Breed Prejudice

[ruthless]

Prejudice and wariness are two different things but often mis interpreted and the same thing. I am wary of breeds in an off leash roaming situation that can be predisposed with fighting drive coupled with nerve weakness, GSD's, Bull breeds, Rottweilers, Akitas, Dobermann, Cattle dogs to name a few, but I am not breed prejudice or dislike them, quite the opposite infact. It's breeds that can stand up to pressure if they are short on nerve and will fight instead of flight are the breeds I am most wary of in a stranger situation which I don't think wariness should be taken for prejudice, to me they are different meanings.

^ This

[MalteseLuna]

Prejudice and wariness are two different things but often mis interpreted and the same thing. I am wary of breeds in an off leash roaming situation that can be predisposed with fighting drive coupled with nerve weakness, GSD's, Bull breeds, Rottweilers, Akitas, Dobermann, Cattle dogs to name a few, but I am not breed prejudice or dislike them, quite the opposite infact. It's breeds that can stand up to pressure if they are short on nerve and will fight instead of flight are the breeds I am most wary of in a stranger situation which I don't think wariness should be taken for prejudice, to me they are different meanings.

^ This

Same

[dee lee]

Yeah, me too.

[tarope]

Quote, poodlemum

I've always found GSDs to be nasty cowardly dogs who will slink away from another dog when alone but are happy to attack when in a pack. I think that GSDs' have been very badly bred in recent years to conform to the ridiculous standard - the ones I have seen at shows look positively deformed with that horrible sloping back

Quote, Inevitablue

It's ok, some people fail to be pragmatic, or it could be the chip on the shoulder getting him/ her down.

I could be cheeky and say this could be an example of a personality type that wants to own 'impressive' dogs Get your head out of the clouds.

As DOL is about promoting pure breed dogs, I don't think your Ill Informed comment about a breed you have never owned is doing that poodlemum.

As for your above comment Inevitablue, maybe I should be doing the reporting. ;)

I'm not afraid of any breed and will always defend my chosen breeds from people who make negative stupid statements about breeds they have never owned, like it or not.

[BJean]

Prejudice and wariness are two different things but often mis interpreted and the same thing. I am wary of breeds in an off leash roaming situation that can be predisposed with fighting drive coupled with nerve weakness, GSD's, Bull breeds, Rottweilers, Akitas, Dobermann, Cattle dogs to name a few, but I am not breed prejudice or dislike them, quite the opposite infact. It's breeds that can stand up to pressure if they are short on nerve and will fight instead of flight are the breeds I am most wary of in a stranger situation which I don't think wariness should be taken for prejudice, to me they are different meanings.

How do you determine this?

[B-Q]

I think its sad to see so many nervy GSD's around, they are a spectacular breed and its sad there are so many poor examples out there.

A good GSD should be confident, assertive but very well rounded. They are the perfect example of BYB's messing up a breed and people owning them that don't understand them, like labs, cattle dogs, BC's, Staffy's and most of the other breeds mentioned in this thread.

[poodlemum]

Quote, poodlemum

I've always found GSDs to be nasty cowardly dogs who will slink away from another dog when alone but are happy to attack when in a pack. I think that GSDs' have been very badly bred in recent years to conform to the ridiculous standard - the ones I have seen at shows look positively deformed with that horrible sloping back

Quote, Inevitablue

It's ok, some people fail to be pragmatic, or it could be the chip on the shoulder getting him/ her down.

I could be cheeky and say this could be an example of a personality type that wants to own 'impressive' dogs Get your head out of the clouds.

As DOL is about promoting pure breed dogs, I don't think your Ill Informed comment about a breed you have never owned is doing that poodlemum.

Gee, you REALLY love that "mad" icon, don't you . The thread title is breed PREJUDICE. One doesn't need to have owned a particular breed to observe behavior and, if you had bothered to read all my posts, instead of just bits, you would see that I say that the GSDs I have seen at dog parks were most likely from BYBs. Sure, DOL is about promoting pure breed dogs but one doesn't have to like the appearance of all of them - I happen to think that GSDs have become ludicrously miss-shapen with the exaggerated sloping back.

As for your above comment Inevitablue, maybe I should be doing the reporting. ;)

I'm not afraid of any breed and will always defend my chosen breeds from people who make negative stupid statements about breeds they have never owned, like it or not.

And I am not afraid to state my feelings about a breed. I was a Dog Obedience Instructor for many years, which gave me the opportunity to observe various breeds and how they inter-acted with other dogs. What are YOUR qualifications, Tarope?

