Dog / Wolf Comparison:

[poodlefan]

Eta PF the African Painted dog (sp Lycaon pictus) cannot be the ancestor of dogs as dogs have been identified genetically as Canis lupus, not Lycaon pictus.

[WoofnHoof]

Eta PF the African Painted dog (sp Lycaon pictus) cannot be the ancestor of dogs as dogs have been identified genetically as Canis lupus, not Lycaon pictus.

Sorry

[corvus]

It's quite common for the ancestral or wild type of a species to be used for comparison to the domesticated type, doesn't mean anyone is under the illusion that they are exactly the same.

Do you think that wolves and dogs are a more meaningful comparison than, say, dingoes and dogs? Which one is the wild type? As far as I can tell they both are, but wolves and dingoes are different again. If you're going to compare dogs to an ancestral type for whatever reason, why pick wolves over dingoes, NGSD, Carolina Dog etc?

[poodlefan]

Eta PF the African Painted dog (sp Lycaon pictus) cannot be the ancestor of dogs as dogs have been identified genetically as Canis lupus, not Lycaon pictus.

Sorry

Don't be.

[Aidan3]

It's quite common for the ancestral or wild type of a species to be used for comparison to the domesticated type, doesn't mean anyone is under the illusion that they are exactly the same.

Do you think that wolves and dogs are a more meaningful comparison than, say, dingoes and dogs? Which one is the wild type? As far as I can tell they both are, but wolves and dingoes are different again. If you're going to compare dogs to an ancestral type for whatever reason, why pick wolves over dingoes, NGSD, Carolina Dog etc?

Or we could just study dogs Seems like a winner to me!

There is some fascinating research on stray dogs, and it really highlights how adaptive dogs are. Forming a pack may not be so much innate as it is adaptive. If it infers an advantage to form loose associations or no associations at all, that is what dogs will do.

There are a lot of parallels in other social constructs that have been studied such as language, gender etc

[poodlefan]

Did anyone catch the news report last week on the increasing problems caused by feral dogs in the USA. The story highlighted a dog attack on a woman by a feral dog pack.. she died.

[WoofnHoof]

It's quite common for the ancestral or wild type of a species to be used for comparison to the domesticated type, doesn't mean anyone is under the illusion that they are exactly the same.

Do you think that wolves and dogs are a more meaningful comparison than, say, dingoes and dogs? Which one is the wild type? As far as I can tell they both are, but wolves and dingoes are different again. If you're going to compare dogs to an ancestral type for whatever reason, why pick wolves over dingoes, NGSD, Carolina Dog etc?

I agree that it's worthy and useful to study all of them, I think the focus has been on wolves as the most available traceable ancestor of all forms of dogs so it's ultimately looking at the roots and origins which then gives us a starting point to then see how the different forms of dogs have diverged from the origin. When you are looking at dingos etc you are looking at a parallel branch of the family tree as opposed to the trunk or root to use that analogy. Wolves are the trunk/root, dogs in their various domestic and regional wild forms have all grown from that original source diverging at different stages and due to different influences so it makes sense that most of the study has been done on the source, but yes there is cause to study all forms of divergence especially when in consideration of the modern dog we need to look at how some of those branches have intertwined for example with kelpies and cattle dogs having fair influence from dingo stock in their development.

[Dogsrawesome]

Did anyone catch the news report last week on the increasing problems caused by feral dogs in the USA. The story highlighted a dog attack on a woman by a feral dog pack.. she died.

Was that the one on foxtel if so i have seen it

[jacqui835]

I saw a very interesting documentary a while back on the evolution of dogs. They made a very interesting point that although you can't take the wolf out of a wolf (ie it will never be a dog regardless of how you raise it), a wolf can accept and relate to a human on some level. The african hunting dog on the other hand never could - even if you raised it from birth, the african hunting dog always looked at the human as completely foreign and as something to be feared. So you can train a wolf to a degree, but you could not achieve the same results with the african hunting dog.

[jackie_a1]

http://selfhelpdogtraining.com/wordpress/?p=124

You all need to read this blog.

Very experienced very good US trainers. Might learn something.

[Aidan3]

http://selfhelpdogtraining.com/wordpress/?p=124

You all need to read this blog.

Very experienced very good US trainers. Might learn something.

Thanks for the link. I really don't mean any offence to you, Jackie, but that blog was a string of logical fallacies that somehow lead to a reasonable conclusion - a conclusion which was wholly compliant with the APDT position statement that they had just spent the rest of the blog trying to discredit (using logical fallacies).

