What Do You Like About Obedience

[koalathebear]

ETA: I think there are many things as dog owners we can look at as pointless in ALL dog sports. Why do we need to teach our dogs how to weave through 12 poles as fast as they can? Why do they need to learn how to retrieve a piece of wood over jump? Why do they need to learn to do tricks in time to music? If it comes down to only doing things that have a meaning or point, then we'd rule out 90% of the things we train in any dog sport.

I agree with you. For many of my non-doggy friends and acquaintances, they think anything dogly is quite pointless. Pointlessness all depends on your viewpoint. I like dog tricks because my dogs enjoy them and so do I - they used to tire them out (not anymore :p ) so they have a 'point' to me. Other people think it pointless and demeaning. When I explain agility to my colleagues, they look at me like I am insane - which I probably am given that Canberra on a Wednesday night is frequently pretty cold and there am I running around on a field with my dog yelling like a crazy person For the 'point' of heeling, if you're a trialler it has a definite point - it's an indicia of a dog's level of training and focus and the handler's skill as a trainer. It's something quite concrete that you can compare objectively. For a non-trialler though, loose leash walking might seem to have more of a 'point'. In every group at my dog school, people are there for a different reasons - some to trial, some because they just want a well-behaved dog. I fall in the latter category but I still enjoy learning formal obedience even if it's probably not as 'relevant' for me as it for other people.

[corvus]

I guess that I think, why pursue arbitrary criteria that I only care about because I'm told I have to care about them when I could pursue arbitrary criteria that I care about because I made them up?

But that rules out every form of dog sport, because at the end of the day, you are working in whatever "restraints" and criteria are provided within the rules of that sport. I am quite a naturally competitive person so I actually like having a set criteria to work towards and within. That is all part of the challenge for me, and I'd suggest, for many other people who enjoy training and competing in dog sports.

This wasn't a poll about whether you enjoy agility or obedience or doing your own thing, it was a poll about those who like dog sports and which, out of two options, they prefer.

Well, I'm not going to be penalised in agility if my dog jumps quite high over a jump excepting if it makes him slower. And contacts keep dogs safe. I answered the poll with agility for two reasons, because I find the actual behaviours more fun to watch, train, and perform, and because there's a bit of leeway that means I don't have to be so meticulous if I don't feel like it. I can just have fun watching my dog be fast and active, and being fast and active with him, which is something I get a kick out of.

But that's not to say I don't get a kick out of some of the stuff we do in obedience exercises. A lot of the criteria I'm fine with and would choose for myself if given that freedom, but some of it seems stupid and paying attention to details that seem pointless to me is tedious.

ETA: I think there are many things as dog owners we can look at as pointless in ALL dog sports. Why do we need to teach our dogs how to weave through 12 poles as fast as they can? Why do they need to learn how to retrieve a piece of wood over jump? Why do they need to learn to do tricks in time to music? If it comes down to only doing things that have a meaning or point, then we'd rule out 90% of the things we train in any dog sport.

Because it's fun! :D That in itself is a reason to do something. If you find perfectly straight sits fun, then it's not pointless. OH doesn't like dog sports, but loves tricks because they make him smile. Therefore, they are not pointless.

[OSoSwift]

I am quite a naturally competitive person so I actually like having a set criteria to work towards and within. That is all part of the challenge for me, and I'd suggest, for many other people who enjoy training and competing in dog sports.

This is me, I like working towards perfection within the guidelines. I compete mainly with myself.

My idea of a dog doing really good heeling is of course the correct positions, but bouncing and a waggy tail. I want them to look happy and the word I use for Lewis often - flamboyant.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I find club obedience good for social skills for my dog, and sometimes me.

I found the beginner classes insanely dull. I used to run, to keep my dog interested. Grade 1 was heel and sit (and you said "sit"). Grade 2 was heel and sit and stand - and we failed the first time - argh. After that I went to class graduations in the morning for one grade, and if I passed, I'd go again in the evening for the other grade. Although we did spend quite a few months in grade 4 and 5 (crappy stays and unreliable recall).

Paddock bashing is boring.

