What Do You Like About Obedience

[wuffles]

One of the big advatnages for me is that you start off lead work very quickly in agility.

Where as in some obedience classes you can be stuck for months, even years doing on lead heel work.

I also feel in agility that you always recive feedback on how you can improve etc whereas in obedience if you doing basically the right thing, the instructors tend to ignore you. The people with "naughty" dogs get more attention.

I think is is mainly because in agility the instructor watches each person seperately as only one dog can run at a time.

I don't think this is necessarily the case... sure, I trained my heeling on leash in class for a year, but 90% of the time out of class I trained off leash. That one hour a week on leash wasn't really much to worry about! I did feel like I had to figure out a lot of stuff for myself in obedience classes (and still do) but we are trying to address that at my club.

Our agility classes sound like they run differently to yours as well... we set up a bunch of obstacles or short sequences like 'stations' so we work independently most of the time (the instructor/s keep a watch over everyone, give advice when needed and answer questions if asked). I guess it depends on how you learn best and like to work...

[aussielover]

I don't think this is necessarily the case... sure, I trained my heeling on leash in class for a year, but 90% of the time out of class I trained off leash. That one hour a week on leash wasn't really much to worry about! I did feel like I had to figure out a lot of stuff for myself in obedience classes (and still do) but we are trying to address that at my club.

Our agility classes sound like they run differently to yours as well... we set up a bunch of obstacles or short sequences like 'stations' so we work independently most of the time (the instructor/s keep a watch over everyone, give advice when needed and answer questions if asked). I guess it depends on how you learn best and like to work...

The problem is that our obedience instructors didn't give us much advice on how to practice at home except suggest we do more of the same as in class, which wasn't very fun.

We are still in beginner agility we still haven't done thinngs like see-saw and some poeple haven;t done all the equipment yet. The intermediate classes sound more like how your classes are run. Do your instructors expect you to teach the dog a new piece of equipment yourself?

Interesting to see how different clubs run things.

I am defintiely going to try to get back into obedience though. You guys have motivated me to want to give it another shot

[Kavik]

I also love that in agility, you spend time in class (and trials) with other people walking the course, discussing handling options etc and also afterwards discussing your performance, how to improve, what else to try, what went wrong and why, what to work on - lots of feedback I agree with aussielover that you don't tend to get that level of feedback in obedience.

[wuffles]

I don't think this is necessarily the case... sure, I trained my heeling on leash in class for a year, but 90% of the time out of class I trained off leash. That one hour a week on leash wasn't really much to worry about! I did feel like I had to figure out a lot of stuff for myself in obedience classes (and still do) but we are trying to address that at my club.

Our agility classes sound like they run differently to yours as well... we set up a bunch of obstacles or short sequences like 'stations' so we work independently most of the time (the instructor/s keep a watch over everyone, give advice when needed and answer questions if asked). I guess it depends on how you learn best and like to work...

The problem is that our obedience instructors didn't give us much advice on how to practice at home except suggest we do more of the same as in class, which wasn't very fun.

We are still in beginner agility we still haven't done thinngs like see-saw and some poeple haven;t done all the equipment yet. The intermediate classes sound more like how your classes are run. Do your instructors expect you to teach the dog a new piece of equipment yourself?

Interesting to see how different clubs run things.

I am defintiely going to try to get back into obedience though. You guys have motivated me to want to give it another shot

Our classes are quite small, maybe that makes a difference. But we learnt most of the basic equipment in the first few weeks... the instructor would give a rundown of the equipment, commands, safety, etc. and would help people out until they got the hang of it. We haven't done seesaw either and have only just moved on to the full size dog walk. We also haven't done a full course. A few of our 'stations' are just jumps or a tunnel and a jump, and we do a walk through of each station before class with discussion on the best way to tackle it (eg. crosses, lead outs).

Thank you for explaining about things that could be done better in obedience classes - I am teaching a class starting next week so it's useful to know things I should include! I will make sure to give extra games and such that they can do at home (although people tend to stare at me blankly when I suggest 'fun' things' )

[aussielover]

Thank you for explaining about things that could be done better in obedience classes - I am teaching a class starting next week so it's useful to know things I should include! I will make sure to give extra games and such that they can do at home (although people tend to stare at me blankly when I suggest 'fun' things' )

I think that is part of the trouble with obedience- people tend to go (in the lower levels anyway) out of obligation- their vet told them to go, a friends told them etc or in the hope that it will turn their naughty dog into a good one. This is changing with the introduction of teenage puppy clasess and "manners" classes though run by puppy schools.

Ive also heard some clubs run two separate streams- one for competition and those thta want to trial and one for people just after basic obedience. I think it is not a bad idea actually.