[PetSitters]

Prejudice and wariness are two different things but often mis interpreted and the same thing. I am wary of breeds in an off leash roaming situation that can be predisposed with fighting drive coupled with nerve weakness, GSD's, Bull breeds, Rottweilers, Akitas, Dobermann, Cattle dogs to name a few, but I am not breed prejudice or dislike them, quite the opposite infact. It's breeds that can stand up to pressure if they are short on nerve and will fight instead of flight are the breeds I am most wary of in a stranger situation which I don't think wariness should be taken for prejudice, to me they are different meanings.

How do you determine this?

Defence is a behaviour in my opinion between fight and flight and some breeds are biased towards fight as a necessity when trained in particular working roles for example, you can train a Standard Poodle or Labrador to bite a sleeve in prey drive, but under pressure in the fight they lack the genetic gameness to remain in defence drive and punch on so to speak and will retreat when the pressure rises, a reason they don't use Labrador's as defence dogs in working roles. Other breeds have a genetic bias for the elevation of aggression under pressure, like the GSD, Rottwieler etc along with a high pain threshold keeps some breeds in the fight longer than others.

It's my experience if you get a bit of nerve weakness in these breeds coupled with a bias towards aggression elevation under pressure results in the aggressive lunger or a dog that will fight to reduce stress and on the loose can be dangerous dogs to encounter. Good examples of the breeds I mentioned with sound nerve structure are fine, but not all a fine examples unfortunately which often results in reactive aggression when a nerve imbalance exits in the breeding.

[dandybrush]

If someone on this thread, the owner of Angel or any of the other staffies requested a play date, I wouldn't hesitate, because I am confident that in the right hands, these dogs can be beautiful (I have after all seen lovely staffies for myself).

I would, because one of my dogs doesn't really like the boisterous play style I often see in staffy type dogs, he is prone to 'speaking' too quietly to them, and he is prone to then blowing up in their faces when they don't pay attention to what he's saying, and they are prone to firing up over that. In my mind it's not a prejudice, it's me managing my dog for his safety according to my experiences and risk assessments. Some staffies don't play too rough, some don't fail to notice his back off signals, and some are quite tolerant of outspoken behaviour. But many are not, and it behooves me to err on the side of caution and avoid trouble where it might exist. That's why we can have fun at dog parks.

This morning Erik was playing with one of his oldest canine friends, who is a little, entire, BYB female staffy. She was shouldering him and he was wrestling with her and it was very physical and Erik was being pretty obnoxious. I let them play for a good 15 minutes, and that's because they have known each other all their lives. Erik doesn't mind her jostling or biting him and she is tolerant of him barking in her face. It doesn't really matter that she's BYB or that she's a staffy or that her owner is clueless about dog behaviour. It matters that she and E know each other and they trust each other, therefore I am cool with them playing together as long as they like. I am not cool with E playing for extended periods with a dog he dosen't know that well that is likely to push him too far and then explode at him when he snaps. I am cool with him getting to know said dog over a number of short encounters where we move on well before problems may arise. I don't think that's prejudiced. I think that's cautious management, and the reason why I can count the fights Erik has got into on one hand with fingers to spare.

corvus you sound very sensible, i too err on the side of caution, not allowing my boy to play with dogs i dont see with manners or are too highly excited (almost aggressive) i can also count the number of time he has been in a fight, with all my fingers to spare i just want to say yay to another sensible dog owner, sometimes i feel like im the only one :rolleyes:

there are breeds that i dont like and would never own, that said when im going to the dog park before i walk in i watch the body language and choose whether its worth it or not, the breeds i am most wary of and have seen in fights in the park are the staffies, kelpies and border collies, they are just to high strung and not taught to settle, though imo thats the owners fault not the breeds fault. any dog i come across loose on a walk i try to avoid if i can, ill even turn around and walk a diff way if they dont see me first

Edited June 14, 2011 by dandybrush

[PetSitters]

Quote, poodlemum

I've always found GSDs to be nasty cowardly dogs who will slink away from another dog when alone but are happy to attack when in a pack. I think that GSDs' have been very badly bred in recent years to conform to the ridiculous standard - the ones I have seen at shows look positively deformed with that horrible sloping back

Quote, Inevitablue

It's ok, some people fail to be pragmatic, or it could be the chip on the shoulder getting him/ her down.

I could be cheeky and say this could be an example of a personality type that wants to own 'impressive' dogs Get your head out of the clouds.

As DOL is about promoting pure breed dogs, I don't think your Ill Informed comment about a breed you have never owned is doing that poodlemum.

As for your above comment Inevitablue, maybe I should be doing the reporting. ;)

I'm not afraid of any breed and will always defend my chosen breeds from people who make negative stupid statements about breeds they have never owned, like it or not.