We've been learning doggy dancing moves - how to teach your dog... for the last couple of weeks and it really puts the fun back in. Eg basic heelwork to music involves walking on both sides of the dog and backwards facing your dog moving forwards and transitioning between while moving. And doing all that - keeps the dog's attention because you're less predictable. Given how much time I've spent re-inforcing the heel on the right, that part was easy. For agility and because for some reason she prefers that side in ordinary walks, surely not because the treat bag is there? Or because I'm more co-ordinated at treat dispensing with my right hand? And for some reason me running backwards with dog chasing me was easy too. Not so easy to get her to go backwards in a straight line though we do work on that as part of body awareness for agility. I think the best body awareness training she gets is running and wrestling with other dogs.

So I much prefer agility to heelwork/obedience. I don't think the dog cares as long as there is plenty of food in it, though her fav game is chasey - so maybe agility is prefered. She does like getting up high too - so never had any trouble with the basic agility equipment like dog walk and scramble - main problem is to slow her down.

[RubyStar]

For the average person, it can all seem a bit bizarre and pointless.

It seems a bit bizarre and pointless to me. I taught Erik heel position when he was a puppy and thought it was a good exercise for me in precision training. However, since then I am finding plenty of things to be precise about that are more challenging for both me and my dogs, look cooler and make me smile like a straight sit never will. I guess that I think, why pursue arbitrary criteria that I only care about because I'm told I have to care about them when I could pursue arbitrary criteria that I care about because I made them up? I'm having a lot of trouble communicating this, but I guess in the end I'm left feeling like obedience doesn't have much to offer me except a way to measure my training if I decided to trial and a reason to create more secondary reinforcers.

corvus, you've stated plenty of times that you don't find obedience or obedience heelwork particularly exciting. Nobody is trying to convince anyone that they should like something and why they should. It's a personal thing. If you don't like obedience, then you don't have to - nobody can or will convince you to like it but YOU. And if you don't, then who cares Passion for certain things, or lack of, are things you have to find purely on your own.

[corvus]

I like heelwork well enough. :p If I disliked obedience I wouldn't bother with it. I just thought we were having a conversation about which we like better and why. I already said what I like about obedience. Now I'm saying what I don't like about it. Working towards detailed criteria doesn't bother me in the slightest. I think it's bizarre that this doesn't translate to obedience and I'm interested to know why other people prefer to work towards detailed criteria that are set for them. I am not sure I understand why being competitive should mean that it doesn't matter what the criteria are or whether they make sense. It's like we're afraid to say that they don't make sense, or that if we did say it we'd be accused of not liking obedience or not understanding it or some such. I thought I was inviting people to make sense of it, but instead folks won't quite say that they agree, but instead steer the conversation to why they don't care. I think that's interesting. I'm intrigued why being competitive should mean they don't care if what they are doing makes sense or not. Or more to the point, why they prefer to work towards criteria that are set for them. Do you ever decide to train something you think will be hard just for the challenge of training it?

[huski]

Corvus I am really strugglig to see your point here.

Obviously, we train exercises in agility and obedience because we find it fun/enjoyable/challenging but my point earlier was that aside from those rather obvious reasons, little of what we train for competitive dog sports has any real purpose or meaning outside of the sport.

I don't see anywhere where anyone has said that being competitive means that they don't care if what they are doing makes sense or not. The criteria for obedience competition makes perfect sense to me within the context of the sport. I can still however see how to the average person it doesn't make much sense or hold any real meaning outside of the fact I enjoy doing it.

If we didn't have set criteria in dog sports we wouldn't have, well, dog sports. of course I train things outside of dog sports but it doesn't often give me the same sense of satisfaction I get from being given a set criteria within which I meet a set goal. Where's the fun in making up the rules yourself? Where's the challenge? Although that is getting off topic seeing as this is a thread about why people like obedience not why they choose to train in/compete in dog sports

Edited June 16, 2011 by huski

[Inevitablue]

Personally, I would like to see less heeling in Novice, but this is a sport I gain satisfaction from, and with the right training so does my dog so I have to work a bit harder/ smarter to get past the parts I'm not extra fond off.

Hats off to Huski, I've mentioned it before but I'm impressed by what she has achieved with traditionally a breed not even remotely noted for it's aptitude for ANKC obedience.

I know I, and many others, derive satisfaction from meeting and excelling standards set for us by other people. Any competitive sport has rules. When I'm racing my bike I hate standing starts, I always seem to wheelie off the line and lose position, but I'm not going to stop racing, and I also hate having to use a control tyre but that's the rules. I need to work on that skill.

