Leash Aggression And Fence Barking

[Skruffy n Flea]

hello

i have 2 swfs; bella who's 3 in july, and byron who's probably 3 already [maybe 4] --- we adopted him in october 2009. both get along really well, play together beautifully, no food aggression and both perform perfectly well at the 'small dog' off-leash park. they also cohabit nicely with our 17 mo cat, bobbie

byron is the issue: on-leash and at the sight of another animal or human, he will lunge, snort, growl and bark --- this makes walkies a challenge but not one i shy from. i know from experience that he has no intention to cause any harm whatsoever to humans and i've proven time and again during our walks that this is so; i've asked ppl to stop and let him greet them, but not anyone with a dog he hasn't met before [on 2 occasions with dogs, he and the other dog/s greeted nicely and normally].

a neighbour [on my side of the street but several houses down] has a GS bitch; her [rogue] and bella became friends [not playmates] before we adopted byron and it all seemed fine but things in that household have changed dramatically over the past 12 to 18 months and rogue now defends her fenceline emphatically, to such an extent that during that time [and i'm told] rogue jumped her fence and attacked a small [foxie type] dog from across the road [the vet bill was high, it survived and was relocated from the neighbourhood to a member of the owner's family].

byron anticipates as we approach so in training him to be less reactive, i mix it up; some days i cross the street avoiding rogue while other times, i'll make an effort to desensitise him, spending time on the nature strip on either side of rogue's house and in front, redirecting his behaviour, treating each time i get a positive result. i also short leash him, giving him the 'uh uh' and march right past --- but this is the only controllable situation on our walks. rogue also responds to me but only to the extent that she'll back off from her fenceline and return to her verandah leaving byron space to explore with his nose.

one last thing i'll say with regard to byron's reaction to rogue is that only this past week i've noticed bella reacting to byron's behaviour in that she makes efforts [i think] to correct his [unacceptable] behaviour --- he's going OFF at rogue with bella growling and barking at him while nipping at his cheek and leg.

i've implemented some training techniques but adapted it to suit my behaviour too: LAT for [my] 'what's this?', get his attention [look] and treat, and 'this way' changing direction of the walk, which is working for the most part [bella is very responsive] but i just wonder if there's something else i could be doing to help change and settle byron's behaviour.

i've tried the leash on the collar, we got the sporn management harness, but i feel far better using their usual [rogz] harness --- it's not ideal for control i know, but it's what i prefer to use.

during walks i'm conscious of my surroundings and when someone [dog/s or not] is coming towards us, i will cross the road [if no dogs, i'll redirect to the nature strip and implement the 'what's this?' training for treats] --- the rogz harness provides a nice little handle strap so i can turn him away from whatever is approaching.

bella too has her issue, which compounds my effort to control byron; she is very ppl friendly, whines and squeaks and squeals while she lunges forward ... i am getting better at it but i must say i probably look a sight to anyone who happens to look out their front window and, of course, to those approaching.

as for fence barking, we have two dogs to the left [a boxer and an english bulldog] and one to the right [a pug x] and byron goes a little [a LOT] nuts when either of them are near the fence but only where he can peek thru and see them. these dogs do not bark in reply --- bella, and again i've only noticed this past week, appears to try and correct his behaviour [growling and barking at him while nipping at his cheek and leg]. they both respond to my presence and commands [mostly]. i've thwarted their access to the 'peek thru' part for the boxer and bulldog but that won't 'teach' him to stop his behaviour --- as for the pugx, it would take a new fence and again, that's not going to teach him.

one last thing to note on the fence barking; whatever the trigger, bella rarely responds on her own and if she does, it's quietly [a whine perhaps], but if the trigger alerts byron, he reacts, growling, huffing and barking and bella follows suit in similar fashion...

i would gratefully appreciate any advice.

thanks

[Staranais]

I'd walk them separately until you have each dog's individual issue under control. Hard enough training one reactive dog at a time. Trying to wrangle two at once is impossible - it invariably results in good behaviours getting ignored and bad ones getting reinforced when you're focusing on the other dog.

