like playful nipping but obviously it still needs to be managed whether dominance or misplaced excitement.

We all absolutely adore her, even with her quirks, so I just want to make sure she's trained as best as I can to help her find her forever home.

Thanks again!

[juice]

My cattle x is from the pound, and when he wants another dog to play he play bows snapping the air , it could well be a breed trait you can do nothing about.

The same could be said for the wary behavoir around strangers if she had RR in her.

The jumping up on you could be she is uncomfortable around other dogs with no manners and is comming to you for help?

[aussielover]

She is gorgeoues blueberrymobile!!!

She looks very ridgy to me!

Re her issues:

Jumping- definitely a training issue. My dog also gets "jealous" when I pay attention to other dogs and will jump on me. I address this by putting her in a sit or down stay when I want to interact with another dog. She has a solid stay, but if your girl doesn't tput her on lead so she can't jump when you interact with another dog.

I would not get on the floor to play with a dog- especially if it snapped in my face (whether playing or not). There are plenty of other ways to have fun with your dog, without getting on their level.

Why do you feel that dogs hould be played with at their level?

[blueberrymobile]

Thank you both for your replies

Juice: She does tend to be a bit more of a nippy player at the dog park than most of the dogs I meet. And yes, I had heard that RR tend to be pretty skittish, though she shows some definite fear towards men--so the combination is probably why she's so slow warming up to people haha.

Aussielover: I must admit, half the time I get frustrated when I try and teach her anything with my roommates dogs around since they get so nuts, but it would probably be good for her if I spent awhile with her specifically around them so that she gets better in that situation. I'll try and work that into our daily schedule for awhile.

I don't know if I made it sound like she does the air snapping a lot while playing, she doesn't. It's a bit of an every once in a while thing when she gets into a really weird mood, and once she's done it I usually distract her with a toy but stop playing with her until she settles back down. There's a few reasons that I want to have her be able to play on the floor consistantly without this issue. Besides the fact I just like to be able to sit on the floor with my dogs and play tug and other games with them and then snuggle up together after, I feel that if I'm working towards rehoming her, I want her to be comforable in all sorts of situations. If she's around kids, I don't want her to be playing like that just because they're at my height when sitting down. I don't know if I'm making my point very well, but I just feel that dogs should behave well no matter if I'm standing/sitting/laying down. She doesn't do it nearly as much as she did when we first got her, so I feel like we're improving, I just didn't know if anyone had any experience with dogs with this sort of behaviour.

And thanks for the compliment, we think she's beautiful as well. It's hard to believe she started out so rough at the beginning. Still up for adoption ;) lol. Though now that all of DOL knows her bad habits, a prospective adopter is probably unlikely HAHA!

Thanks for the input!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I've seen whippets do the snap thing too. It's really strange but seems to be part of play and doesn't evolve into biting where I've seen it. I tend to see it as like clicking fingers for attention - here I am...

All that clacking of teeth can't be all that good for them tho.

Maybe pre-empt the jumping with a "sit" command or similar. The other dogs would count as a major distraction - which can be used for "proofing" your training eg the sits, drops and general manners - you train again in the presence of the distraction. It wouldnt hurt to surrepticiously "encourage" your room mate's dogs to sit instead of jumping on you too.

I think you're doing really well. All you need now is patience and persistance.

[MadWoofter]

Are there other ways to show dominance/leadership to a dog when on the same level? She doesn't seem angry when she does it, to me it appears more like playful nipping but obviously it still needs to be managed whether dominance or misplaced excitement.

Yes there are, however I would use them with care.

You should always have some part of your body higher than the dog's. If she's standing up, then you sit so your head is higher than hers. If she's lying down, then raise yourself on your elbow, again so your head is higher than hers. If she shows any sign of being dominant while doing this, then you need to stop playing with her on the floor until you have reasserted yourself as pack leader in all areas. It's not something that will happen quickly, and it may be that she will still occasionally show dominant behaviour, so it's a continual training thing.

Do this and then if she is being dominant, you need to work on the snapping. Not too sure about how to do that, but others will know. If she's quite happy with you being leader while playing on the floor, then I'd say the snapping is just play, and wouldn't consider it a huge issue

Edited June 18, 2011 by MadWoofter

[raineth]

what a gorgeous dog!

Firstly I think you are doing really well

I don't think you are progessing slowly at all; and to me it sounds like most things are going in the direction you want them to.

For jumping up you need to train an alternative behaviour and really reward this beahviour highly.

Playing is a great way of building a bond between you and her and also making her think you are the bee's knees.

It sounds to me though that it is just way too arousing to have you at her level playing.

If you don't like her snapping, make the game end immediately when she does that.

I would also be making the game end when you think her arousal is getting too high. I think by doing this you could easily teach her to tone it down a bit, as long as you are consistent.

[Kirty]

You said you distract her with a toy when she air snaps - to me, that is continuing the game and possibly even rewarding her behaviour. When she does it, I would say 'ARGH' and stop the game immediately. She has to learn that using her teeth is NOT on and will end the fun instantly.

[Ons]

the air snapping may be a working breed trait

I know my young coolie does it, if she brings me back the ball and I'm a bit slow in throwing it back to her she snaps at the air to try and get my attention I have never thought that she is trying to bite me in the least becasue it's not that sort of action, but I would be more cautious with an older dog

i think that you are doing really well with what you are training her to do and how she is responding

[trinabean]

My young Boxer was doing the air snap (we called it 'the crocodile' ) for a while. He seems to have grown out of it now.

I did discourage it by stopping play or switching over to some sits, drops etc. to turn down the excitement level somewhat. It seems to have helped, though I'm no expert.

That said, the air snap was always a part of play and teeth came nowhere near skin. I think it was just an expression of over-excitement? I was able to pre-empt it with my dog sometimes (his play style and a particular lunatic look in his eyes ) and would tone down the play. This may be hard to do with other excited dogs around though.

I think you are doing a great job and she looks beautiful now by the way..

[persephone]

the air snapping may be a working breed trait

A few of ours do it (farm bred Koolies) We trained a couple to do it on command

I wouldn't suggest you play on the floor with her ...

and perhaps ,with all teh other good things you're doing .. make sure she gets NO attention .. no eye contact, nuthin' ,unless she has 4 feet on thefloor ;)

[Keira&Phoenix]

My younger dog air snaps and has since I bought her home at 9 weeks old. She will do it sometimes when I play with her and sometimes she will play bow other dogs and do it, I believe it is as others have said a way of getting attention and a sign of excitement. I don't encourage it because once she gets to the air snapping point she tends to start mouthing a bit so I stop play as soon as she air snaps at me and either just ignore her or go into some obedience work. She does it a fair bit less now then when she was younger.

[poodlefan]

I can't comment on anything other than at 11 months, this dog is too young to be jumping higher than its pasterns.