In agility I would say 90% of people in my beginner class want to eventually trial, even though we only do it for "fun".

I think you should suggest some of those exercises that you posted before involving the heel position and hind limb awareness. They are more interesting and the dogs gets more out of it than just heeling on lead in a circle or line.

[MrsD]

I agree with everything huski has said (no surprise there really is there huski )

What I experienced 10 years ago (heel, check, heel, check) changing to training-in-drive being used by more people outside the working GSD, Malinois & co society is only beneficial for the sport.

Completely agree.

One of the big advatnages for me is that you start off lead work very quickly in agility.

Where as in some obedience classes you can be stuck for months, even years doing on lead heel work.

If you are teaching your dog to heel with a collar & lead, you' re teaching it the wrong way ;) .

Aussielover, IMO 2 of the best dog trainers in Australia live in Sydney, (I wish they lived up here in Qld!) if I were you I would look for other avenues to train your dog in obedience work other than your traditional obedience club .

[corvus]

Well, I dunno, I do have a dog that hangs around in heel position like a shadow and there's no question he is happy and enjoying himself. I am chuffed with his tight turns considering he started out a very clumsy kind of dog. I love the big grins he gives me when he is doing obedience behaviours and I have fun watching him have fun with it. But it still doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm. Lately I've been teaching Erik fun things like weaving through my legs, walking backwards around me and up stairs, figure 8s around my legs, jumping over anything I point to and say "Over!", putting his front paws on my knee, jumping onto things I point at and say "Up!" and getting him to beg or down while balancing on tricky surfaces or objects. To me, this is Having Fun With My Dog. It's spontaneous and creative and high energy and we go so fast a lot of the time that Erik will come up with his own things and it kind of turns into structured, stylised play. Erik is WILD about this game. Tell him to go and play and he barks at me furiously. I actually have to be careful how I end a session so I don't overload him with frustration. I am particular about criteria and we are always tightening up his accuracy, speed, and understanding of the cues. Obedience is kind of the equivalent for Kivi because he's a different dog. However, I find it kind of rigid and arbitrary. I guess I'm an ad-libber. I value flexibility and creativity and I don't know how to have fun without it.

[koalathebear]

This thread has been very interesting. As some people have pointed out, everyone has their own preferences for dog sports/activities and it doesn't make one better than the other. It all comes down to what is enjoyable for you and your dog(s). For me personally, I am one of those odd people who actually enjoys going to obedience class but has little intention of trialling and also does not find heeling particularly interesting... My teachers have been great, I've enjoyed the classes - the dogs seem to enjoy them, too.

Part of the reason why I think a lot of people can be a bit ho hum about obedience is that despite the fact that a lot of people will try to tell you that it's not all about heeling and that there's Other Stuff, too - usually the people who like obedience also enjoy heeling and will emphasise the heeling side quite a bit - how much skill it takes, how great it is, how precise it is, how it strengthens the bond between owner and human etc etc. Therefore, for anyone who isn't transported into raptures of ecstasy over heeling - it can be easy to fall into the trap of thinking: 'heeling is boring. Oh noes - because I don't like heeling, I guess I don't like obedience." The things I like about obedience (even heeling) include the fact that done properly, it's interesting for the dog. I like the socialisation aspect. I like my dogs being able to deliver a behaviour consistently and around distractions. I like being among dog-friendly people. I like seeing my dog improve in areas with which we both struggled at the beginning. That's just me though.

I was talking to someone at agility last night and he said for him agility was much fun for him and his dog. He found obedience boring, pointless and frustrating and said that with agility, he at least didn't swear at his dog. He also saw little point in making your dog stay for x seconds etc. For the average person it's hard to understand why you need to walk around your dog to return to him after a stay, why your dog has to stand not sit for exam (i.e. isn't it good that he's sitting rather than jumping around?). For someone who intends to trial, he/she sees it as a sport with rules and the rules add layers of complexity and interest in the same way that rules and degrees of difficulty make a game interesting. For the average person, it can all seem a bit bizarre and pointless. I am happy with the content of our obedience classes. Even if I don't intend to trial, it's good for the dogs to have to do tricky things. We also attended different classes on Saturday where the dogs learned more practical things like manners when entering/exiting a car, focus work etc.

Elbie our older dog is doing agility and he loves it in a way he doesn't love obedience. It's more fun and interesting for him. One could argue that perhaps I should have made more of an effort to 'make' obedience fun for him but it's not that he doesn't enjoy obedience, he just doesn't love it the way he loves agility and I didn't actually have to do anything - agility was just automatically fun for for him. Lots of activity, apparatus, movement - lots of very self-rewarding things to stimulate and interest a dog like him.