[mish13]

I will be watching this thread very closely as I too have the same issues but mine are compounded by the fact I walk four dogs on my own. I have one a 30 plus kilo standard poodle that is not dog friendly so we have the odd dog behind the fence problem and having to cross the street if another dog is approaching.

I walk at 5am in the morning so we don't come across to many dogs, this past week i have filled my pocket with Liver treats. Every time I get close to the fence barkers I try and redirect there attention to me. So far it is helping but I will be interested in what other people advice you to do.

Walking one at a time is not an option for me it would take four hours to give them all a one hour walk.

Good luck in working with your dogs.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I ahve one reactive dog and one perfect dog ( :D ).

I ahve to walk them separately as the reactive one is more reactive when the other comes along. Walking separately just means that she can have 100% of my attention and I can focus on working on her issues. I can see what is coming up and put avoidance strategies in place before I need to deal with her being reactive. She is becoming lots and lots better. We can now have walks where we have 0 issues!! They're not all the time but they happen (compared to having walks that made me want to cry this is a brilliant thing!!).

I would steer clear of letting the dogs even get close to being worked up whenever you can. I see it a bit the way that new smoking ad talks - the more you practise somethign the harder it is to stop doing it, even if it is only sometimes. If you can see a situation to avoid then avoid it. Approach the threshold slowly so that you don't undo all the good work you've been doing!! To me it sounds like you're using lots of good strategies already.

I would strongly advise the walk separetly thing though. I also think it's good to give each dog some "me time". Being able to work/walk with each dog individually for a shorter period of time than a shared walk is probably more valuable time for both of you. It works really well for us!

[Skruffy n Flea]

thank you for the replies

I'd walk them separately until you have each dog's individual issue under control. Hard enough training one reactive dog at a time. Trying to wrangle two at once is impossible - it invariably results in good behaviours getting ignored and bad ones getting reinforced when you're focusing on the other dog.

i considered this a prospect earlier tonight and now having read your reply, it cements the idea in my mind --- the bolded part has settled what's been rattling around in my head; notions that hadn't yet gelled...

excellent advice!

I will be watching this thread very closely as I too have the same issues but mine are compounded by the fact I walk four dogs on my own. I have one a 30 plus kilo standard poodle that is not dog friendly so we have the odd dog behind the fence problem and having to cross the street if another dog is approaching.

I walk at 5am in the morning so we don't come across to many dogs, this past week i have filled my pocket with Liver treats. Every time I get close to the fence barkers I try and redirect there attention to me. So far it is helping but I will be interested in what other people advice you to do.

Walking one at a time is not an option for me it would take four hours to give them all a one hour walk.

Good luck in working with your dogs.

i do not envy you and wish you all the luck in the world...

I ahve one reactive dog and one perfect dog ( :D ).

I ahve to walk them separately as the reactive one is more reactive when the other comes along. Walking separately just means that she can have 100% of my attention and I can focus on working on her issues. I can see what is coming up and put avoidance strategies in place before I need to deal with her being reactive. She is becoming lots and lots better. We can now have walks where we have 0 issues!! They're not all the time but they happen (compared to having walks that made me want to cry this is a brilliant thing!!).

I would steer clear of letting the dogs even get close to being worked up whenever you can. I see it a bit the way that new smoking ad talks - the more you practise somethign the harder it is to stop doing it, even if it is only sometimes. If you can see a situation to avoid then avoid it. Approach the threshold slowly so that you don't undo all the good work you've been doing!! To me it sounds like you're using lots of good strategies already.

I would strongly advise the walk separetly thing though. I also think it's good to give each dog some "me time". Being able to work/walk with each dog individually for a shorter period of time than a shared walk is probably more valuable time for both of you. It works really well for us!

well done! your technique has obviously worked and it seems you've also reminded me of another very important fact, that which i have bolded and i believe that byron's lack of trust and low confidence goes to his issue too...

thank you staranais and pretty miss emma for your much needed advice

mish13, as pretty miss emma suggested, work/walk with each dog individually for a shorter period of time --- your four dogs may each need an hour's exercise but with this new information and me already feeling less overwhelmed by my own situation, it's becoming clearer in my mind that this type of training mixes physical exercise with mental exercise and both combined will tire a dog in a shorter time than it takes to simply walk it. does that make sense?