I own a GSD similar to the one's Poodlemum describes Tarope and he's not a BYB either rather from a line of successful show dogs and although being a GSD person myself it's sad to say that the character of my dog to be honest is bloody aweful to say the least I am not the only one who owns or have seen GSD's like mine and the reason these dogs are like that in my opinion is caused by the breeding of dogs that shouldn't have been bred for show ribbon potential as the breeding priority over temperament and stability. I have also a GSD bred for temperament and stability from working lines and there is no comparison between a confident hard nerved GSD and a fear biter owning one of each let me tell you ;)

[Darkrai]

Have to agree with poodlemum to a degree about GSD's I grew up with Family members that owned them some where good others would cringe and walk around you snarling with tail between their legs...

I have a slight issue with my little dog running with unfamilar larger dogs of any breed, especially if i dont know if they are used to small dogs... Damn little dog has no fear and when snapped at will still go back in and try and play :rolleyes: - Stupid Lowchen will get herself killed one day ...

[Fatsofatsoman]

I must say the only GSD behaviour I notice in Dog Parks when it escalates is for them to actually place themselves in between the fighting dogs and to take one aside. I've only ever seen them diffuse fights. That being said that's only my experience with them.

[poodlemum]

I must say the only GSD behaviour I notice in Dog Parks when it escalates is for them to actually place themselves in between the fighting dogs and to take one aside. I've only ever seen them diffuse fights. That being said that's only my experience with them.

That's interesting - I used to have a Geman Shorthaired Pointer who was the park "peacemaker". The GSDs I used to see, unfortunately, were owned by "macho" types who weren't bothered about their dogs attacking other (usually smaller) dogs and in some cases encouraged it

A few years ago I had to go to a trial secretary's house to hand in a trial entry (last-minute) She had GSDs & I was a bit nervous of them, at first, but they were gentle & obviously well-socialised.

Edited June 14, 2011 by poodlemum

[corvus]

Good examples of the breeds I mentioned with sound nerve structure are fine, but not all a fine examples unfortunately which often results in reactive aggression when a nerve imbalance exits in the breeding.

Gotta watch those dogs with brittle dendrites. ;) There's no fixing them. :p I found a paper in my library that you and Joe would like. It looks at heritability scores in GSDs and Labs for temperament traits important in working roles. It's worth noting, I think, that heritability of 'nerve' and all traits under that umbrella appears to vary between breeds, and it is not 100%. I think it's an over-generalisation to label behaviour in a dog whose history is unknown as genetic. I think we should be very careful about making bold statements to that effect.

Thanks, dandybrush. ;) I don't where this line between accepting breed tendencies and outright breed prejudice apparently lies. We love talking about breed tendencies... until it's a negative one. It's not harmful to anyone IMO to be cautious.

[warval dobe]

The previous comments are all very interesting, some rational and some obviously idiotic, so I am very interested in your response...

We live in a tourist rural area and every day I take our "baby" dobe for a walk down the main bitumen road.

Without fail we are greeted by a small very cute looking small fluffy maltess cross terrier (I have met this dog with her owners and she is lovely ). She comes trotting out and proceeds to follow / bark / nip at / and generally harass our boy.

Our bubba never responds but is obviously put off by the attention (he is not aggressive to dogs or people whatsoever / big sook that he is!). What if he did turn around one day and attack the little dog. Who is to blame? Would an incident like this make you prejudice against my chosen breed?

[warval dobe]

Oh, did I mention that she is small??? (the small fluffy white dog that is!)

[mita]

I was guilty of outright breed prejudice.

I'd not liked small dogs, believing they didn't have the intelligence & presence of the bigger dogs. And were flighty.

Then I came across a bunch of small dogs at the Brisbane Royal Show, which looked at me, coolly, confidently & calmly. Turned out they were tibetan spaniels. Now I'm hooked on that small breed.

I'd also believed that the small, white fluffy dogs were especially twitchy & all over the place.

Then I came across a p/b maltese whose elderly owner needed to rehome him. I put her on to the poodle rescue person (who'll take in other small fluffy breeds). Up until then, that person had told me her favourite breed she'd fostered were tibetan spaniels. But, after she'd had this maltese boy, she said he was the nicest dog she'd ever had. In fact, he was adopted by a semi-retired lady who worked in a retirement facility. The maltese boy was so sensible, loving and with great 'manners' that he was easily given permission to go to work with her.

Lesson I've learned.....small breeds can be as fine as any other dog. Also, that small white fluffies, like the maltese boy, can be brilliant.

[Inevitablue]

The previous comments are all very interesting, some rational and some obviously idiotic, so I am very interested in your response...