I know my dog can do many tricks, but I get a kick out of my skills and my chosen dog being tested against others and being pushed to improve what I do, outside parameters set by myself. We would all be winners if we wrote our own rules

Thanks guys for posting on the first page the elephant trick. Have been working on it each night and I now have a dog who understands correct heeling position. From my first dog who learnt it under duress to changing my training style I was stuck for an idea on getting her super close to me. We had the attention and eye contact, but her position was not 100%. She is so keen we almost have a bum dance happening!

Im curious how many people train at home as opposed to a club situation. My dog is too young to join an Agility club just yet, and I train for obedience at home, and use the time waiting around at shows to proof her. Herding and showing have been our main focus, but after the last herding trial in August it will be the challenge of the CCD.

[Kavik]

I like that I can make my criteria very detailed in agility if I want to :D ATM retraining my contacts and trying for detailed criteria for my 2o2o (pounce into position both front feet at the same time, speed) and of course always working on weave entries and proofing these (need lots of work on that, especially rear crossing them and me slowing down while he is in them). There is always a lot to improve on in agility, including single obstacle performance.

[huski]

Aww, thanks inevitablue, that's very nice of you :o

I am in awe of anyone whose dog regardless of breed goes into the obedience ring and works well with the handler, I absolutely love watching a great round of heel work, I think done well it is amazing to watch

[Inevitablue]

I like that I can make my criteria very detailed in agility if I want to :D ATM retraining my contacts and trying for detailed criteria for my 2o2o (pounce into position both front feet at the same time, speed) and of course always working on weave entries and proofing these (need lots of work on that, especially rear crossing them and me slowing down while he is in them). There is always a lot to improve on in agility, including single obstacle performance.

What percentage of time would you say you do at home and at a club?

Im so curious if people train with a trainer/ mentor one on one or more in a club situation. What stops people having private lessons? Money, time, not as social, happy with their current progress?

I used to have weekly lessons with Keith Edwards (like half of Sydney, lol) and my dogs and I improved at a greater rate than when I was in the club situation, especially when I had the deaf girl. A friend who was very successful (won both the open Agility and open Jumping at Sydney Royal one year) did most of her training at home.

[huski]

I don't do classes for oedience at all. If I train my dogs at club it's before class or after.

All the training I do is on my own, or in a private lesson with my trainer (rare) or sometimes with a small group who I meet up with for training sessions.

I do agility classes and enjoy those but they are very different to how obedience classes are usually run

[The Spotted Devil]

I have not spent any time in obedience classes with my current dogs - just use the trialling ring as needed. Definitely attend agility classes but try and do 3-4 small training sessions at home and have the odd private lesson.

[Inevitablue]

Aww, thanks inevitablue, that's very nice of you :o

I am in awe of anyone whose dog regardless of breed goes into the obedience ring and works well with the handler, I absolutely love watching a great round of heel work, I think done well it is amazing to watch

Lol, don't worry, I haven't quite got to wearing the fan club t shirts yet!!

I suppose because I feel like I gave up too soon with my old dog, instead of finding a better way. When I did find it, he could have won anywhere but he hated everything the white ropes represented and I didn't have energy to change that, plus we were having so much fun and success at agility. At home he did all the UD work but I had royally screwed up his enthusiasm for the 'boring' work.

As for tricks, he did anything. One year he performed on stage at Pet Expo and did all naughty behaviour on cue. Dug holes, pulled clothes off a mini clothesline, jumped a fence and went and hid, chased his tail, barked, tore up material. Training that was so much fun. My challenge is now getting that enthusiasm with the 'tricks' set by the ANKC.

[wuffles]

I train both obedience and agility at a club, group classes, 1 hour a week each.

At the moment I am doing very little agility training outside that hour... maybe another hour a week at home if we're lucky.

Obedience I do a little bit each day at home and actual longer training sessions vary depending on when I have time... some weeks we might just do 5 x 5 minute sessions. Some weeks I might do 3 x 30 minute sessions and 2 x 5 minute sessions. Often in the mornings I do 30 second bits of training... ask my girl to heel for a few steps, reward, end session. Or I might ask her to stay for a few minutes randomly.

I don't use a private trainer because I don't think there are any around here? I didn't even really know there were private trainers around for competitive obedience. Goes to show I'm a newbie.