i am a novice but i do a huge amount of reading and research and i knew all this stuff but it just got lost in me being overwhelmed and perplexed and embarrassed that it was doing my head in, so what staranais and pretty miss emma suggest is exactly the right thing to do

thanks to both of you

[mish13]

Thanks for the tips, will give them a try

[corvus]

Are you working with Byron when he's sub-threshold? Desensitising is not desensitising if he's reacting to the other dog by vocalising, lunging, even staring at it. Every time he barks or whines or stares he's saying that he is very anxious. Every time he sees this other dog and gets anxious, he is forming a habit. You run the risk of sensitising him to the other dog instead of desensitising. Have you read Control Unleashed or are you just using a version of LAT you've picked up somewhere? It is vitally important that these exercises be done sub-threshold. It is all to easy to use this as a management tool once the dog is already over-aroused, and for some dogs you might even get away with it, but for others you will teach them to react more instead. I know, because I have one of each!

Secondly, are you sure that Bella is correcting Byron? I think there's a chance that instead she is becoming over-aroused by Byron's behaviour and redirecting all her pent-up energy and anxiety on him. If that's happening it can be a very slippery slope. Every time she redirects on Byron she feels better. It works for her and she will keep doing it. With Byron already aroused you have on your hands a recipe for disaster. Regardless of the reason for it, you need to stop it from happening. That does not mean punishing it after it happens or redirecting them afterwards. It means preventing it from happening in the first place. If that means you split them up then that's what you do.

[Skruffy n Flea]

thanks for your input corvus --- it's a lot to take in!

ftr, i am now walking them separately --- bella only reacts to people; she is in love with people [an affection whore :tongue:] and she is the very same at the dog park. byron was surprisingly easy to walk; he didn't even notice rogue's house or that rogue was laying on the front lawn [with the gate open *holy crap*] --- it may have been that byron felt a tad out of sorts given this was his first venture out without bella! he did react to an approaching teenage boy and also to a dog being walked on the other side of the street --- it's difficult 'being ahead of his game' in that by the time i'm aware of a distraction, he is too and already on alert...

yesterday [sunday], rogue's owner was enjoying a few beers with his neighbours in their front yard; rogue was with him, off-leash and approached bella, not too badly, but also not in a manner i was comfortable with [we were 2 houses away] or with rogue's persistent keen effort to get to bella [she didn't seem too comfortable with rogue's attention either] so i put myself between them as john [rogue's owner] approached to manage and retrieve his dog.

during byron's walk, rogue and another off-leash mid-sized dog [from the 'party' yard] near rushed byron, which set him off with me holding him behind me while i stepped forward towards the approaching dogs [damn! i told john i was bringing byron out in about 15 minutes and could he leash rogue; he said he lost track of time!] --- john and the owner of the other dog both took control of their respective dogs. in retrospect, i should have taken a different route, because i set my dog up to fail.

this is gunna take some stamina on my part...

i am conscious also of the separation anxiety the one left at home experiences --- neither dog has been without the other for 18 months; they can deal together with me and/or OH being out, but that's an issue we've dealt with before [when we first got bella and we left her home alone] but we managed that out of her; my OH said [when i was walking byron] that for the whole time we were out, she moaned and whined, even when resting on her cushion. he did some treat training with her but as soon as that was over, she resumed her whining and moaning. byron on the other hand [when i had bella out] muffed [his little bark] a few times but nothing extreme

Are you working with Byron when he's sub-threshold?

yes and with both dogs. i use the 3 keys ['what's this?', 'look!', and 'this way'] inside the house [and out back] about 3 times a day for up to 10 minutes each session, treating each positive outcome [one [or another so sometimes 4 times per day] of those sessions plays out on my driveway, onto the footpath and the nature strip but for likely up to 20 minutes]. i also direct them to the 2 spots on the fenceline where they can see the respective neighbours' dogs, using the same keys --- i also practice 'conditioning' in that i'll say the 'key' and treat [word, treat; word, treat] a number of times so they associate that word with reward...

