Puppy Plan Panned In Ballan

[toy dog]

geelong advertiser

please read the comments below article as "they" attack VCA members. we see still trying to pull the wool over the publics eyes but i think the public is getting wiser which is good to see.

Edited June 4, 2011 by toy dog

[Steve]

Well who is trying to pull what wool?

that photo has nothing whatever to do with that application and in fact is taken from a registered breeders property.

the application has been knocked back because "The shire knocked back the application due to a lack of a waste management plan, failure to provide noise abatement plans and a potential negative impact on the area's ecology'" just as it would for any business - not because its breeding dogs - which heaven forbid may not be VCA registered!

Once again beat em up for trying to get it right and then sook when everyone stops trying to get it right and does it under the radar.

[toy dog]

steve! i am referring to the comments below the article not the article itself, have you scrolled down to the comments??? you are obviously referring to the council but it has to go to VCAT first and VCAT are sometimes known to favour the puppy farmer. i don't dispute the fact that the council have done the right thing here it appears anyway.

we are actually referring to one farmer who has got on there and condemmed the VCA and its members they are trying to say thats its fine to breed dogs for profit in large puppy farms???????? im referring to these puppy farmers who often pull the wool over the publics eyes on their right to have these large farms with hundreds of x-bred dogs and their right to breed for profit with no forethought for welfare. meanwhile spin porkies to the average joe/jane public to make it sound all fluffy and nice so they can still buy their pups.

ETA: i don't agree with the comment either that these farms are regularly inspected so its all good, its bullcrap, as i know of several that are regularly inspected yet when the authorities backs are turned there are still welfare issues and cruelty big time which i wont go into. government sanctioned cruelty they call it. big woop they are inspected. the one that got raided in gippsland was regularly inspected yet there was major welfare issues there as the RSPCA helped clean that farm up. another farmer in this same area got taken to court over the care of their dogs yet was given a permit to breed up more dogs. so thats regular DPI/council inspections hard at work there.

if you read down the comments, they are saying that other farm that was caught and closed down was VCA reg breeder, and it does happen that sometimes they were or are registered with VCA but really why should the ethical breeders have to cop negative comments about our organisation just because a few people don't do the right thing??? Does it mean we are all like this, no.

i always say there are farmers in amongst ANKC breeders too just because they are reg doesn't make them any better than anyone else. public have to screen and know how to screen to ensure they are ethical, they are on the right track if they choose a breeder who doesn't breed for profit and a breeder that doesn't farm their dogs.

Edited June 4, 2011 by toy dog

[toy dog]

Once again beat em up for trying to get it right and then sook when everyone stops trying to get it right and does it under the radar.

just want to address this comment, an animal inspection officer that i know off, actually checks newspaper adverts for litters advertised then poses as a buyer to inspect these farmers under the radar. and if they reg their dog as not desexed then they are monitored.

there are alot of people apparently in the gippsland area that are "under the radar" anyway not going to be able to stop them, what we want to see is these large farms (one in gippsland is the biggest in victoria and this farm that had its application refused by the council was going to top that) closed down for good we have no need in society for large farms like this at all whether they are registered and regularly inspected or not. period. thats what we'd like to see happen. regularly inspected as they so call it is not working at all.

[Steve]

Once again beat em up for trying to get it right and then sook when everyone stops trying to get it right and does it under the radar.

just want to address this comment, an animal inspection officer that i know off, actually checks newspaper adverts for litters advertised then poses as a buyer to inspect these farmers under the radar. and if they reg their dog as not desexed then they are monitored.

there are alot of people apparently in the gippsland area that are "under the radar" anyway not going to be able to stop them, what we want to see is these large farms (one in gippsland is the biggest in victoria and this farm that had its application refused by the council was going to top that) closed down for good we have no need in society for large farms like this at all whether they are registered and regularly inspected or not. period. thats what we'd like to see happen. regularly inspected as they so call it is not working at all.

When was the last time you were inspected? It amazes me that you dont want to be judged based on what one VCA breeder did but its O.K. to judge anyone who wants a permit to breed dogs the same as you do another who you say gets it wrong. They are doing what they are supposed to do and applying to use their own land the way they want to by complying with council regs. They intend to be out in the open and work within mandatory codes.If it doesnt fit the criteria they get knocked back but in the mean time we beat em up for even asking. Then go nah nah nah nah nah when they have to fix something. If you dont want them to use registered breeders who get pinged against you then you had better stop using anone who gets it wrong against them. Because they are going to get you on it every single time.

