I Need Help And Guidance :(

[Guest HarperGD]

I need help and guidance and I am confident that the users on this forum will be able to at least give me some good advice.

For those of you who frequent the Puppy Problems thread you may have seen a few of my posts regarding my new mini poodle pup Harper.

Harper is honestly gorgeous and I feel we are somehow connected. We have definitely bonded and I adore him.

However, as you may also have seen in my posts we have had a few issues with him adapting to being seperated from us. He is only an 8 week old pup, from a beautiful family where his breeder was always around, doting on the dogs and giving them lots of cuddles. As a result, he is the most affectionate pup I have ever encountered, however he is also very attached to us too.

This has meant that the times we have tried to leave him, he has cried, barked, screamed and basically made us absolutely petrified that we are going to get evicted.

We are aware that the best way for dog's to get over their "seperation anxiety" is to ignore their barking, praise them for being quiet etc. etc. but our apartment complex just does not allow for us to let him bark for an hour+, he can be heard through both walls, through the floor and down the corridor.

On top of this, he is my first puppy. I don't think I really truly realised what looking after a puppy was like and I have been suffering what I can only describe as "post puppy depression." Crying all the time when it is just him and I alone together and feeling completely trapped.

I have been unable to go to the bathroom without him crying, let alone leave the apartment and the enormity of the situation seriously hit me like a ton of bricks.

For the last few days I have been a nervous wreak and my poor partner is very upset to see me like this.

In light of this, and because we're worried we are going to be asked to get rid of him by building manager, we contacted the breeder and asked her to organise for him to be rehomed.

A retired couple, who live on a nice big property and were on a waiting list for the next litter by the breeder's other bitch put their hand up and offered to take him off us.

I spoke to them on the phone and they seem very nice but I just have a knot in my stomach about this.

I feel like deep down Harper was put on this Earth to be our dog and to grow old with our family, not someone else's.

But I just don't know what to do about our living situation and his anxiety etc.

I'm trying to follow my instincts and do what's right here but I just don't know what to do. I'm sure that Harper will learn to cope on his own if he's given the chance, that maybe he just needs time, but....... Yeah, I'm so confused.

What makes this harder is the reason this pup joined the family is because my partner is in the army and is about to be deployed to Afghanistan. Harper was supposed to be my companion dog.

My partner is devestated too - he's in love with this dog. They're wrestle buddies. He adores him and Harper adores my partner too.

I know this is long and rambling but I just want to hear some words of advice from others.

Perhaps there are some owners on here who may have had a similar reaction when they brought their first pup home?

The couple who agreed to take him are driving up to get him on Saturday so we have to make a decision soon.

I'm in love with this dog. I don't know what to do :'(

Thanks all who reply and who make it through this whole long post. I really appreciate any opinions or comments.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Sorry to hear this hasn't worked out for you - I've been rescuing and fostering dogs for quite a few years (over 150 foster dogs now).

I rarely take puppies or dogs under 2 yrs of age. This is because I work full time and find that no matter what I do - 1 hour's exercise in the morning, rotating of toys, I do have my own dogs here - nothing is enough for these young dogs.

Not sure what your work regime is and how you cope with having a puppy. I would have thought 8 weeks is a bit young to leave the breeder but also, Poodles are a bit prone to separation anxiety. This could just be a case of the wrong type of dog in the wrong situation but (i'm sure I'll get flamed for this) if you work full time then generally unless you can make lots of arrangements, having a puppy is not right for most people.

I'm sure you are also filled with trepidation and emotion about your partner going to Afghanistan, I know I would be and sometimes we can unintentionally transfer a lot of emotion onto something else. I think your heart is telling you that you love this dog and I'm sure you do very much but I think you also have to think about what is best for the dog. Ultimately, no matter how much we love them, once they start impacting on our lives to a huge extent for whatever reason (behavioural and medical demands for example), they can just become too much to cope with. Some people dump them in the pound at this point but good people try and find them a home that will suit their needs better.

I'm sure if the breeder had a better solution she would have walked you through it. As hard as it is, it is better to let go now I think.

