oakway Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Just to add a little more fuel to the fire I was told of a mare that had 3 foals last season. Modern technology is here to say, no matter what any of us think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 For breeding of course. There is no point recreating the performance and I don't beleive clones should be used in competition (I doubt anyone would bother it's a lot of work and a lot of money to get to that level) but performance horse breeding is a big deal and a mare of that talent could have produced some awesome foals. I know what you're saying but I still dont agree with it. What's wrong with using the mares and stallions already available. Not enough good ones, then breed them rather than clone them. I just dont get it. there was only one Matine and one Andreas. A clone or it's offspring isnt going to perform the same without the rapport and teamwork those two individuals had regardless of dna. For the same reason any breeding goes ahead, to produce (hopefully) even better animals. The thing with performance horses is when you have proven performance it's very valuable it takes lots of money and lots of time to train and campaign them to a high level so you want to start with the best genetics possible. The hard part with mares is that if you are going to breed with them it should be done fairly early, my mare was bred at 8-9 and the vet referred to her as an 'older mare' in terms of first time foaling. Blue Hors Matine was 13 and if she had not retired through injury would probably have competed even longer, so her breeding potential was very limited anyway. The case with stallions is even more compelling many performance horses are gelded as stallions are a PITA to manage and are sometimes harder to focus on the task at hand so if you have a competition horse who is gelded who turns out to be something special you have lost those genes to the gene pool. Especially in sports like eventing and show jumping there aren't a lot of performance proven stallions to choose from, particularly in Australia, one of our current high performing dressage stallions is breeding the buggery out of everything in this country soon there will be very few Youngstock that don't have him in their lines, another up and coming star had to be gelded recently for whatever reason, they did collect him a lot beforehand but that was because they knew he was a likely contender for London and beyond, usually with young horses you don't know and most people aren't going to go through the hassle of maintaining and campaigning a stallion unless they have a vey good reason to do so, so we have lots of awesome performance horses out there who are a genetic dead end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Just to add a little more fuel to the fire I was told of a mare that had 3 foals last season. Modern technology is here to say, no matter what any of us think. That would be embryo transfer, a very exciting technology which allows performance mares to be bred from while still able to compete. From what I know of it it's quite difficult, risky and expensive and not undertaken lightly. Again not allowed in TBs either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyandjazz Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I also think embryo transfer is exciting as well, know a couple of mares it has been done with and owners have had fantastic results, especially in mares that could not hold a pregnancy and also in older mares who have been campaigned and to old to become maiden mares. Hopefully the cost will become less expensive as more are using it. I do know that only 1 foal can be registered each year no matter how many embryos are breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Cloning scares me, but the embryo transfer sounds interesting, especially if you have a top mare with a hostile uterus. I would love to breed a foal from my current gelding Bailey but I don't think I'd clone him, that horse may be genetically the same, but that horse wouldn't be "Bailey" he has a unique personality and mannerisms that I don't think a clone could ever have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 What I found most interesting in this story, aside from the actual debate around cloning (noting that, given the high failure rate, risks involved and considerable expense, I don't think the puppy farmers will be interested) was the reaction from the registry body for these horses. The breeder in the report said that while the cloned horse was within all the current rules, an emergency meeting happened while the horse was literally in transport (mid air so to speak!) and that as a result it isn't registered - although yes, its progeny will. So the question is, has the ANKC looked into the likelihood of this? Say you have a multi-BIS champ, a wonderful example of the breed,. How would the ANKC react if the owner was to clone this animal, and want to show it and its progeny? Is this ethical? Is it fair? Is it in the best interests of the breed, considering that if that animal was truely a remarkable one, would you not want to see the line continued? A complex issue that I suspect we shall be faced with the in pedigree dog world sooner than we think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskedaway Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 It's very very interesting and certainly a lot of food for thought. In dogs, I personally don't think the clone should be showed, but progeny yes. In a way, it's a bit like freezing semen and using it 10 years down the track, only the semen isn't gone forever if the dam doesn't take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 It's very very interesting and certainly a lot of food for thought. In dogs, I personally don't think the clone should be showed, but progeny yes. In a way, it's a bit like freezing semen and using it 10 years down the track, only the semen isn't gone forever if the dam doesn't take. This is my POV too, I don't see the point of competing a proven animal nor do I think it should be allowed, but breeding is a different story. There can be many different reasons why a stud cannot be used, maybe geographical issues, maybe he won't collect and so the potential for breeding is limited to those females which can be brought to him, severely limiting the introduction of those lines in other areas or countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I don't have a problem with nature cloning - nature seems to be the best at doing ...well nature. I don't think humans should interfere and clone things. Embryo transfer is a little different as the progeny is the result of two different lots of genes, yes there are more babies produced than would naturally occure, but it does have it's place. I have cattle that have ET back in their pedigree. Cloning has never sat well with me, sheep, horses, dogs anything. I cannot see how cloning will diversify genetic pools or take any animals forward. To me the whole point is to use very very good animals and breed forward to breed more very very good