Breeder Politics

[Angeluca]

Hello,

This is my first post and it may be a bit long but i would like to get full story out and I have so many controversial questions when it comes to breeders and breeding.

Last year i contacted a breeder had asked for a male who I intend on going through with obedience trials with the possibility of one day breeding with the promise of full registration and health checks first.

They were helpful and gave me my gorgeous boy on main register.

He is almost 10 mths now and I have joined local kennel club and are going to weekly obedience lessons as I said I would.

I have now spent the last 3 months researching and contacting breeders in regards of purchasing a girl with little to no success. Some have been helpful and respectful, but most haven't. I am fully open and admit I have a male on main register and who I got him from. The same question is asked every-time. "do you intent to breed?" I said "well yes providing the dogs are good temp and pass all health checks but i can't say that is what i will do cause it depends on so much"

Thats when I strike out, some have admitted it is because I admit I have a boy, they consider me a backyard breeder and so forth. I even met a breeder who said if I don't show would I be considered a backyard breeder?

but then went on to discredit half the breeders out there with awful looking dogs who only win cause they get along with the judge, or and inexperienced judge passes the pretty dog. But then added "there is no reason to breed is you don't show" but later told in same conversation "you don't need to show foundation bitch"

There was others who dislike my breeder won't sell me a dog, and others who think it doesn't tie in with their lines. If the dog is health checked and registered. Follows the standard what does lines matter?

I find that these breeders are in clicky groups and have heard of Me even before I contact them.

This honestly left me completely confused and disheartened.

I have agreed with breeders to have the girl on limited until health checks are passed, this of course leaves me at their will if they don't follow through with it, So I to am taking a risk.

I want to do this right but I find if I am Honest I will get nowhere. I have found If i had said this is my only dog and I want to show I would have had a bitch months ago on main. To do as I pleased, it was just unethical. I know there is so many questions within this post but I'm have pretty much exhausted with looking for answers and getting nowhere.

P.S All breeders I contacted advertise here.

And I would like to keep what state I'm from and what breed as I honestly believe It will hinder me further.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Angeluca

[Fatsofatsoman]

P.S All breeders I contacted advertise here.

And I would like to keep what state I'm from and what breed as I honestly believe It will hinder me further.

you might want to edit your post then as you've mentioned the breed.

[SparkyTansy]

Hi Angeluca you put the breed in the first line

Not sure what you can do here - have you tried going back to your original breeder and asking for something that would suit your current male?

[Angeluca]

P.S All breeders I contacted advertise here.

And I would like to keep what state I'm from and what breed as I honestly believe It will hinder me further.

you might want to edit your post then as you've mentioned the breed.

thank you

[Are You Serious Jo]

Find a mentor who will teach you what you need to know about dogs and do your waiting period. Breeders are just being cautious, you could be stringing them any old line to get a bitch, so show them you aren't by getting involved with a bit of showing as well as obedience. It can't hurt, it's fun and you'll prove your worth.

[Angeluca]

Hi Angeluca you put the breed in the first line

Not sure what you can do here - have you tried going back to your original breeder and asking for something that would suit your current male?

Thanks lol silly mistake, I did end up contacting my breeder who was helpful, always has been to their credit. Love them! some of the breeders who were less then helpful contained some of his lines, some of the original prefix owners no longer breed. I did find someone who was going to or may still sell me a pup. But i made the mistake of being respectful to the lady who's time I took up and told her i was going a different direction cause she was going to sell me a pup providing I desex my male. I did consider it cause of her reputation and years of experience. Anyway she asked who i was looks at and I mentioned who. The next conversation with the new breeder she was vague with litter details only there wasn't enough and short. I mention she had mentioned another breeding she had coming up she asked me to contact her then. I will wait to see if the same happens again I Just get the feeling i'm being palmed off as even when said ' thats no prob hows mum anyway? she was short

[Mags]

Lines matter - you can not just put two dogs together and assume all will be well. Some lines just don't work together - there could be health problems or they can throw offspring that are not as good as the parents. If you are serious about breeding dogs you need to put the effort in and learn about your chosen breed. You have a boy you purchased to obedience trial - then go out and do do it. Get him titled, whilst you are doing that you will be meeting people and learning about your breed and hopefully then people will take you a little more seriously. Even if you aren't interested in showing yourself visit shows talk to people and watch and learn as much about your breed as you can.

I understand people not wanting to sell entires to people who know little about the breed, the good breeders have the reputation of their lines to consider and the welfare of the breed. There is a lot more to breeding then just putting together 2 dogs that have passed health checks and who look unrelated on a 3 or 4 gen pedigree.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Mags

[Dogsfevr]

We get phone calls every day from People who have brought a male & want a female on main because they might breed .

Of these calls 99% don't want to breed for the right reason .