[corvus]

Ignoring a crying puppy may work, but it's not the only or the 'best' way to teach a puppy to accept being alone. Every puppy I've ever had anything to do with starts out with the separation distress thing. With Kivi I trained him to begin to cope with it by sitting with him beside his pen until he fell asleep, then making sure I was there when he woke up before he got scared that I'd left him. Seriously, it only took about 4 days of this and he was starting to trust that I wasn't going to abandon him and he could in fact go to sleep in his pen without me.

Erik was a bit older when I got him (9 1/2 weeks) and it only took about 2 1/2 days before he was okay about being in his pen without me right by him.

Google Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol. It's a list of exercises to do daily with a dog to help them learn to accept things that happen to them. It's structured so that you gradually introduce them to harder and harder things to accept and as long as they stay calm they get rewarded. It's very adaptable and you can change the exercises to focus on teaching your puppy to accept separation. If nothing else it will give you an idea of how to tackle this in a systematic manner and how to break down what you want into very small steps.

ETA Here's a clicker training version of training a puppy to be alone:

Edited June 9, 2011 by corvus

[persephone]

This must be so hard for you... and for harper. I know from your posts how much you love him.

It would be very hard for a puppy so much involved with people at the breeders have wonderful new owners... then get left alone . He's a baby puppy, and what he's doing is pretty normal ...baby puppies bone very quickly with people... and love having company.

My first thought would be to contact a professional trainer/behaviourist (recommended by folks on here) to personally assess the situation and give you help- but doing this before Saturday would be almost impossible now

Rehoming may be the best option for you .. it would remove all teh continual worry about neighbours/landlord. Very sad, but perhaps you can get an older dog for a companion? An older dog who is used to being alone ..and who will provide you with comfort and security , without all the 'growing pains' ?

Thinking of you ....

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

When I was growing up my Aunt and Uncle owned a poodle, he was a lovely little dog but I was always horrified when he carried on like a pork chop if they disappeared from his view to go to the toilet or something. He was 14 when he passed away and never changed. It put me off poodles for many years, I did rescue a poodle in 2009 and he was an older boy who'd had a sad life, he was wonderful and a friend adopted him from me. He would have been fine as an only dog but I'd say he was a bit of an exception.

Having a dog in a unit is pretty hard (I've tried it) but far harder if they are noisy, people don't want to and shouldn't have to, put up with too much noise. It's really important to get the right dog that will fit in unless you can move (like me) but that doesn't necessarily change sep anx - it worked with the dog I'd adopted thankfully.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I'm so sorry for you.

But if you're feeling that this couple can give him the home that will be right for him then it may be the best for everyone. You can't let your own health suffer for this little one, especially when it sounds like there is a loving well thought out option available for him.

I agree with persephone (who always has wonderous advice and understanding!!) that maybe an older dog will suit you. My first dog was 9yo when I adopted her and it made for a wonderful first dog experience - I would recommend going for slightly younger than 9yo as it does mean you don't necessarily have a long time with them (although we're hanging on strong at the moment)!!

Puppies are hard work, I've just gone through it my first time. 19 months down the track it is easier, but it is still work. You can only do the best you can for this little man and making a decision like this is much braver and better for him in the long run than having him end up in a shelter or having all of you be miserable.

Thinking of you.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

I made a thread titled Post Puppy Depression omg not even a month ago!! (feels like YEARS), you can read it here. There are loads of threads on DOL about people having issues like yours if you do a search, but that thread is a great start, so many amazing people posted their stories in there and it gave me the courage to keep trucking.

Scooter was the same when I first got him. He's a Papillon, and was raised by a very loving family in a wonderful warm environment and I thought I'd never get through it and contemplated giving him away for almost 3 weeks. I was worried my housemates were going to kick me out, I thought my boyfriend hated him and we just didn't seem to like each other very much.

If you want to keep him, there are heaps of different tactics you can try. Firstly, stop trying to live up to all the books you've read. The immense pressure I felt to get Scooter chew toy trained and potty trained and crate trained straight away almost ruined everything. Having your own puppy is SO DIFFERENT to how you think it will be and you do constantly worry that you've f***ed up and the dog will never recover. Guess what? They do. You can see in my signature ticker that Scooter is still definitely a pup, but he is way, way better now. He wees in the one spot outside, settles in his crate all day when I'm at work and is perfectly happy spending what measly amount of time I can spare on him with me, he is chew toy trained, has only chewed the corner of a book and one power cable in over 2 months (has it really been that long?! far out LOL). We do clicker training, he eats from my hand, kongs, a bowl, walks on a lead with no trouble and we're starting to finally get the hang of pooing outside (well, he, not I)! He's stopped mouthing unless he's super revved up, tugs like crazy, knows tricks. He's a very drivey pup tho, and does get that look in his eyes sometimes. I'm working on his off switch at the moment .

