Gsd Breeder Recommendations

[Flaves]

i seeing pics of Bear and Pearl when she was a baby

That wasn't Pearl, it was Olive another one of my Seda puppies

Oh was it? Still very cute

Kitkat i was under the impression, and please correct me if i am wrong, that they cannot rehome police trained dogs if they fail anymore.

[kateshep]

Showline dog of this level is better worker than average working line dog.

Joe

What you said doesn't make any sense at all. Can you provide some factual information to back up this statement ?

[jacqui835]

Well if nothing else, at least this thread has provided us with beautiful photos of Bear, he's truly gorgeous and he looks like a very special boy

Thank you to everyone who has provided helpful advice - and a special thank you to everyone who has pm'd me.

At the end of the day, it's a huge decision for us to bring another dog into our family, and we really want to be sure that we have the one best suited to us. These forums are so valuable because I've learned of breeders I doubt I would have been able to consider otherwise and hopefully one day we find the right pooch.

[JoeK]

Showline dog of this level is better worker than average working line dog.

Joe

What you said doesn't make any sense at all. Can you provide some factual information to back up this statement ?

Is old story Kateshep the showline dog is bad worker of course this true in Australia and the USA when generations of dogs produced without work testing and most breeder wouldnt having a clue which traits are needed to produce balanced working Shepherd Dog becuase they not working the dog properly to ever learn, yes.

You taking now proper showline breeding where every dog in the ancestor is work tested bred on all V rated Kkl1 dogs is different animal becuase the downfalling you see in the Autsralia show dogs with no drive, weak nerve, no courage and poor health cant pass these tests with average ratio is 1 in 300 of show dogs bred without work testing ancestor is any good for working promise is what happens.

Ivan Balabanov do this test on the WUSV world title in 2008 with showline dog Apache do Amper he come middle of field with this dog and scoring 88 87 80 with G rating is not bad for world level. Australian working dog Nordenstamm Chiller in 2007 do the WUSV world title score 84 80 75 with U rating finsih 82nd. So you taking average working line dog from Australian breeding that couldnt lick Chillers boots and work it against Kkl rating SchH3 showline dog, you will see how poor the average working line breeding is and what hes lacking by the comparison is my point here.

Of course top showline dog is not better worker than top working line dog but my point is not to underestimating working ability of proper bred showline dog or underestimating temperament and drive balance in these dogs and comparing them with Australian show dogs is not valid on the comparison when the poor traits from substantial testing weeding out what Australia and the USA keep reproducing you see? VA rated German show dog dont get work title at the midnight trial, they have to do the job and pass TWICE! for Kkl1 rating. Not many Kkl1 rated SchH3 show dogs have been imported here and worked and most exports the Germans do are usually borderline dogs they not wanting for keeps. Many imports are SchH1 and not passed on the Kkl or failed the second testing so they sell them to export. So we not seeing this level of show dog in Australia for proper comparison of the working ability, we only seeing crap show dogs working here to say show dogs is no good is unfair rating.

So what I saying here, for good opportunity to get proper SV breeding with correct drives and temperamnent balance in the German Shepherd dog, the add I show on my opinion has the best promise of getting nice pup with correct breed traits. The kennel selling these SV pups advertise they suited for anything, pet to protection which is what a proper bred Shepherd dog is supposed to being. They saying the dogs have beautiful temperament, they have to for passing the working tests, fear biters, weak nerved dogs with unbalaced drives cant pass these tests is true.

Joe

Edited June 5, 2011 by JoeK

[kateshep]

I don't know how you come to the conclusion the average WL in Aus is poorer quality in work than a ScH3 titled show dog. It is possible for a dog to be titled and worked only in prey drive, and when that happens there is little to no test of nerve, courage. Titles or no titles it is up to the buy/breeder to get educated about working temperament and select what traits they want, looking at the qualities in the dogs not just assuming it must be there because they have a few letters behind their name. Not that titles are worthless and don't indicate anything just that they don't guarantee.

If the German showlines in Germany were in such a great state as far as working ability you would see police and Military utilising them in their breeding programs, they would be more frequently represented in high level competitions, Helmut Raiser wouldn't have started a new organisation the RSV2000 and you wouldn't have the scores of complaints from working dog breeders around the world about the sub standard and washed down versions of testing. Just a few things to consider.

I also wanted to say I am no expert but from my experiences so far I found what you said to be really misleading for those just beginning to learn.

[HugL]

How soon do you want your dog? Are you willing to wait when you find the right breeder?

I live in SA and have an old fashioned straight back with Aust Champ Title. Last weekend, I handled my dog's aunty in the show ring taking out Best of Breed both days. This dog is ready for her endurance trial this month, has her CDX title and is being trained for jumping.

The breeder has numerous years of show and obedience lines behind her and I completely recommend her dogs.

If you PM me I can forward you the breeder's details.

[Sayly]

How soon do you want your dog? Are you willing to wait when you find the right breeder?