[corvus]

Well, I've certainly been edumacated. :rolleyes:

[jackie_a1]

That's ok Aidan more than happy for a discussion

Corvus before you're so quick to deem every training method out dated or old school or useless. Look at the work these trainers do. Jump on their website. They are great trainers. People will always have an opinion about what they believe is the best training method but no one said you had to use one. There can be a variety. This is the same crap I see you dissing on Mr Milan for too. Because you don't agree with his methods. You don't agree? But look at his great rehabilitation work? Look how many dogs he has in his care etc. You all argue that it is abuse? That is opinion. I would love to meet Mr Milan he is great. Self educated. Now I'm not saying his methods should be applied to ALL dogs I don't think as a trainer you should need to have or use only one method. If positive works for one it may not work for another?

Corvus you're all about positive I would love to give you Rajah and see how you go with him. Not food orientated, not treat orientated, not praise orientated he likes the flirt pole but other than that? You could stand there with any food in the world he wont even look at you he just does not like food he'll eat dinner but he does not take treats outside of the yard ever. So for example I wanted you to train him to sit and stay very simple how would you? And I don't mean in a quiet non distraction environment (in the yard) I mean in a heavy distraction area. E.G park with plenty of other dogs there (he is very dog orientated). How would you do so? Like I said he will not take food from you. How would you do so in positive? The flirt pole is his exercise tool but I haven't tried it as a training tool.

There are other dogs roaming around not necessarily near him but within sight. How would you ensure Rajah does not run off while keeping his focus with your positive other than the obvious a lead? Like I said HE WILL NOT take food from you I guarantee. So how would you train him? Interesting question. Entire six year old male. No aggression issues or anything like that just very bad recall and focus when dogs are around. Due to the entirety likes to roam and pee. His recall is about 80 percent. Needs to be better.

It is a legit question cause I don't use positive with him so I would like to see if what you recommend will work.

[jackie_a1]

By the way Rajah knows sit, drop, stay, come, beg, give (release what is in his mouth immediately), speak, search and jump (over things etc) He is well behaved in general. But whenever there is dogs within sight he gets excited and distracted. On leash perfect because I use check chains (Oh no I'm an animal abuser) but off leash recall needs to be better ONLY when other dogs around otherwise it's good. Boss is perfect. Boss is treat and click trained so positive works great with him. Rajah is not so easily given into currency.

[Aidan3]

I can't answer for corvus, but I would use the flirt pole. If he will take the flirt pole, he would almost certainly also play tug but you might need a certain level of fitness (you become the "pole", the rag has to move the same way, always away too, never toward - they are descended from wolves - remember? ;) )

You would start in a low-distraction area then when he does it 4 times out of 5 trials (cold, from the start of a new training session), then introduce a distraction - systematically, set him up for success. If recalling around other dogs is Level 100, start at Level 1, then move to Level 2 etc It doesn't matter if you're doing it with food or an e-collar, you aim for 80% (success 4/5) before moving up, reward each time he gets it right until he's 99% at Level 100.

If you can do this without a long line or corrections then you are doing it right. I do use a long-line and I do reel them in, just be careful not to end up with a dog who needs to feel a gentle tug before they respond (as I'm sure you're aware).

I would also have him taking food around other dogs. Sorry - call me stubborn, deluded or up-myself, but I would. I cannot tell you how many times someone has come to me and said "my dog isn't food motivated". Unless your dog has a terminal disease or is in the category of dogs that really should be medicated for anxiety, he is food motivated and I will make it happen (without deprivation) 100% of the time. It's just a matter of easing them into it. Once you get them started, you will usually not have any problems.

But just use the flirt pole, there is no reason not to.

[Aidan3]

Sorry, should have PMd, going completely off-topic here

[jackie_a1]

Thanks heaps Aidan!!

Oh sorry for off topicing it That's actually really good! Oh I'm fit I run the boys for two hours daily then forty minutes flirt pole He doesn't enjoy tug as much as he loves the lure. That's a real good idea! I might take some video and see how we go.

[jackie_a1]

I've tried every food liver, pork, cheese, crumbles, motivators etc his distraction is far too high and his a pet shop puppy so he as issues. He was very fussy when younger ad would probably only eat once every two days that is without me feeding him I just leave the food out I know he wont starve.

Very lure orientated. Bossington will eat the fingers off your hand if you let him.

Sorry Aidan what breeds do you own and what methods do you use mainly with yours? And do you use e collars also or are you against them?

[jackie_a1]

Or should I maybe pm you cause I'm off topicing again

[sandgrubber]

Good pick! I think DOL needs to set up a pinned topic for good (or relevant . . . sometimes it's good to keep track of the anti-pedigree dog community) blogs.

http://selfhelpdogtr...ordpress/?p=124

You all need to read this blog.

Very experienced very good US trainers. Might learn something.