With Hoover, our other dog, he has just passed silver obedience and I was toying with the idea of trying trialling with him since we're not sure he'll be suitable for agility - he's not quite as drivey as Elbie. OH is of the view that Hoover just behaves at obedience to please us because he is very obedient and that he doesn't 'love it' or particularly 'enjoy' obedience even though he enjoys hanging out with us and other dogs. I wish we had other alternatives like tracking here because Hoover has a very sensitive nose and I'm sure he would love that sport.

If people don't enjoy obedience, I don’t think they should feel bad about it. It's almost impossible to persuade someone to enjoy something that they don't … If there are elements that you still enjoy, then I'd focus on those. Also, from memory Mindy is like our dogs and loves learning tricks Tricks are great fun.

[aussielover]

Also, from memory Mindy is like our dogs and loves learning tricks Tricks are great fun.

Mindy likes any opportunity to get her face stuffed full of treats!

She would probably make a very good obedience dog as she would probably throw herself under a train for a piece of dry kibble

[huski]

However, I find it kind of rigid and arbitrary. I guess I'm an ad-libber. I value flexibility and creativity and I don't know how to have fun without it.

For me a huge part of what I enjoy about obedience is making something that can be boring fun and exciting and something my dog would walk across hot coals to do (or in D's case, run past a person waving her favourite reward in her face).

Maybe it's because it was boring and un-enjoyable for my dog for quite some time until I challenged myself to find a way to make it something she'd throw herself into, that gives me the satisfaction I get from training obedience. I also like to challenge myself and for anyone who knows me doing something "rigid and arbitrary" is very much the opposite of my personality.

OH is of the view that Hoover just behaves at obedience to please us because he is very obedient and that he doesn't 'love it' or particularly 'enjoy' obedience even though he enjoys hanging out with us and other dogs.

How do you know if your dog is not really 'loving' or 'enjoying' something? I ask because I've had people who think heelwork is boring, who quite violently oppose remotely competitive dog sports in any way shape or form, tell me my dog looks bored whilst heeling, which is something I cannot see myself, but perhaps I am missing something?

[Kavik]

I enjoy teaching aspects of obedience - find heel position, find front, finishes, turns etc as well as db work, but it is harder to find people to train with to help you get that spark in your dog in those exercises. For Diesel, training has to be very short and very fun or he will just dial in and not give a good performance (Zoe on the other hand, was walking her tonight and she voluntarily gave me focus attention heel for quite a bit of it without any prompting, and she is 11 1/2 yrs old ). Unfortunately all obedience classes I have been to, even the one I really liked, had a good portion of heeling patterns involved, and I wanted to achieve the amazing heeling I have seen in videos, and my dog can't give that kind of attention for that long. If I could find a group that worked on short fun exercises to get great attention heeling etc instead of long heeling patterns or basic manners I would be more tempted.

In agility, even at a club, your turn is very short and fast and motivated, so you don't get to practice bad habits such as working slowly/sloppily (well unless you do something too hard/long for your dog's ability, but most of the time you can say so and shorten it/make it easier at my club).

[aussielover]

How do you know if your dog is not really 'loving' or 'enjoying' something? I ask because I've had people who think heelwork is boring, who quite violently oppose remotely competitive dog sports in any way shape or form, tell me my dog looks bored whilst heeling, which is something I cannot see myself, but perhaps I am missing something?

I would interpret head down, tail down, lagging behind as a dog that isn't really motivated or having much fun.

I'd like to think I know when my dog is enoying something- this sounds ridiculous I know, but she gets a look in her eye- it is like a light switching on and becomes very attentive.

She is not really a tail wagger but she'll carry her tail high if she is interested in something.

ETS: daisu does not look bored to me when she is heeling. She looks very attentive and her tail ios always wagging- very cute

Edited June 16, 2011 by aussielover

[ness]

This clip was put together for another purpose but I think I would struggle to make a decision as to whether we enjoyed obedience or agility better - actions speak better then words .

And no I will tell you this dog has never been subjected to "group" obedience classes or block heeling both of which I know kill enthusiasm.

[koalathebear]

How do you know if your dog is not really 'loving' or 'enjoying' something? I ask because I've had people who think heelwork is boring, who quite violently oppose remotely competitive dog sports in any way shape or form, tell me my dog looks bored whilst heeling, which is something I cannot see myself, but perhaps I am missing something?