[toy dog]

i have no problem with someone from the VCA inspecting my premises and every breeder to ensure we are upholding the rules and regulations that we all sign up for. if members have something to hide maybe they would object? as it is VCA members do not get inspected by the council and no one inspects them so they could be a farmer/.backyarder in disguise and no one regulates these people. it makes no difference if a person is registered or not.

oddly enough some members re: puppy farm issue that VCA had a meeting on, asked for an inspection officer who regularly does this job out in the field, at the moment all they have is an officer who comes out if the members request it and you have to pay for this officer to come out.

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do? out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

if you question a puppy farmer on what their policy is with taking back what they bred, the answer is usually, we have no responsibility once the pups leaves our premises. this is why our shelters are full because no one takes the responsibility. is breeding dogs on their property like livestock their own business, when we see the product of this over breeding in shelters and then they compare us to these money hungry intense breeding operations?

i know what your line of thinking is judging by a similar subject a while ago where we debated a similar subject. penalise these large farms where they churn out 2000 puppies a year and regulate then they end up regulating all of us too. what gives us the right to say we are the only ones to breed puppies.

my answer would be that you cannot compare a hobby breeder with maybe 2 or less than 2 litters a year to breed for a purpose and not for profit breeding puppies with health tests (farms don't test their crosses because it costs too much its all about profit)reared in a family home to these large puppy farms thoughtlessly churning out pups left, right and centre its like comparing chalk to cheese.

the problem is that the public have no idea where to get a dog and it should be more publised there is a better way to get a well bred dog rather than buying from a farm/petshop and i see that allowing these farms to continue does nothing to stop anything.

puppy farms should be outlawed and the only way a person can buy a puppy is from a registered breeder who is regulated not a farm.

[Steve]

No you miss the point . Im saying we want them to be out in the open. Apply for DA's make sure their facilities are all in keeping with the codes and where we have to go to find them and inspect them. If you have a someone who is keeping an eye on people who register dogs which are not desexed in that shire then people will simply not register their dogs inthat shire if they are not desexed. .If you go after them and try to ping them when they advertise to sell their puppies they will sell their puppies via the net or via an agent. Ifthey are advertising puppies and people are visiting their property to buy isnt that preferrable than chasing them underground because they are terrorised and harrassed when they try to do it openly.

I am reminding you that in some circles people believe that breeding purebred dogs for the show ring even if you only breed one litter is every bit as cruel and as big a welfare issue as anything else.

Give merit where its due - they have applied for a DA and been up front about what they will do and that is what we are aiming for because we already know we cant stop them unless we know where they are and we are able to watch them.

The reality is that some large scale breeders are doing a pretty good job and have facilities all of us should be envious of and everyone who is not biased toward purebred registered breeders can see that .

[toy dog]

No you miss the point . Im saying we want them to be out in the open. Apply for DA's make sure their facilities are all in keeping with the codes and where we have to go to find them and inspect them. If you have a someone who is keeping an eye on people who register dogs which are not desexed in that shire then people will simply not register their dogs inthat shire if they are not desexed. .If you go after them and try to ping them when they advertise to sell their puppies they will sell their puppies via the net or via an agent. Ifthey are advertising puppies and people are visiting their property to buy isnt that preferrable than chasing them underground because they are terrorised and harrassed when they try to do it openly.

I am reminding you that in some circles people believe that breeding purebred dogs for the show ring even if you only breed one litter is every bit as cruel and as big a welfare issue as anything else.

Give merit where its due - they have applied for a DA and been up front about what they will do and that is what we are aiming for because we already know we cant stop them unless we know where they are and we are able to watch them.

The reality is that some large scale breeders are doing a pretty good job and have facilities all of us should be envious of and everyone who is not biased toward purebred registered breeders can see that .

when you talk of large scale breeders are you talking about ANKC breeders or a puppy farm where they house designer dogs? i am talking about the later i am not talking about large scale ANKC breeders. i am of the opinion that breeding regularly should be looked at as it is in this state by the controlling body anyway. That might be true what you say and i can't disagree with that, but how many do they let through 20, 30 farms all churning out puppies? as there are this many in an well known area with many under the radar on top of this number.

online adverts and other sources not just in the papers are also monitored so all avenues are covered.

the one farm i mentioned earlier who got taken to court because they failed to meet the requirements of the law, dogs were not looked after properly there was abuse, still got a permit and is still churning out puppies, so how do we stop farms like this when even the law fails these dogs? once they have a permit to breed there is no stopping them. Councils havent the resources to properly manage them as it is left to them to manage and they have said as much many times. The councils haven't the staff.