I have found it very difficult to find more experienced people to train with. That may happen in the future but not without a lot of work from me.

[corvus]

Corvus I am really strugglig to see your point here.

No point. I'm just exploring ideas.

Obviously, we train exercises in agility and obedience because we find it fun/enjoyable/challenging but my point earlier was that aside from those rather obvious reasons, little of what we train for competitive dog sports has any real purpose or meaning outside of the sport.

Really? So, a heel has no meaning outside of obedience? Or a solid down, sit, or SFE is not useful outside the obedience ring? An out-of-sight stay is meaningless unless it's to prove your dog can do it? When I was training Kivi's rear-end awareness it was very hard for him, but we plugged away together and his confidence really improved noticeably the more body aware and balanced he became. I think I found that more pleasurable than the finished product. Now he can do things he never used to be able to do and none of it is related to obedience, but it all boosts his confidence and makes him easier to shape. Erik learnt very solid sits and some circle work in foundation agility. We definitely use that outside of dog sports. I do a lot of pointing and telling him to do something in that direction. I think it's very relevant to everyday life. The more I use it the more uses I find for it. Even jumping onto or over whatever I point at is useful in everyday life.

Where's the fun in making up the rules yourself? Where's the challenge?

The fun is in being creative, discovering new things to learn, and being surprised by your dog's skills. The challenge is in picking something that stretches both your training skills and your dog's performance skills and plugging away at it until it meets your standards. I don't think it's really any different to dog sports except for the freedom to be creative.

[Inevitablue]

Have you ever competed Corvus? Or do you intend on competing ? Do you train to the parameters of the ANKC?

Otherwise how is what you do at home with your own dog (and we all like teaching things, exploring and playing with our dogs, im sure all on this forum take great delight in this) relevant to what this thread is about. Input, yes, but relevant?

[huski]

Corvus, obviously basic obedience commands have uses in everyday life otherwise 90% of the pet owners in my classes wouldnt turn up - but my point is, the precision and formality with which we train the exercises we use in competition do not hold a lot of purpose outside of the ring. I can guarantee you that the 'heel' command most people are happy with in my class is not a heel that would score them well in the ring. Having a good stay, recall, focus etc on your dog is stuff the average pet owner wants but can get without the formality or precision required in the obedience ring. You don't need a dog who can reliably do a precise and formal heel, dumbell retrieve, seek back etc outside of obedience competition. That is what I mean when I talk about purpose. We train those things for obedience because we enjoy it not because we need it.

Edited June 17, 2011 by huski

[wuffles]

When I think about it, I can definitely find use in most obedience exercises which seem a bit pointless at first.

For example... sitting in front after a recall. I like my dog to do this no matter the situation. I want her to take the shortest possible distance in a straight line. I want her to end up close enough so that I can quickly clip the leash on or grab her. I want her to come in fast and with enthusiasm. And it's even kind of useful if her sit is straight.. makes it easier for me to clip her leash on and keeps her attention on me rather than what might be off to the side.

For my dog that doesn't naturally retrieve, even teaching a formal dumbbell retrieve has been useful. Previously, she would never have gone and picked up an item that I ask her to. Now she'll do that, and she won't drop it on the ground (most of the time). Instead of picking it up and doing a victory lap before dropping it on the ground 10m away

Dropping at a distance is very useful. SFE is useful (even the stand position - I want her to be able to stand still in any position, I don't think there's much point only teaching one). Walking around the back of her is just another distraction and she needs to know to stay until she's realised (eg. in an emergency situation where there may be lots of people walking around, some possibly very close to her).

I actually have used 'heeling' in real world situations. I use it at the dog park when I want to remove her from a situation. It keeps both of us calmer than grabbing her collar or running away or yelling. I've found it's been an effective way to both get her focussed on me and make other dogs (and people) leave us alone. I've also used it when I've come across kids on bikes or scooters on our walks... I can steer her in the right direction and keep her safe.

I can think of a purpose for most obedience exercises, even the finicky bits. I understand that some people don't care, and that's fair enough, but the more I think about it and write about it the more I love obedience

[ness]

wuffles as far as practical logic goes the one I could never get was a Broad Jump. Why would you leave your dog go and stand in the middle of the stream have the dog jump over a stream and then come and sit in front in the middle of the stream .