animals, not just rinse and repeat over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I don't have a problem with nature cloning - nature seems to be the best at doing ...well nature. I don't think humans should interfere and clone things. Embryo transfer is a little different as the progeny is the result of two different lots of genes, yes there are more babies produced than would naturally occure, but it does have it's place. I have cattle that have ET back in their pedigree. Cloning has never sat well with me, sheep, horses, dogs anything. I cannot see how cloning will diversify genetic pools or take any animals forward. To me the whole point is to use very very good animals and breed forward to breed more very very good animals, not just rinse and repeat over and over. I don't see it as rinse and repeat though, from what I can tell most of these animals are going to be used for breeding not just for the sake of having a clone. As I understand it the multiple clones are the result of the original cloning rather than people wanting several copies of the same horse, several clones were initiated because of the high rate of failure at this early stage. I think that is the only reason there have been multiple clones of the same horse, not to make endless copies of the same horse that would be pointless. If the registries follow the QH example then only progeny would be able to be registered and competed which should allay fears about people just reproducing the same horse, each clone's progeny will be different and unique and they will carry the lines forward, the clone is just the bridge between the original and the progeny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Just to add a little more fuel to the fire I was told of a mare that had 3 foals last season. Modern technology is here to say, no matter what any of us think. That would be embryo transfer, a very exciting technology which allows performance mares to be bred from while still able to compete. From what I know of it it's quite difficult, risky and expensive and not undertaken lightly. Again not allowed in TBs either. No quite easy, I watched a programme on it the other day. American of course. The mare was irrigated so may many days ofter mating and they just flushed the embryo out, caught it in a sieve and checked the viability of it and then planted it in the surrogate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Just to add a little more fuel to the fire I was told of a mare that had 3 foals last season. Modern technology is here to say, no matter what any of us think. That would be embryo transfer, a very exciting technology which allows performance mares to be bred from while still able to compete. From what I know of it it's quite difficult, risky and expensive and not undertaken lightly. Again not allowed in TBs either. No quite easy, I watched a programme on it the other day. American of course. The mare was irrigated so may many days ofter mating and they just flushed the embryo out, caught it in a sieve and checked the viability of it and then planted it in the surrogate. Lol my vet does it she doesn't think it's easy at all Much easier in principle than in practice I think ;) Slightly OT but I remember reading some research a while back which suggests that genes can be transferred from mother to foetus in the womb as well so that will make people chose their recipient mares carefully lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Just to add a little more fuel to the fire I was told of a mare that had 3 foals last season. Modern technology is here to say, no matter what any of us think. That would be embryo transfer, a very exciting technology which allows performance mares to be bred from while still able to compete. From what I know of it it's quite difficult, risky and expensive and not undertaken lightly. Again not allowed in TBs either. No quite easy, I watched a programme on it the other day. American of course. The mare was irrigated so may many days ofter mating and they just flushed the embryo out, caught it in a sieve and checked the viability of it and then planted it in the surrogate. Lol my vet does it she doesn't think it's easy at all Much easier in principle than in practice I think ;) Slightly OT but I remember reading some research a while back which suggests that genes can be transferred from mother to foetus in the womb as well so that will make people chose their recipient mares carefully lol I tried to keep it simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I tried to keep it simple. Lol when she explained it to me I was just reeling with information overload, she's great like that though she explains everything really well so you never feel left in the dark I reckon she would be fantastic to work for just to soak up all that info would be great :D I imagine it would be difficult if not impossible to do ET with dogs? If so the case for cloning could be extremely strong in the cases of bitches that have had to be spayed due to pyo etc assuming there are no genetic factors in terms of predisposition to pyo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The clones/progeny of the clones are not allowed to be registered in America last I heard. But Aust QHA have decided that the progeny can bee registered in their infinite wisdom. Of course the biggest thing most QH people have is that he is a HERDA carrier - and I am fairly sure under the current regulations of the society he actually would not be eligible for Aust QHA registration as an import due to that. If anyone can correct me please do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 What is HERDA??, heard of other potential issues in QH's but not that specific one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 The clones/progeny of the clones are not allowed to be registered in America last I heard. But Aust QHA have decided that the progeny can bee registered in their infinite wisdom. Of course the biggest thing most QH people have is that he is a HERDA carrier - and I am fairly sure under the current regulations of the society he actually would not be eligible for Aust QHA registration as an import due to that. If anyone can correct me please do I thought they had to be tested but were still eligible for registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 What is HERDA??, heard of other potential issues in QH's but not that specific one. Here http://www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HERDA.asp Interesting - I don't think the breeder mentioned that at all ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I am sure the clones cannot be registered but their progeny can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 What is HERDA??, heard of other potential issues in QH's but not that specific one. Here http://www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HERDA.asp Interesting - I don't think the breeder mentioned that at all ;) That is interesting, and of course opens a whole other can of worms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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