I live in SA and have an old fashioned straight back with Aust Champ Title. Last weekend, I handled my dog's aunty in the show ring taking out Best of Breed both days. This dog is ready for her endurance trial this month, has her CDX title and is being trained for jumping.

The breeder has numerous years of show and obedience lines behind her and I completely recommend her dogs.

If you PM me I can forward you the breeder's details.

I met the dogs the above poster owns and handles and I cannot fault their personalities. Fantastic dogs.

[JoeK]

I don't know how you come to the conclusion the average WL in Aus is poorer quality in work than a ScH3 titled show dog. It is possible for a dog to be titled and worked only in prey drive, and when that happens there is little to no test of nerve, courage. Titles or no titles it is up to the buy/breeder to get educated about working temperament and select what traits they want, looking at the qualities in the dogs not just assuming it must be there because they have a few letters behind their name. Not that titles are worthless and don't indicate anything just that they don't guarantee.

If the German showlines in Germany were in such a great state as far as working ability you would see police and Military utilising them in their breeding programs, they would be more frequently represented in high level competitions, Helmut Raiser wouldn't have started a new organisation the RSV2000 and you wouldn't have the scores of complaints from working dog breeders around the world about the sub standard and washed down versions of testing. Just a few things to consider.

I also wanted to say I am no expert but from my experiences so far I found what you said to be really misleading for those just beginning to learn.

You have no experience like most people in this country Kateshep on the VA rating Kkl1 SchH3 show dog working ability becuase there is very few high line dogs here. They also dont working them here becuase they costing lot of money and very valuable animal to the breeding of the show dogs. In Germany you buying 5 Malinios for cost of high line show dog and as I say before is not as good as excellent working line dog but they are better than average working line dog is my point. Becuase dog is from working lines, doesnt meaning dog is any good what they do here on the backyard on the breeding bitch, she chase a ball, she bite a sleeve and she stranger aggressive from unstable nerve some thinking makes good dog for breeding and is good enough test of character and drive of ther dog.

If chasing the ball, biting the sleeve and bark at strangers is better test than earning Kkl1 VA German rating, you welcome to your opnion.

Joe

[~Shepherd~]

White Swiss Sheps and Aussie bred White Sheps who breed to FCI standard have the confirmation you are after. PM Eishund or Rosehill or Fanulios for further info. all 3 breeders have either Aussie or International Champs also . Havent met Rosehill dogs but have met Fanulios's and Eishunds stunning Inga and Thor reg ANKC WSS. Noice.

[Kavik]

I noticed on th DOL profiles of White Shepherds that they didn't show them in a 3 point stack like GSDs - interesting.

[PetSitters]

I don't know how you come to the conclusion the average WL in Aus is poorer quality in work than a ScH3 titled show dog. It is possible for a dog to be titled and worked only in prey drive, and when that happens there is little to no test of nerve, courage. Titles or no titles it is up to the buy/breeder to get educated about working temperament and select what traits they want, looking at the qualities in the dogs not just assuming it must be there because they have a few letters behind their name. Not that titles are worthless and don't indicate anything just that they don't guarantee.

If the German showlines in Germany were in such a great state as far as working ability you would see police and Military utilising them in their breeding programs, they would be more frequently represented in high level competitions, Helmut Raiser wouldn't have started a new organisation the RSV2000 and you wouldn't have the scores of complaints from working dog breeders around the world about the sub standard and washed down versions of testing. Just a few things to consider.

I also wanted to say I am no expert but from my experiences so far I found what you said to be really misleading for those just beginning to learn.

Kateshep,

Wouldn't you consider with any knowledge of GSD breedings to explain to someone beginning to learn that dogs who have passed a German breed survey and received a Kkl rating have undergone the highest breed suitabilty testing process than the one's who haven't and is more likey that progeny from stringently tested dogs will possess the authentic character balance required of the GSD?.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I noticed on th DOL profiles of White Shepherds that they didn't show them in a 3 point stack like GSDs - interesting.

They can be shown square stack or 3 point stack. Because of politics theses dogs are only shown once a year at the state show or national show and most owners are not experienced handlers.

Thus a square stack is easier to do.

[Bilbo Baggins]

White Swiss Sheps and Aussie bred White Sheps who breed to FCI standard have the confirmation you are after. PM Eishund or Rosehill or Fanulios for further info. all 3 breeders have either Aussie or International Champs also . Havent met Rosehill dogs but have met Fanulios's and Eishunds stunning Inga and Thor reg ANKC WSS. Noice.

Beat me to it. :laugh: :laugh:

[Kavik]

I noticed on th DOL profiles of White Shepherds that they didn't show them in a 3 point stack like GSDs - interesting.

They can be shown square stack or 3 point stack. Because of politics theses dogs are only shown once a year at the state show or national show and most owners are not experienced handlers.

Thus a square stack is easier to do.

