Another Blue Stafford Topic....

[NuggyWuggy]

I know there are always heaps of discussions here about blue coloured Staffords, the breed Standard requiring a black nose but this being genetically impossible etc.

Well I wasn't satisfied with this contradicting Standard, so I contacted the ANKC about this and didn't get very far with them - they won't do anything other than what The Kennel Club UK does. I contacted them and didn't get much further - but I decided to contact the SBT Breed Council of G.B. & N.I., and after they raised my question at a Breed Council meeting in March the Public Relations Officer replied to me with this email, in part;

"The issue was raised concerning black noses on Blue Staffords, and the following conclusion was reached.

Whilst it was accepted that blue dogs cannot have pure black noses genetically but frequently have ones of an extremely dark charcoal colour, this is virtually mpossible to differentiate under normal juding conditions. Furthermore the blackness of a dog's nose may vary visually depending on how wet or dry it is. Thus while recognising an anomaly in the Standard it was felt that no action should be taken. This was accepted by the Breed Council. The Breed Council is not advising any changes to the standard but if you are unhappy with the standard you must seek the support of one of your local Australian Clubs. If the Australian Clubs agreed that a change in the standard were needed this could be sought through your national canine council (not quite sure of how this works in relation to the state councils). Alternatively if the Australian Clubs were unanimous for a change they could open discussions with the Breed Council. These discussion would be largely on an informal basis."

So they know the situation, but are not going to do anything about adjusting the Standard.

My question is, will the SBT breeders that stay well clear of the blue coloured dogs continue to view matters the same way, knowing that the Breed Council are happy to leave things the way they are as far as the "anomaly" in the Standard is concerned?

I personally think that if they just added a note to the Standard, for example, "a dark slate nose is accepted in a dog with a blue coat colour" it would atleast show people that they first of all know that blue Staffords can't have black noses, and secondly that they accept this.

Although I'm not satisfied with the contradiction in the Standard, I'm happy to have heard from the horses mouth, so to speak, that the Breed Council are aware of it and they are apparently happy for blue Staffords without black noses to be part of the breed.

[shortstep]

That is not how I read it.

So is it a black or a dark or just more meaningless dribble as they really don't like blues. LOL

To me it is just more proof that often standards have everything to do with politics and fashion and little to do with science.

[SwaY]

thank you for taking the time to email and get an answer.

I don't like the reply and I would still push the point if SBT were my breed.

I am fortunate that my standard allows for the blue nose.

I do want the words re-worded as it says may be then says always black except in blues

Colour:

Blues- colour varies from light grey to deep slate, the nose and eyes may be blue.

In all above colours white is only permissible on chest and feet, but it is not desirable even there. Nose always black, except in blues and harlequins. Eyes and nails preferably dark.

[SwaY]

How can they not tell the difference?

[Diva]

The AST dealt with this issue in the extension to their standard.

[NuggyWuggy]

That is not how I read it.

So is it a black or a dark or just more meaningless dribble as they really don't like blues. LOL

To me it is just more proof that often standards have everything to do with politics and fashion and little to do with science.

Shortstep, I'm just glad that they have progressed from saying that blue Staffords can have black noses and do, to acknowledging that this is infact genetically impossible. Whether they like them or not, who knows, I just think they are happy with the way things are otherwise they would do something about it.

[SwaY]

The AST dealt with this issue in the extension to their standard.

Judges are taught from the Standard not the extension.

[NuggyWuggy]

How can they not tell the difference?

I thought the same thing. There are plenty of other indicators as to whether the nose is blue or black anyway, seen as all of the eumelanin in the nose, coat, eyes, etc has been affected in the case of a blue Stafford - there'd be no black on the dog anywhere.

The reply is frustrating and I would like to pursue it, but the way I understand it is that I would need all the state member bodies of the ANKC to support it and push for it too otherwise I wouldn't get much further than where I am now.

[Sandra777]

I think you will find that the PRIMARY reason why ethical breeders shun blues has very little reason to do with the colour of the nose.

[Diva]

The AST dealt with this issue in the extension to their standard.

Judges are taught from the Standard not the extension.

if the extension is not used in training judges, why does the ANKC site say that

'Extended Standards are compiled purely for the purpose of training Australian

judges and students of the breed'?

Edited June 9, 2011 by Diva

[tdierikx]

I think you will find that the PRIMARY reason why ethical breeders shun blues has very little reason to do with the colour of the nose.

Someone has hit it right on the nose... so to speak... *grin*

There are quite a few reasons why Blue is not fully integrated into the standard for Staffords...

T.

[NuggyWuggy]

I think you will find that the PRIMARY reason why ethical breeders shun blues has very little reason to do with the colour of the nose.