Most when phoning have no idea the breeder/s they are phoning have lines that are totally not compatible & won't produce pups for the betterment.

So my first question would be in relation to the breed standard what are your boys good points ??

What are his faults?

What are the main area's of improvement you need to be careful off when using him at stud ??

As a breeder what are you plans ???

All these questions are what breeders want to know.

"well yes providing the dogs are good temp and pass all health checks but i can't say that is what i will do cause it depends on so much"

This is where you need to now faults as well whether it be mouth,coat texture,movement,pigmentation & the list goes on .good temp & health check still doesn't mean breedable.

Have you had the breeder of your boy assess him as to how he is progressing so you can understand more about him or maybe consider showing him to get your feet into the world many of us breeders are

If the dog is health checked and registered. Follows the standard what does lines matter?

This is of upmost importance & to be honest if you don't understand why then your not ready to consider breeding .Lines play a major part in breeding

Any one can put A to B & produce pups but there prefixs are attached to those pups so breeders are very grateful who they sell main pups to.

Sadly many of us are battling the Backyard breeders & i am not saying you are but look at it from the other side when enquiring

[lappiemum]

Angeluca - the advice you have been given by Reverend Jo is good. You need to establish yourself in the breed, and show that you have the interests of the breed at heart. Breeding should only be done IMO to improve the breed overall - and to do that, you need knowledge of your breed and the lines behind your dogs. Its not just about health testing, although that very very important - but what you want to contribute to the future of your chosen breed. The reason you were asked about showing is that is a forum whereby your dog/btich can be assessed by a Judge - and by others in your breed - and its attributes recognised in terms of how it meedt the breed standard (although this is not a perfect process, but that is the theory!LOL)

Breeding is expensive, risky, emotionally draining and not for the faint hearted ;) . There are a mutltude of threads on breeding here on DOL, but the best thing is to find a breeder to mentor you, start showing, or at least attend shows where your breed is being presented, and learn everything you possibly can about your breed. Your dog may or may not be a fine example fo the breed, it may or may not be able to contribute to the breed's future - but there is a lot to learn before even thinking of going down that track. Just getting yourself registered with CCCQ is a minor step - you need to take on an apprenticeship, of sorts, and that will take time, perserverence and committment if you want to do it right.

[lappiemum]

Lines are very important, as some lines will mix well and produce lovely pups to type, but other lines may not mix as well or there are hidden genetic flaws, and you could be unknowingly doubling up on these. Say your dog has hidden in the lines a genetic predisposition that could produced a kinked tail, your dog is fine, but hidden away there is this possibility in a litter he sires. However, he is an outstanding dog in every other respect, a really fabulous example and you really want to use him - he could contribute much to the future of your breed. If you put him to a girl where there is no evidence in the lines of anything being produced with a kink, your chances of that problem coming out in the litter are greatly reduced. However, if you put him to a bitch where there was kinking in the lines, your chance of this problem is greatly increased. Furthermore, you would need to remember that anything from the litter produced could have the potential to pass this trait on themselves, so you would need to take that into account if you are breeding anything else down the track.

That is a very very simple example of why you need to understand lines, and generations behind your lines.

Edited June 7, 2011 by lappiemum

[Angeluca]

My Boys breeder has provided me with 5 generations, he has the same grand parents as many grand chs in the show ring today, plus countless Ud, Udx ect titles in his lines and I did extensive research in to the lines these people have so they match mine on both sides and the breeders they've bred with previously it is mostly people with these lines who I'm getting flack from.

And I understand the health probs, breed requirements, Standard and the original history and use of the breed. I am familiar with temperaments and traits as this isn't the first I have owned plus the on going research.

The breed I'm familiar with just not the politics within the breeder circles and show ring. I'm also confused with show breeders say you can't breed unless you show. Where as others say so long as the dogs is Good standard with all health checks and registration.

[poodlefan]

Want my honest advice?

Show your male. Not only will you get to see him in comparison to other males and potentially title him, you'll soon become a known quantity to other breeder/exhibitors. Whilst showing might not interest you, it will be a means to an end. Networking really matters. If there's a national for your breed, go to that too.. it demonstrates commitment to the breed IMO.

Plus you'll get to see what else is out there and maybe you'll find the mentor you need to help you along in your early days of becoming a breeder.

[lappiemum]

My Boys breeder has provided me with 5 generations, he has the same grand parents as many grand chs in the show ring today, plus countless Ud, Udx ect titles in his lines and I did extensive research in to the lines these people have so they match mine on both sides and the breeders they've bred with previously it is mostly people with these lines who I'm getting flack from.

And I understand the health probs, breed requirements, Standard and the original history and use of the breed. I am familiar with temperaments and traits as this isn't the first I have owned plus the on going research.