Desensitising is not desensitising if he's reacting to the other dog by vocalising, lunging, even staring at it. Every time he barks or whines or stares he's saying that he is very anxious.

i do miss the mark; what should or can i do when that happens?

Every time he sees this other dog and gets anxious, he is forming a habit. You run the risk of sensitising him to the other dog instead of desensitising.

understood and i am very aware of this possibility --- i direct him onto the nature strip to engage his nose in the grass and i reward that behaviour [with physical touch], then i use the keys as we move around and along the nature strip then if he hits his threshold, i take a deep breath, physically but calmly turn him away from the trigger, put him in a sit and then wait for his ears to hear me [key], for his eyes to see me [look] and his nose to re-engage with the treat [when he's worked up, anxious, he won't take a treat, he refuses it, or when near settled he will take it but drop it]; i persist, using my keys until it passes [once he's heard me, seen me and re-engaged] and he finally takes and eats the treat.

am i on the right track?

Have you read Control Unleashed or are you just using a version of LAT you've picked up somewhere? It is vitally important that these exercises be done sub-threshold. It is all to easy to use this as a management tool once the dog is already over-aroused, and for some dogs you might even get away with it, but for others you will teach them to react more instead. I know, because I have one of each!

i've not read that book, but i've read quite a bit about it, learning and taking tips from those using that technique. that sounds cheap i know, but i'm taking small steps to see if i can get it controlled first. as i've said above, i'm conditioning both dogs to learn that responding to my keys means reward --- word then treat, and then in the house without any distractions, and also on the driveway and in the front of my house where there are some distractions and although i'm not experiencing a resounding success, i do see some changes in both. having only just started walking them separately, my next step will be to separately condition them on the driveway and out front.

byron is a tough nut to crack; we don't know his background and my OH thinks he's a tad left of centre --- i think he lacks confidence and if he doesn't, he's just stubborn. for the moment, i'm hopeful for a positive future with the information i've obtained from the advice in this thread.

Secondly, are you sure that Bella is correcting Byron?

no, i'm not and yes, i do fear that i'm misreading her behaviour. BUT, when at the park and a dog is approaching byron, she will run just in front of byron and 'turn him' in another direction --- that's in a calm setting tho. at the fence, she barks at him close to his ears, she appears to nip at his cheek/neck [never engages], front paws his back, and runs from one side of his body to the other [she bahaves this way also when trying to engage byron in play --- byron will respond positively, or negatively with a sharp yap at her, and sometimes i'll step in just to stop her barking]. they both play very well together, always have, and sometimes it can seem a bit ramped up but never to a point where we think it's escalating. this latest behaviour tho, as i've only noticed this about her [when bryon's arguing at the fence] does have me concerned in that i can't decide if she is trying to redirect his behaviour...

I think there's a chance that instead she is becoming over-aroused by Byron's behaviour and redirecting all her pent-up energy and anxiety on him. If that's happening it can be a very slippery slope. Every time she redirects on Byron she feels better. It works for her and she will keep doing it. With Byron already aroused you have on your hands a recipe for disaster. Regardless of the reason for it, you need to stop it from happening. That does not mean punishing it after it happens or redirecting them afterwards. It means preventing it from happening in the first place. If that means you split them up then that's what you do.

yes, i understand, and it is playing on my mind --- when i first noticed her reaction to byron i just stood there and stared [this was at rogue's fence] barely an effort to control but in my defence and with what i've learned over the past several years about dog training and behaviours, i was taking mental notes as i watched her and how bryon reacted to her.

as i've said, i'm not certain whether she is attempting to correct his behaviour but this behaviour is only apparent when byron ramps it up at the fence [rogue's or our neighbours' fences] or when she's attempting to engage byron in play when he's not interested in playing [per earlier, he will sharply yap at her and that sends her on her way --- curiously, if he grumbles, she will persist and 'better than telly' ensues: zoomies like outa this world!].

i've observed on a number of ocassions that if bella is alerted to something [when byron isn't], she barely makes a sound --- she will bolt to investigate [the backyard] and might snort once or twice [and perhaps squeak if she hears the cat that lives over the back fence] but all in all, she will return to her cushion without fuss. IF BYRON tho is firstly alerted, she will follow in kind; barking, squeaking and rowrowrow-ing responding to bryon's raucous behaviour [sometimes to a much lesser degree if she's not certain as to what byron is reacting to].