I think you will find that the PRIMARY reason why ethical breeders shun blues has very little reason to do with the colour of the nose.

Someone has hit it right on the nose... so to speak... *grin*

There are quite a few reasons why Blue is not fully integrated into the standard for Staffords...

T.

True, there are many other reasons why breeders stay clear of the blue dogs, though I'm focusing on the nose colour issue in this topic. I'm sure I read in another topic a while ago where a breeder said if the Standard was changed and blue noses accepted, they would consider adding a good qualty blue to their breeding program (and there have been some blues titled so they can't all be completely woeful), from what I can gather this particular breeder is ethical - so my question is more directed at those breeders that feel this way, and whether or not what I was told via the email is enough for them to consider a blue dog.

[Sandra777]

IF I found a good quality blue I would use it in a breeding programme even though it's blue nose is not strictly speaking in the standard, so this is not a reason either.

I would have a look at the blues which are champions and study their actual virtues. Then have a look at their show record - have they ever won in top company, have they ever been placed at a breed speciality, what is the standard of competition they have been shown against. The fact that a dog is a champion is really no reflection on it's actual quality.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Sandra777

[TessiesTracey]

Can I cross-post the response you received on another bullbreed specific forum (or perhaps if you are a member there, you might want to?).

Only reason I ask, is because this topic has been brought up before to the GB & NI Breed Council, (I was majorly concerned after I emailed the UK Kennel Club asking the same pertinent questions regarding blue coat, blue nose issue and got a rather ridiculous reply), I feel it is important to let other Stafford enthusiasts see what the Breed Council has to say.

ETA Most may well have already had the information from the Breed Council anyway...

Edited June 9, 2011 by TessiesTracey

[NuggyWuggy]

Can I cross-post the response you received on another bullbreed specific forum (or perhaps if you are a member there, you might want to?).

Only reason I ask, is because this topic has been brought up before to the GB & NI Breed Council, (I was majorly concerned after I emailed the UK Kennel Club asking the same pertinent questions regarding blue coat, blue nose issue and got a rather ridiculous reply), I feel it is important to let other Stafford enthusiasts see what the Breed Council has to say.

ETA Most may well have already had the information from the Breed Council anyway...

Sure, that's fine with me.

[SoL]

Nose leather notwithstanding, I have not yet met a blue Stafford that has, in my opinion, been a good example of the breed standard. For this reason alone, I have not and will not include one into my program even if the standard were changed. If a blue were to be thrown from the lines I have used, then I would most probably desex it and pet home it (obviously for at least $55000 because it was "rare" and came from "champion lines" :rolleyes:)

The answer you have received is a complete cop out. How can they not tell between a blue/charcoal/slate (call it whatever you will) or black nose, wet or dry!!! Basically they either don't want to rock the boat or they merely can't be arsed to address the issue properly.

[SwaY]

The AST dealt with this issue in the extension to their standard.

Judges are taught from the Standard not the extension.

if the extension is not used in training judges, why does the ANKC site say that

'Extended Standards are compiled purely for the purpose of training Australian

judges and students of the breed'?

I don't know why, I just know what they are taught.

[becks]

For something like this to be changed (and I speak after being involved in the addition of the white colour to the mini schnauzer breed standard) firstly the breed club members need to ask for the colour to be discussed at a club AGM and the club members need to vote on whether they want a change in the breed standard to happen - this may involve a postal vote being organised for all club members, or a show of hands at the meeting. EACH breed club must do this, until a majority of the clubs agree to get together to request the KC consider a change to the breed standard - the BS subcommittee will then look into it (and will look into whether there are health implications - eg for the merle chis, white mini schnauzers).

Things are not going to change just because a couple of people from the other side of the world send an email

[shortstep]

Things are not going to change just because a couple of people from the other side of the world send an email

I would agree with that. If knowing they look like a bunch of dog breeders with no understanding of the colour genetics (which also is making a case for others to question if they understand things like disease genetics) is not enough to make them consider cleaning up obvious errors in the standard, then nothing will.

But not to worry, very soon all breeds will have government appointed panels to assure protection of welfare concerns in breeding purebred dogs. Addressing lack of knowledge of genetics that is evident in the standards will be one of the first areas that are addressed.

Edited June 9, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Nose leather notwithstanding, I have not yet met a blue Stafford that has, in my opinion, been a good example of the breed standard. For this reason alone, I have not and will not include one into my program even if the standard were changed. If a blue were to be thrown from the lines I have used, then I would most probably desex it and pet home it

Well I have to admire your honesty, to admit that a even a blue dog from your lines would not be a dog that in your opinion was a 'good example' of the breed.

So do you figure that blue colour gene is directly linked to 'bad example' genes?

Edited June 9, 2011 by shortstep