The breed I'm familiar with just not the politics within the breeder circles and show ring. I'm also confused with show breeders say you can't breed unless you show. Where as others say so long as the dogs is Good standard with all health checks and registration.

Angeluca - you need to understand that these breeders don't know you at all, you are a phone call out of the blue, they will not have met you or heard about you, so its entirely expected that they are cautious. There are many people around who breed because they want to make money (which is completely untrue if you do it correctly) or they want a puppy for themselves, or they want the kids to experience the miracle of life, etc etc. Read though the posts above and take on board the comments - esp why people bother running around a grassy paddock in all weather conditions in front of their peers and a judge ;)

[mr.mister]

There are breeders who have been breeding for over 20 years who say they still learn something new every day. Don't claim to know it all - because no one does. As Rev Jo and Lappiemum have said, get in contact with a breeder and find a mentor. Give showing a shot - it can be lots of fun and you will also get a good idea of your boy's quality. I have two lovely mentors in my breed and I have had a lot of fun spending time with them and their dogs. I have learned a lot from them and am also happy to now have two good friends to boot. They know what I'm all about now, and when the time finally comes for me to find a good dog, they will be there to help and guide me, which I am very grateful for.

[poodlefan]

I'm sniffing around getting my second Whippet pup. Because I showed my first, I've got a heap of contacts and Whippety FB friends.. will make it a lot easier (but not necessarily quicker) to find the next one!

[Angeluca]

Thanks everyone,

I do honestly appreciate your comments. And the fact there was no accusations.

There were a few breeders I had contacted whom were polite and helpful respectfully either directed me into another direction from their breed because of line changes ect or Just nothing they had was more then pet quality. And I do understand the Byb problem which is why I was willing to trust the person who offered on a limited register until health checks and other commitments I made were followed through including not using my male if When of age he wasn't up to standard or health checks for one reason or another i know just cause i have him doesn't mean i can breed from him we have a long road before it can be considered, I mention that to breeders but with reason they are skeptical. Which is where most my problems lay. I don't believe I'm ready for the show ring. I have attended as a spectator to a few obedience trials and it honestly feels like home. I love the people, the environment and atmosphere.

I am attending a show as a spectator in a few days and another in just over a week. I'm trying to be optimistic, but the last couple of months have really tainted that with witnessing, backstabbing. The experienced show lady who I went and visited ran other people down and their dogs and told me she'd deny it as she said who would they believe her or me? not that I would go and do that, but just the fact that that was being said.

I told myself last years it was in the second half of this year I would have the time for another puppy to come. I started contacting people months ago mostly in my state to make contact and visits possible. I could honestly not have a pup until next year and be fine and more then willing to jump though hoops to prove myself.

[indigirl]

The wait for a show quality bitch may be a lot longer than you think - even if youhave a breeder willing to sell you one. Breeders will almsot always keep the best bitch in the litter themselves, hence why it is not as easy to obtain a main reg bitch as it is a main reg male. Also breeders will need to know who you are usually before they will sell a show quality bitch to you.

My first show quality bitch was from a breeder my family had a long assocation with as we had a pet dog from her for many many years and had always kept in touch. I showed that bitch for 3 yrs and got myself known. When I decided I wanted to buy a bitch of a different breed it was surprisingly easy to source one, but had I not been out in the ring showing my first girl regularly this would not have been the case. Breeders want to know that you are comitted to the breed and to the purebred dog world before allowing you to have a main reg bitch.

If you are serious about breeding then get your male into the ring, take him to obedience and get known by ppl in both areas. Saying dog shows are bitchy is a given lol. However if you are serious about your intentions why does a little bitching on the sidelines bother you so much? you dont have to get involved in that. I stay out of the ring politics and I get along with pretty much everybody. I find dog shows relaxing and entertaining and have made some great friends through it.

[wuffles]

I think you'll also find that there are plenty of politics in obedience as well, that become more noticeable once you're competing In any dog-related pursuit I think you have to have tough skin. Showing is not my thing either, but I am not interested in breeding.

If I were you I'd try making my timelines more flexible. Is there a reason you need to breed right away? Get your boy out and about, get some obedience titles on him, meet people, volunteer at your local obedience club, get involved with your local breed club if there is one, network, maybe also try something like agility or tracking. If you really want another dog now, think about desexing your boy and finding the right male for your female in a few years' time. Or at least convey to breeders that you are not getting a girl simply to breed with your boy, but you are genuinely interested in learning more about the breed and finding a mentor.

[Danois]

I may have missed it but do you have your own prefix?

[Are You Serious Jo]

You can enjoy showing and keep out of the bitching, and as said above, obedience is the same, as well as any other sport where there is some element of competition. Showing is fun and I really think you need to get your dog out there for people to take you seriously.