so who stops them once its all started? the farmers fail to meet requirements and they get rewarded with a permit or renewal of a permit anyway.

the point that i originally made was that the public is slowly becoming aware of puppy farms and how the dogs are kept in cages breeding until they can't breed anymore and are discarded.

articles like these gives voice to these facts and gives them info on where the public should be going. Printing it whereever we can helps to foil sales. because of the bad publicity one farm received, their sales were down so they changed their name so it does work.

its up to the public really isn't it. the public through education have the power to stop all this mass breeding and this was our original point, slowly but surely the public are becoming much wiser than they were before about puppy farms and pups being bred for profit only.

the proof is in the comments after these sorts of articles and what the public say most say stop breeding dogs on farms. which is good.

Edited June 4, 2011 by toy dog

[BJean]

oddly enough some members re: puppy farm issue that VCA had a meeting on, asked for an inspection officer who regularly does this job out in the field, at the moment all they have is an officer who comes out if the members request it and you have to pay for this officer to come out.

Hardly surprising

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do? out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

omg so much emotive hyperbole where to start ...

http://www.savingpets.com.au/2010/06/overpopulation-disguises-the-true-cause-of-shelter-killing/

if you question a puppy farmer on what their policy is with taking back what they bred, the answer is usually, we have no responsibility once the pups leaves our premises. this is why our shelters are full because no one takes the responsibility. is breeding dogs on their property like livestock their own business, when we see the product of this overbreeding in shelters and then they compare us to these money hungry intense breeding operations?

I hope you are not on the DogsVic advisory committee ... so much misinformation!

i know what your line of thinking is judging by a similar subject a while ago where we debated a similar subject. penalise these large farms where they churn out 2000 puppies a year and regulate then they end up regulating all of us too. what gives us the right to say we are the only ones to breed puppies.

my answer would be that you cannot compare a hobby breeder with maybe 2 or less than 2 litters a year to breed for a purpose and not for profit breeding puppies with health tests (farms don't test their crosses because it costs too much its all about profit)reared in a family home to these large puppy farms thoughtlessly churning out pups left, right and centre its like comparing chalk to cheese.

the problem is that the public have no idea where to get a dog and it should be more publised there is a better way to get a well bred dog rather than buying from a farm/petshop and i see that allowing these farms to continue does nothing to stop anything.

puppy farms should be outlawed and the only way a person can buy a puppy is from a registered breeder who is regulated not a farm.

How many litters per year does a good registered breeder have?

What is a registered breeder?

The ANKC requires the breeding of inbred dogs with health problems - if I dont want to breed a cripple, I will not breed an registered ANKC puppy of that breed. How is breeding ANKC registered dogs of this breed a good thing?

Edited June 4, 2011 by lilli

[toy dog]

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do? out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

omg so much emotive hyperbole where to start

http://www.savingpets.com.au/2010/06/overpopulation-disguises-the-true-cause-of-shelter-killing/

i assure you it isn't "hyperbole" what ever that means, i assume it means emotional crap. we have lived in an area for over 25 years our family dealing with these people i talk off and have had first hand experience with a few and i know what their opinion is.

if you question a puppy farmer on what their policy is with taking back what they bred, the answer is usually, we have no responsibility once the pups leaves our premises. this is why our shelters are full because no one takes the responsibility. is breeding dogs on their property like livestock their own business, when we see the product of this overbreeding in shelters and then they compare us to these money hungry intense breeding operations?

I hope you are not on the DogsVic advisory committee ... so much misinformation!

so explain to me what the misinformation is then? and by whose standards is it misinfo. the article you refer to is just one opinion im going on having first hand experience with these kinds of people. you mean to say that if a farmer churns out 2000 pups a year and does not actively take back any pups bred that the puppy owner does not want anymore its physically impossible to track that many puppies in homes and make sure they stay in good homes, this somehow doesn't add to the numbers wanting homes in shelters? it is common sense.

sure i agree with having a no kill shelter, fostering out animals until homes can be found i don't agree with killing healthy animals. alot more should be no kill and its proven to work. you only have to look at such sites as petrescue and see the dozens of dogs wanting homes to know that we have a big problem.

How many litters per year does a good registered breeder have?