How rude of them! I'd say that you were in the best position to know your dog and when she is happy or not

It's pretty obvious when Elbie and Hoover are happy - they're like wound-up springs, mouths open a bit, eyes wide, hanging on your every move - spins are more like leaps and tail is going crazy. I wouldn't say that they're bored or unhappy at obedience - they can usually maintain focus for the entire hour of the lesson. When they snap into 'work mode', they can stay like that for ages. Both of their trick training sessions as pups used to go on for very long periods of time - we were new to dog ownership with Elbie and didn't know you were supposed to only train for short bursts of time so we used to spend ages training tricks. He seemed very happy about doing it and it worked well with him so we did it with Hoover, too. So at obedience they are 'working' and content. At agility, Elbie is also working but he has an added spring/sense of elation and extra energy about him which makes it seem like he's enjoying his work. It's the same zing he gets when he's playing with dogs he likes or if he's chasing a ball or a frisbee. We do try to make obedience 'fun' but like I said, with agility it was just automatic and instant fun!

[corvus]

For the average person, it can all seem a bit bizarre and pointless.

It seems a bit bizarre and pointless to me. I taught Erik heel position when he was a puppy and thought it was a good exercise for me in precision training. However, since then I am finding plenty of things to be precise about that are more challenging for both me and my dogs, look cooler and make me smile like a straight sit never will. I guess that I think, why pursue arbitrary criteria that I only care about because I'm told I have to care about them when I could pursue arbitrary criteria that I care about because I made them up? I'm having a lot of trouble communicating this, but I guess in the end I'm left feeling like obedience doesn't have much to offer me except a way to measure my training if I decided to trial and a reason to create more secondary reinforcers.

[wuffles]

Interestingly, I think my dog has a similar level of enjoyment in both obedience and agility. In fact, she has slightly more value for obedience at the moment but that's probably because it's been so heavily reinforced whereas we haven't been doing agility that long. Working away from me is a bit stressful for her so heeling suits us perfectly :p

I do take the point about certain things in obedience seeming pointless. I guess that's just in the way you interpret it and I agree, there's no point forcing something that you really don't think you'd enjoy.

I also don't think that dogs need to be wagging their tails and panting to be happy. I can tell you that my dogs are perfectly happy when they are lying on soft beds at home, even though they look comatose

[koalathebear]

I also don't think that dogs need to be wagging their tails and panting to be happy. I can tell you that my dogs are perfectly happy when they are lying on soft beds at home, even though they look comatose

I agree - but I call that Contentment in my doggies. When I'm talking about 'happy', I guess I'm talking about that moment when you can see they're all enthusiastic and full of: "This is fun" vibes :D

[wuffles]

I also don't think that dogs need to be wagging their tails and panting to be happy. I can tell you that my dogs are perfectly happy when they are lying on soft beds at home, even though they look comatose

I agree - but I call that Contentment in my doggies. When I'm talking about 'happy', I guess I'm talking about that moment when you can see they're all enthusiastic and full of: "This is fun" vibes :D

I guess there are different levels of happiness just like in humans... I don't mind if my pups aren't really crazy happy fun OMG the whole time, as long as they aren't unhappy. I don't want them lagging or refusing to do anything... which is why I train lots of obedience with Ava and not so much with Satch :D

Edit: I have to say that Ava is one of the most animated dogs you'll see in the obedience trialling rings around here... yet most of the dogs that just plod around the ring after their owners seem like well adjusted, content dogs.

Edited June 16, 2011 by wuffles

[huski]

I guess that I think, why pursue arbitrary criteria that I only care about because I'm told I have to care about them when I could pursue arbitrary criteria that I care about because I made them up?

But that rules out every form of dog sport, because at the end of the day, you are working in whatever "restraints" and criteria are provided within the rules of that sport. I am quite a naturally competitive person so I actually like having a set criteria to work towards and within. That is all part of the challenge for me, and I'd suggest, for many other people who enjoy training and competing in dog sports.

This wasn't a poll about whether you enjoy agility or obedience or doing your own thing, it was a poll about those who like dog sports and which, out of two options, they prefer.

ETA: I think there are many things as dog owners we can look at as pointless in ALL dog sports. Why do we need to teach our dogs how to weave through 12 poles as fast as they can? Why do they need to learn how to retrieve a piece of wood over jump? Why do they need to learn to do tricks in time to music? If it comes down to only doing things that have a meaning or point, then we'd rule out 90% of the things we train in any dog sport.

Edited June 16, 2011 by huski

[huski]

Edit: I have to say that Ava is one of the most animated dogs you'll see in the obedience trialling rings around here... yet most of the dogs that just plod around the ring after their owners seem like well adjusted, content dogs.

TBH I would say that it's uncommon to see a dog "fully animated" in the ring here. Many dogs look like they are going through the motions or just plodding along. It's not that they are all unhappy, but sometimes it is a bit frustrating when you know that the dogs could be enjoying themselves more.