It IS managable. Trust me. When I got Scooter I had all these amazing plans and things were going to be great. Fast foward and no, we're not showing, we're not training in puppy obedience, and my partner is very sick in hospital so I'm doing everything on my own without the help I thought I would need to survive. I was 100% sure that by the time he was this age he'd either be dead, ruined or no longer in my care. Guess what? You adapt and survive. If you love that little dog (which you do, it's blindingly obvious :D) you WILL cope. You just haven't learned how yet.

He's asleep in his crate after a 10 minute walk, tug session, toileting outside and having some kibble and a greenie for dinner. He cried for 30 seconds, maximum. You WILL get there.

If you need to vent, feel free to PM me.

E x

PS: I'm actually thinking maybe another puppy one day wouldn't be so bad. I think I'm ill, LOL.

PPS: Talking to a behaviourist might be a really good option for you. I'm lucky to work in the animal industry and talked to a few DOLers about puppies too and it really helps you get a better perspective on things. NOTHING prepares you for how freakin helpless they are!

[aussielover]

to you guys

Harper may be the kind of dog that needs to be with people all the time and is less suitable for a working family. What hours do you work and how long will he be on his own for?

Obviously a really hard situation for you, and it is obvious that you have his best interests at heart.

How old is Harper? This is a common problem in the first few weeks and a lot of puppies settle down after that at around 12 weeks old. My puppy barked for around 30 mins at a time if we attempted to leave her. However this only lasted 2 weeks. If your pup is barking for 1hr +, it does seem like a rather long time and perhaps indicates he may be more prone to separation stress.

It is certainly a diffucult situation because you want to give the pup a chance to settle down, but also give him the best chance of finding a new home.

I second the recommendation to have him assessed by a behaviourist, to put your mind at rest at least.

Maybe an older puppy or dog would be more suitable. I know when I got my aussie pup (my previous dog) at 5 months, she was a lot easier than my 8 week old lab who i got last year. So even a few months can make a difference.

Also i know a lot of people recommend poodles as apartment dogs, and I'm sure that many of them make great apartment dogs, but I think in general they are a higher energy, higher drive breed than many expect, which can translate in anxiety if these needs are not met.

Good luck with whatever you decide

[persephone]

This is a common problem in the first few weeks and a lot of puppies settle down after that at around 12 weeks

And that is a loooong time if you live in apartments with thin walls .

I agree with you about a lot of poodles not being couch potatoes

[Christina]

Let the puppy go. If you are crying & depressed this is not good for either of you.

Forget the behaviourist, this is normal puppy behaviour for some. Pups are variable in how they are leaving home, mum & litter but there is nothing abnormal here. Some carry on & some don't. As you are feeling at present I would forget about having a dog. Any dog.

If you like cats consider getting a kitten, or even 2. They are much easier, more independant & so much fun. They are so loving but do not fret when they are alone, not noisy as long as they are desexed & they should be & will keep you entertained for hours. May suit you better.

[aussielover]

This is a common problem in the first few weeks and a lot of puppies settle down after that at around 12 weeks

And that is a loooong time if you live in apartments with thin walls .

I agree with you about a lot of poodles not being couch potatoes

Totally!!!

I wanted to give mine back after 2 days

I did actually go and speak to the neighbours when i realised it was going to be an issue (my prevoius dog didn;t bark and being clueless about puppies I didn't think of it before )and apologised in advance for any noise they might hear and asked them to be patient, hopefully it would stop in a few weeks. They were nice and understanding about it, especially considering that she would bark when put to bed at night and said they couldn't hear her barking anyway (probably lying, she was sooo loud!), although we don't in an apartment...

[Ruftybear]

What an absolutely awful thing for you to have to deal with. I can't offer any advice better than you have already got, but I wanted to send you hugs.