What is a registered breeder? The ANKC requires the breeding of inbred dogs with health problems - if I dont want to breed a cripple, I will not breed an registered ANKC puppy of that breed. How is breeding ANKC registered dogs of this breed a good thing?

im not going to get into the positives and negatives of a pedigree dog and what a registered breeder is, we all know what we are referring to im sure, how does inbreeding get into it. This thread is about how the public identifies puppy farms and how they feel about them, surely breeding over 2000 pups PER FARM and times that by 30 farms across the region, impacts on numbers trying to find homes. my point is we have enough dogs needing adoption in shelters and rescue without adding to it by breeding up puppies in mills.

i made the comment on no one taking responsiblity and i've come to that conclusion through discussion with people who backyard breed and their feelings towardsthe puppies they produce. most have said they would not take any dogs back, the dogs are on their own. if all breeders took responsiblity for what they bred then this would significantly reduce numbers in shelters too.

there really wasn't a problem going back 30 years ago i was there i saw what it was like, the good old days where a pedigree was worth more than a mutt, but since these large scale farms have come on the scene and the promotion of the dreaded designer dog, there is now a bigger problem than there ever was adn there are many theories of how to deal with it and what we need to do as a society. what gets my dander up is reg breeders who do the right thing get coupled in with the profit makers and are accused they are contributing the ever growing problem.

[Steve]

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do? out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

omg so much emotive hyperbole where to start

http://www.savingpet...helter-killing/

i assure you it isn't "hyperbole" what ever that means, i assume it means emotional crap. we have lived in an area for over 25 years our family dealing with these people i talk off and have had first hand experience with a few and i know what their opinion is.

if you question a puppy farmer on what their policy is with taking back what they bred, the answer is usually, we have no responsibility once the pups leaves our premises. this is why our shelters are full because no one takes the responsibility. is breeding dogs on their property like livestock their own business, when we see the product of this overbreeding in shelters and then they compare us to these money hungry intense breeding operations?

I hope you are not on the DogsVic advisory committee ... so much misinformation!

so explain to me what the misinformation is then? and by whose standards is it misinfo. the article you refer to is just one opinion im going on having first hand experience with these kinds of people. you mean to say that if a farmer churns out 2000 pups a year and does not actively take back any pups bred that the puppy owner does not want anymore its physically impossible to track that many puppies in homes and make sure they stay in good homes, this somehow doesn't add to the numbers wanting homes in shelters? it is common sense.

sure i agree with having a no kill shelter, fostering out animals until homes can be found i don't agree with killing healthy animals. alot more should be no kill and its proven to work. you only have to look at such sites as petrescue and see the dozens of dogs wanting homes to know that we have a big problem.

How many litters per year does a good registered breeder have?

What is a registered breeder? The ANKC requires the breeding of inbred dogs with health problems - if I dont want to breed a cripple, I will not breed an registered ANKC puppy of that breed. How is breeding ANKC registered dogs of this breed a good thing?

im not going to get into the positives and negatives of a pedigree dog and what a registered breeder is, we all know what we are referring to im sure, how does inbreeding get into it. This thread is about how the public identifies puppy farms and how they feel about them, surely breeding over 2000 pups PER FARM and times that by 30 farms across the region, impacts on numbers trying to find homes. my point is we have enough dogs needing adoption in shelters and rescue without adding to it by breeding up puppies in mills.

i made the comment on no one taking responsiblity and i've come to that conclusion through discussion with people who backyard breed and their feelings towardsthe puppies they produce. most have said they would not take any dogs back, the dogs are on their own. if all breeders took responsiblity for what they bred then this would significantly reduce numbers in shelters too.

there really wasn't a problem going back 30 years ago i was there i saw what it was like, the good old days where a pedigree was worth more than a mutt, but since these large scale farms have come on the scene and the promotion of the dreaded designer dog, there is now a bigger problem than there ever was adn there are many theories of how to deal with it and what we need to do as a society. what gets my dander up is reg breeders who do the right thing get coupled in with the profit makers and are accused they are contributing the ever growing problem.

When ever you can show me that all registered breeders take their own back Il say you may have a point.The reality is that most registered breeders dont take their own back and that is a fact backed up by any rescue group you want to speak with.

[toy dog]

When ever you can show me that all registered breeders take their own back Il say you may have a point.The reality is that most registered breeders dont take their own back and that is a fact backed up by any rescue group you want to speak with.

and im not wearing rose coloured glasses to be able to state a blanket statement like that about ALL reg breeders take back their dogs i have witnesed SOME not willing to take their dogs back and their dogs ending up luckily in rescue. i didn't say that i believe ALL reg breeders take back their dogs?? i said if all reg breeders and other breeders took responsibility for what they bred then society wouldn't be in this predicament.