so, yes, perhaps over-aroused and all that goes with it per your post and i am mindful that if not kept in check, could be a disaster waiting to happen.

is there anything, other than what i'm already doing, that could help me control both their behaviours? is walking them separately likely to have a flow-on effect in this regard?

thanks again

[corvus]

I think you should get some professional help, even if it's just to make sure you're on the right track. It's really hard to tell what's going on over the internet. Perhaps you could get a hold of the CU book or even better, the dvds. The CU_Dogs Yahoo list is also active and a good place to lurk if you want to learn how to apply various techniques for reactive behaviour. The book is assumed knowledge, though.

it's difficult 'being ahead of his game' in that by the time i'm aware of a distraction, he is too and already on alert...

I appreciate that! Leslie McDevitt says that if you play Look At That enough you can turn distracting things into a cue to play LAT. So eventually you don't have to cue it, because the dog notices the distraction and automatically looks back to you and starts playing LAT. In the meantime, vigilance pays off I guess.

i use the 3 keys ['what's this?', 'look!', and 'this way'] inside the house [and out back] about 3 times a day for up to 10 minutes each session, treating each positive outcome [one [or another so sometimes 4 times per day] of those sessions plays out on my driveway, onto the footpath and the nature strip but for likely up to 20 minutes]. i also direct them to the 2 spots on the fenceline where they can see the respective neighbours' dogs, using the same keys --- i also practice 'conditioning' in that i'll say the 'key' and treat [word, treat; word, treat] a number of times so they associate that word with reward...

I'm not entirely sure what you're doing, but it sounds good.

i do miss the mark; what should or can i do when that happens?

There are differing opinions on this. What I do kind of depends on the situation. If we can get more distance between us and the thing they are going off at, that's a good start, even if you have to drag them. I tend towards just waiting for them to calm down enough to think again. But if they aren't getting any calmer after, say, 30 seconds, I will try to get more distance. That's my dogs, though, and they tend to come down pretty fast. There are some TTouch techniques that some people use, but I don't know how to do them. Might be worth looking into, though.

i direct him onto the nature strip to engage his nose in the grass and i reward that behaviour [with physical touch], then i use the keys as we move around and along the nature strip then if he hits his threshold, i take a deep breath, physically but calmly turn him away from the trigger, put him in a sit and then wait for his ears to hear me [key], for his eyes to see me [look] and his nose to re-engage with the treat [when he's worked up, anxious, he won't take a treat, he refuses it, or when near settled he will take it but drop it]; i persist, using my keys until it passes [once he's heard me, seen me and re-engaged] and he finally takes and eats the treat.

am i on the right track?

It sounds like it. Keep up the conditioning with those keys and you would expect to see him re-engage with you more quickly over time. If that is not happening, my guess is you need more distance. More distance is often worth a go, I think. It often surprises me how drastically behaviour changes with distance.

byron is a tough nut to crack; we don't know his background and my OH thinks he's a tad left of centre --- i think he lacks confidence and if he doesn't, he's just stubborn. for the moment, i'm hopeful for a positive future with the information i've obtained from the advice in this thread.

Good on you. You seem very dedicated. I think it's a good idea to observe very carefully. If in doubt, try more distance. I sometimes think it's better to do nothing until you're confident on what path to take. Maybe that's because one of my dogs finds a huge amount of things rewarding, so it's easy to accidentally reward behaviour with knee jerk reactions.

Secondly, are you sure that Bella is correcting Byron?

no, i'm not and yes, i do fear that i'm misreading her behaviour. BUT, when at the park and a dog is approaching byron, she will run just in front of byron and 'turn him' in another direction --- that's in a calm setting tho. at the fence, she barks at him close to his ears, she appears to nip at his cheek/neck [never engages], front paws his back, and runs from one side of his body to the other [she bahaves this way also when trying to engage byron in play --- byron will respond positively, or negatively with a sharp yap at her, and sometimes i'll step in just to stop her barking].