We live in a tourist rural area and every day I take our "baby" dobe for a walk down the main bitumen road.

Without fail we are greeted by a small very cute looking small fluffy maltess cross terrier (I have met this dog with her owners and she is lovely ). She comes trotting out and proceeds to follow / bark / nip at / and generally harass our boy.

Our bubba never responds but is obviously put off by the attention (he is not aggressive to dogs or people whatsoever / big sook that he is!). What if he did turn around one day and attack the little dog. Who is to blame? Would an incident like this make you prejudice against my chosen breed?

I wouldn't, it's the owners fault for not controlling their little dog. Also, from what you have written if your dog is not reactive in that situation, if she was to snap at the little dog, I doubt it would be a life ending snap. My posts might make me seem like I don't like big, drivey dogs, it's the opposite in fact. My pet hate is people who make excuses for their dogs, and people with tunnel vision.

I know a girl through another hobby and she would ring and complain that her 2 Labs kept getting attacked by other dogs. Stupid girl honestly thought she wasn't in the wrong by letting her uncontrollable and boisterous Labradors off lead in public and allowing them to bowl over random others and their on lead dogs. Her justification was that they were friendly Labs. Another case of someone failing to look at the bigger picture. A 35 kg male Labrador launching itself at people in full flight could break bones and seriously upset other dogs.

Can you believe she even contacted council to put in complaints about the on lead dogs biting hers!

I agree with a post earlier, it's not so much predjudice but wariness. There are breeds originally bred for the purpose of making people wary!

[warval dobe]

To quote Inevitablue

Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:52 PM

"There are breeds originally bred for the purpose of making people wary!"

This is probably the truiest comment on this thread and I would agree 100%.

[tarope]

Quote, poodlemum

I've always found GSDs to be nasty cowardly dogs who will slink away from another dog when alone but are happy to attack when in a pack. I think that GSDs' have been very badly bred in recent years to conform to the ridiculous standard - the ones I have seen at shows look positively deformed with that horrible sloping back

Quote, Inevitablue

It's ok, some people fail to be pragmatic, or it could be the chip on the shoulder getting him/ her down.

I could be cheeky and say this could be an example of a personality type that wants to own 'impressive' dogs Get your head out of the clouds.

As DOL is about promoting pure breed dogs, I don't think your Ill Informed comment about a breed you have never owned is doing that poodlemum.

Gee, you REALLY love that "mad" icon, don't you . The thread title is breed PREJUDICE. One doesn't need to have owned a particular breed to observe behavior and, if you had bothered to read all my posts, instead of just bits, you would see that I say that the GSDs I have seen at dog parks were most likely from BYBs. Sure, DOL is about promoting pure breed dogs but one doesn't have to like the appearance of all of them - I happen to think that GSDs have become ludicrously miss-shapen with the exaggerated sloping back.

As for your above comment Inevitablue, maybe I should be doing the reporting. ;)

I'm not afraid of any breed and will always defend my chosen breeds from people who make negative stupid statements about breeds they have never owned, like it or not.

And I am not afraid to state my feelings about a breed. I was a Dog Obedience Instructor for many years, which gave me the opportunity to observe various breeds and how they inter-acted with other dogs. What are YOUR qualifications, Tarope?

As an All Breeds Instructor you would see cross bred and backyard so called GSD's with very bad Temperaments purchased by people who haven't got a clue how to handle them. I have seen an All Breeds Instructor who was very scared of my GSD and she was only a pup(12 mths) at that time. I'm not having a go at you,but anyone can be an All Breed Instructor with no experience at all. To be an Instructor with the GSDL you must have the experience and pass all the exams too.

You asked what are my Qualifications, well I was a member of the GSDL for a few years and both my GSD's who are papered did Obedience training for several years. At GSD training you are shown how to handle and raise you GSD correctly and if you have a problem you only have to ask.

I was a member of two branches of the GSDL and have seen many GSD's both dog and bitch and I would not call any of them cowardly, fear biting was a big problem years ago so I'm told this is not the case now thanks to the GSDL.

With GSD's dogs don't like other dogs and bitches don't like other bitches and some don't like either and you are told this on the very first night of training so you keep your dog or bitch on a short lead at all times. They are also stubborn and have a mind of their own at times, shed 365 days per year. There are two types of GSD's, the calm and the hyperactive, I have one of each but not by choice and a desexed dog and bitch are the best combo with this breed. So as you can see I do have a little experience this wonderful breed. Am a member of the Rottie Club and have done Obedience with them too, aren't you sorry you asked.

There are many owners of GSD's and Rotties who do the right thing and raise them correctly, that also means making them part of the family but unfortunately it's the bad owners who create breed prejudice.