Some puppies can be so demanding, while others seem to need less attention. I must admit that I haven't had that many problems with puppies because I was able to have someone home with them until they settled, and we were never a single dog household, so they didn't have the issues with being alone.

Good luck with a decision that isn't going to be an easy thing for you or your partner.

[lovemesideways]

If you are looking for other options, other than giving him up, then why not send a trainer a email? Just asking if they may have any other solutions for you. There is no "one way" to train a dog! There are other ways to teach him that being on his own is ok, other than just ignoring him when he cries!

Or even if you do the same training but lower the intensity. Example being, rather than popping him into his crate and then leaving the room straight away, you start the training with a lower level. So, he goes into his crate and you sit there against the crate with your back to it ignoring him. So you are right there, but you're just not paying him any attention. When he settles down and is quiet and calm for at least 10 seconds, turn around and make a HUGE fuss over him!

I don't know if this would work for you, but its just a example of how you can differ your training if what you are trying is not working.

I'm sure you will decide whatever is best for your puppy.

Just quick edit to add, I live in sydney and if you're anywhere need me and want to meet up and have a chat I'm happy to help. So feel free to PM me !

Edited June 9, 2011 by lovemesideways

[tlc]

So sorry you are going through this. I'm sure in the long run you will make the right decision for yourself and your puppy especially with all the great advice give here. Not all puppies are the same and not all go through what you have explained in you OP.

My oldest was pretty cruisy but I was working from home at the time and he came with me everywhere I went. My second girl was a nightmare, I had a different job working away from home for only 5 hours at a time but she was too tiny to be left with Cooper during the day so she had an inside set up and Cooper was outside, she screamed the moment I left for work and I could hear her when I pulled up in the drive way when I got home, it absolutley broke my heart that she was so upset to be left but there was nothing else I could do, we got through those first few weeks and when she was a bit bigger she went outside with Cooper and we never looked back.

Then along came Tully, I tell you if every puppy could be like her, she was amazing, she never cried not for a second for anything, she was the cruisiest puppy I have ever seen ever! Then along came my youngest one well weren't we in for a shock, night time he cried constantly till I got a crate and put it right next to the bed and I think for the next month I slept with my hand over the side of the bed so he knew I was right there. During the day he was fine as he was left with one of the other dogs so he had company but in general he is still a sooky boy even now especially if he thinks I might be going to leave him. Out walking he doesn't let me out of his sight, he is first back when I call to put leads on and just generally a real mommas boy, I thought by 3 he would be grown out of it but I think it is just the way he is wired.

So I guess my point is they are all so different, and also we are all so different, even the few difficult phases went through with mine (all 4 puppies under 18 months) not once did I ever think about rehoming but thats me. I know lots of people who have done it for lots of different reasons some I agreed with and some not. But like I said you have to do the right think for you. I really sympathize with your situation as it is easy to see you really love this little puppy. My thought is if you stick it out in a month or so you will be wondering why you even thought about it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[jamesanddean]

I have been reading your posts since you picked up Harper and it has bought back memories of when we bought our boy home (he is 3 and a half yo now). We were first time dog owners too and I remember the feelings you are going through. I am not an expert in advising you what to do in relation to training (fortunately there are others on here more qualified to do that), but can give my feedback on how I felt at the time.

The first few days (and weeks) can be quite overwhelming (particularly after the first night) where you wonder if you had done the right thing. My advice is if you feel like that in the early days persevere - dogs are intelligent and adapt quickly into their new homes if done right. The difficult first days will pass quickly and once you get Harper and yourself into a routine it is a lot easier. How you are feeling now will pass and it will get easier if you decide to keep him.

If you decide the right thing is for him to go to a new home, don't feel guilty or bad about the decision. It will be the best thing for both of you at this time, and doesn't stop you from getting a new puppy when the time and situation is right.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Liath]

My puppy is 8 1/2 weeks old, we received her on Friday afternoon. I know exactly where your coming from. Mykah whinges, screams, howls, barks when placed in her enclosure. I have been placing her in there as much as possible when I am home, and only getting her out when she has been quiet for 30 seconds or more! Today she was quiet for about 5 minutes. I know its not much but its a start. I am dreading my neighbours complaining about her barking etc when I get home but so far so good. Yesterday she was nearly hourse from crying so much. I feel sorry for her but its something she has to get used to. Night time is the worst. I have resorted to sleeping on a matress near her crate just so we can get some sleep! Worst case she ends up sleeping with me on the floor. Most puppies go through it, taken from mum and siblings, they dont like being seprated from someone who they see as their carer.