Thank you - that is good to know I didn't realise they could choose.

[rajacadoo]

So can a GSD be stacked in the All Breeds ring 4 square, or just the White Swiss Shepherd ???

Also, without causing any conflict, I have always wondered why the GSD is stacked like that. Could someone please enlighten me as to why ...

[kateshep]

You have no experience like most people in this country Kateshep on the VA rating Kkl1 SchH3 show dog working ability becuase there is very few high line dogs here. They also dont working them here becuase they costing lot of money and very valuable animal to the breeding of the show dogs. In Germany you buying 5 Malinios for cost of high line show dog and as I say before is not as good as excellent working line dog but they are better than average working line dog is my point. Becuase dog is from working lines, doesnt meaning dog is any good what they do here on the backyard on the breeding bitch, she chase a ball, she bite a sleeve and she stranger aggressive from unstable nerve some thinking makes good dog for breeding and is good enough test of character and drive of ther dog.

If chasing the ball, biting the sleeve and bark at strangers is better test than earning Kkl1 VA German rating, you welcome to your opnion.

Joe

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never stated anything like you have written above is any kind of good test. Instead I said it's up to the breeder/buyer to get educated about working temperament if thats the direction they are going for instead of relying solely on titles without further evaluation. It depends what you mean by average ? Sure not every WL is going to cut the mustard but I find it really misleading if you say the WLs we have here in australia don't compare to VA german showlines in working ability ? Or maybe I have misunderstood ?

[kateshep]

Kateshep,

Wouldn't you consider with any knowledge of GSD breedings to explain to someone beginning to learn that dogs who have passed a German breed survey and received a Kkl rating have undergone the highest breed suitabilty testing process than the one's who haven't and is more likey that progeny from stringently tested dogs will possess the authentic character balance required of the GSD?.

No.

Look where the stringent testing and evaluation in germany has gotten the german showline. It's no secret the major emphasis has been on pursuing conformation traits. Which is why as a result of neglection of working ability there is a WL/SL split even though back in the 60's, 70's there was no such thing they were mostly the same dog, same pedigree. And why the original poster of this thread is looking for a gsd with a straight back, because thanks to judges and breeders awarding and breeding to dogs with more exaggerated traits- (the ones who have gotten the highly esteemed KKL1 and high conformation ratings), which is evidence even the general public are becoming more aware of it.

[PetSitters]

Kateshep,

Wouldn't you consider with any knowledge of GSD breedings to explain to someone beginning to learn that dogs who have passed a German breed survey and received a Kkl rating have undergone the highest breed suitabilty testing process than the one's who haven't and is more likey that progeny from stringently tested dogs will possess the authentic character balance required of the GSD?.

No.

Look where the stringent testing and evaluation in germany has gotten the german showline. It's no secret the major emphasis has been on pursuing conformation traits. Which is why as a result of neglection of working ability there is a WL/SL split even though back in the 60's, 70's there was no such thing they were mostly the same dog, same pedigree. And why the original poster of this thread is looking for a gsd with a straight back, because thanks to judges and breeders awarding and breeding to dogs with more exaggerated traits- (the ones who have gotten the highly esteemed KKL1 and high conformation ratings), which is evidence even the general public are becoming more aware of it.

I think you are missing the point Kateshep as your post was in response about a breeder advertising a showline litter from two VA Kkl1 SchH3 imported dogs and what JoeK said was the progeny from this calibre breeding is likely to have a better working ability than an "average" Australian bred working line dog? The litter was advertised as suitable for "anything" including SAR, protection etc and from what I can make of your posts, you are doubting this could be possible because they are showline dogs with the assumption that any run of the mill GSD could attain a SchH3 and receive a Kkl1 rating as the testing process to achieve this has little relevence with working ability or quality control in relation to the breed standards compliance, am I correct?

The answer "no" to my question you are saying that someone new to the breed who reads the breed standards of what a good GSD is supposed possess, are better off selecting a pup from ancestory that haven't been work tested whatsoever in the last 5 generations as the rated dogs in this example doesn't really reflect anything substantial in terms of working ability or the general character of the dog?

[jacqui835]

So can a GSD be stacked in the All Breeds ring 4 square, or just the White Swiss Shepherd ???

Also, without causing any conflict, I have always wondered why the GSD is stacked like that. Could someone please enlighten me as to why ...

Thank you. Am now looking into the option of a white shepherd

On another note: I understand now that they can be stacked like that. My concern is that I have seen GSD's in parks in both Sydney and Adelaide who have what I can only describe as a curvy back and their legs go outwards at the back, and almost wobble when they walk. They are slow and unco-ordinated. In fact, I almost never see shepherds without these features, and so I just assumed that every breeder who has photos of their dogs looking like this (and no photos of their dogs otherwise)had these dogs with the curvy backs - like that it was a common thing and a trait breeders were selectively breeding for.

This has been an interesting and enlightening read.

[Bilbo Baggins]