That behaviour could just as easily be an attempt to control Byron, and may be prompted by Bella's distress at Byron's behaviour. All that over-arousal can really upset other dogs. I think it's always good to give dogs something to do when they are getting upset. I cue easy behaviours like a sit or down and then cue them to take a breath and we move on to eye contact, LAT, paw, target. Massage can help calm them.

when i first noticed her reaction to byron i just stood there and stared [this was at rogue's fence] barely an effort to control but in my defence and with what i've learned over the past several years about dog training and behaviours, i was taking mental notes as i watched her and how bryon reacted to her.

Mental notes are good!

so, yes, perhaps over-aroused and all that goes with it per your post and i am mindful that if not kept in check, could be a disaster waiting to happen.

My boys are BFF, but even they have got into fights once or twice when both were very aroused. They have never hurt each other and once they have had a moment to calm down it's all having a calming shake and let's be friends again. Still, best not to have to break up a fight! I think calming routines are very helpful. Erik is a touch reactive and gets fired up in the blink of an eye, but he's very quick to come back to me, offer a down, and wait for further instructions. I've had him come over and fold into a down in front of me moments after a scary fight with a dog we didn't know very well. He wasn't really thinking, but it goes to show the power of conditioning. I lean on downs a lot. It gives me the time I need to decide what to do next and keeps Erik out of trouble and calms him down while I'm deciding. It's not uncommon for him to down automatically in situations where I would have cued it if he'd given me the chance.

With Bella, perhaps give her a Kong or a pig's ear when you take Byron out without her. My boys settle better on their own if they have something to chew on.

[Skye GSD]

i've thwarted their access to the 'peek thru' part for the boxer and bulldog but that won't 'teach' him to stop his behaviour --- as for the pugx, it would take a new fence and again, that's not going to teach him.

Please be careful when walking your swf's that they are not sniffing too close to fences that contain other dogs. My friend in Melbourne was walking her swf a few years ago and was chatting with her friend as they walked along. The lead went tight and when she looked back, her dog had been dragged under the fence by either a pitbull/X or a GSD/X (two dogs were in the yard) and before she could do anything, her little one had been ripped to shreds by both dogs. It has taken her a long time to get over it and is perhaps food for thought for those with little dogs that think they don't have to be as vigilant as those with big dogs.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Skye GSD

[Skruffy n Flea]

corvus, you make me think and thank you! your reply opens up other possible conditions in my dogs' behaviour that are vaguely dawning on me as i read your post i can't fully appreciate it all yet but after the week i've had, 1stly walking them separately and 2ndly discovering the level of separation anxiety each suffers, it will likely take me several weeks before i can put it all into perspective --- for the moment, i have enuf intel to make headway and with persistence and consistency, ima gunna give it my very best shot...

i'm considering implementing clicker training too because i'm concerned about my repetitive use of key words adding to their level of arousal...

professional help? yup! [for the dogs too *giggles*] but that only happens when i feel defeated --- that's when i hit the interwebz and research 'til pennies drop, ideas take shape, and techniques manifest...

i'll revisit this thread over the coming weeks to report my success [or lack thereof] and or to read again the replies and or to seek further advice when and if changes in behaviour occur

oh, and i've joined the cu_dogs yahoo group ;)

[Skruffy n Flea]

i've thwarted their access to the 'peek thru' part for the boxer and bulldog but that won't 'teach' him to stop his behaviour --- as for the pugx, it would take a new fence and again, that's not going to teach him.

Please be careful when walking your swf's that they are not sniffing too close to fences that contain other dogs. My friend in Melbourne was walking her swf a few years ago and was chatting with her friend as they walked along. The lead went tight and when she looked back, her dog had been dragged under the fence by either a pitbull/X or a GSD/X (two dogs were in the yard) and before she could do anything, her little one had been ripped to shreds by both dogs. It has taken her a long time to get over it and is perhaps food for thought for those with little dogs that think they don't have to be as vigilant as those with big dogs.

noted and thanks for the reminder --- i have in the past allowed my dogs to approach fences along the footpath, but now they'll be confined to the nature strip only...

my heart goes out to your friend