My cav was the same tho, took her a few weeks to settle down, now she couldnt care less where I am, just as long as she has a biscuit she is happy. LOL

There is one question you need to ask yourself. Will you regret giving your puppy up? If the answer is yes then dont. You will always wonder 'what if' Go talk to your neighbours, they may not hear as much as you think or they may tolerate the ruckus knowing your working on the problem.

Atm both mine are sleeping at my feet, mykah using Sash as a pillow. Adorable....only when sleeping!

[poodlefan]

I feel like deep down Harper was put on this Earth to be our dog and to grow old with our family, not someone else's.

I'm thinking that that feeling might not be right.

Harper, the right dog for you will make you happy, not nervous anxious and depressed whenever you're alone together. The "OMG what have I done" moments shouldn't be constant.

I have been tempted a couple of times, to tell you to breathe, relax and not wind yourself up so tight about everything Harper does. However, that may not be who you are.

To be frank if I were looking for a more laid back poodle, I would not choose one of Harper's colouring. It is possible that he is quite highly strung and not a candidate for a lot of time alone.

By contrast, my first poodle Ted, was on his own five days a week, all day, from the age of 11 weeks.

My guess is that this may be a combination of great owner, great dog, but not necessarily for one another.

Clearly neither of you are finding it easy to 'fit' with one another.

My honest advice is to let him go, look around and go for a colour more likely to be of solid temperament (ie. black) and to wait until you have a yard to get a mini poodle - a yard gives them a space to explore without you and time wiithout you is important so a dog can learn to be alone. They are an active breed and without space to run and play, nervousness can just ramp up.

Honestly, it doesn't have to be this hard. You need to relax more and to find a dog that will fit more easily into your home. The right pup will be out there.

Edited June 9, 2011 by poodlefan

[Guest HarperGD]

Thank you so much for all your replies. It's a very tough decision, made even tougher by the voicemail I got from the other family tonight saying how much they are looking forward to picking him up on Saturday.....

For the record, I work part time - 6hr shifts, 4 days a week and in 2 weeks time my partner is on leave and then i have 3 weeks of leave as well. Assuming Harper can hold out until then we might be ok..

He is a star at night in his crate by our bed, goes in, curls up and only wakes us to go to the toilet. A few nights ago I was still putting my hand against the bars to lull him to sleep but tonight (yes I'm in bed writing this!) and last night not a peep.

My partner also said he went downstairs this arvo to see what Harper would do and he came back to him just sittig quietly under the table, so now we're wondering if he is slowly starting to adjust.

I'm still so conflicted. This couple are retired and have just lost their poodle of 13 years, so I know Harper would slot right in. I also feel like he can maybe sense my nervous energy and that's not helping thing... I'm not sure.

Anyway I will sleep on it now, obviously will have to make a decision by tomorrow.

If I do end up rehoming him and regreting it then that will be my problem, I will still know that he is happy.

Oh and I'm not interested in replacing him with another dog or a kitten. It's either going to be Harper or nothing.

[poodlefan]

Oh and I'm not interested in replacing him with another dog or a kitten. It's either going to be Harper or nothing.

That's a lot of pressure to put on both him and you.

[Alkhe]

You poor thing, I only really lurk at these forums and occasionally post but this thread tugs at my heart strings

If I were you, I wouldn't rule out another dog, and I agree with others' posts that maybe an older dog would be best. I brought home my 3 year old toy poodle about 3 months ago, and it has been an absolute dream - having been through the puppy stage a few times before I knew I didn't want to do it again (at the moment, anyway) and a young but non-puppy dog has been great. Puppies can be so hard, and for a first time dog owner, it just makes things infinitely more challenging and heart wrenching.

I'm sure you'll make the right decision, and it does sound as though whatever happens, Harper will be fine.

(PS, Harper is such an awesome name, it's top of the list for my son/male dog names - my Maggie would've been Harper if she were a he!)