How would rescues come to the conclusion that MOST reg breeders do this? until there is a survey or study on this we are only speculating aren't we. Maybe the dogs are coming from one or two breeders who make it look like there are high numbers being abandoned. the breeders exhibitors that i have come in contact with and that is all breed clubs for over 25 years or so that i've been heavily involved in and with the community as well and several breed clubs thrown in the mix have certainly been good in that respect but there is always that odd person out isn't there that doesn't give a damn..

i know i'd be horified if one of my babies i bred ended up in the shelter i'd quickly bail it out but usually i track all my puppies sold and make sure nothing happens like that. highly unlikely to happen with a farmer just interested in the $ its no benefit to them profit wise to take any dogs back as i got told many times by farmers themselves.

[Steve]

Rescues come to this conclusion by keeping stats on how many registered breeders who are contacted when one of their dogs turn up are interested in taking their dogs back over those who are not. Most are not.

Some breeders take their dogs back if they get into trouble some dont - regardless of which group they belong to unless their code of conduct covers this [MDBA]

Of course there are some things some breeders do which make them less likely to have one of their dogs turn up in rescue but you cannot make statements about one group as if the other never does the same thing because people seeing what you are saying can CLEARLY see and find evidence to show that one member of any group may be doing what you accuse the other of. If you are going to use these things as a demonstration as to why one person should not breed dogs then your argument is automatically cancelled out when this is seen.

Puppy mills are breeding establishments run by people with little concern for the welfare of their puppies or their breeding dogs. Purely and simply they are criminals and should be reported and prosecuted - regardless of whether they breed cross bred or registered purebred dogs. People who are applying for DA'S are saying they will do what they do with regard to the welfare of the dogs. They will comply with laws and mandatory codes and know they will be watched and inspected.

This is the goal isnt it?

Apart from the obvious suffering to dogs these puppy mills cause, all dog breeders are tainted by their existence. Animal rights, and anti-breeding activists find kennels with filthy, squalid conditions, get the media interested, and use them for press releases, articles, and fund-raising campaigns against all dog breeders. These days even if someone applies they are beaten up and cheers go up when they dont get their application. Why on earth would anyone do that to themselves? Basically what we are saying to all breeders [registered and crossbred breeders] is - If you are going to own more than a couple of dogs you need to apply for a DA. then Stick your head out and apply and then you are exposed and we will do all we can to tell the world you are an animal abuser and do all we can to prevent you being able to breed dogs.So tell me does someone who wants to run a business in one shire and is knocked back simply never open that business or do they normally find somewhere else to operate ?.

By carrying on like this each time someone applies all it does is make sure people stop applying.

[toy dog]

Rescues come to this conclusion by keeping stats on how many registered breeders who are contacted when one of their dogs turn up are interested in taking their dogs back over those who are not. Most are not.

Some breeders take their dogs back if they get into trouble some dont - regardless of which group they belong to unless their code of conduct covers this [MDBA]

Of course there are some things some breeders do which make them less likely to have one of their dogs turn up in rescue but you cannot make statements about one group as if the other never does the same thing because people seeing what you are saying can CLEARLY see and find evidence to show that one member of any group may be doing what you accuse the other of. If you are going to use these things as a demonstration as to why one person should not breed dogs then your argument is automatically cancelled out when this is seen.

Puppy mills are breeding establishments run by people with little concern for the welfare of their puppies or their breeding dogs. Purely and simply they are criminals and should be reported and prosecuted - regardless of whether they breed cross bred or registered purebred dogs. People who are applying for DA'S are saying they will do what they do with regard to the welfare of the dogs. They will comply with laws and mandatory codes and know they will be watched and inspected.

This is the goal isnt it?

Apart from the obvious suffering to dogs these puppy mills cause, all dog breeders are tainted by their existence. Animal rights, and anti-breeding activists find kennels with filthy, squalid conditions, get the media interested, and use them for press releases, articles, and fund-raising campaigns against all dog breeders. These days even if someone applies they are beaten up and cheers go up when they dont get their application. Why on earth would anyone do that to themselves? Basically what we are saying to all breeders [registered and crossbred breeders] is - If you are going to own more than a couple of dogs you need to apply for a DA. then Stick your head out and apply and then you are exposed and we will do all we can to tell the world you are an animal abuser and do all we can to prevent you being able to breed dogs.So tell me does someone who wants to run a business in one shire and is knocked back simply never open that business or do they normally find somewhere else to operate ?.

By carrying on like this each time someone applies all it does is make sure people stop applying.

i do see your point. if they get knocked back in one shire they go to the shire who has accepted more farms than any other shire in Victoria - they are making a squillon on dog reg fees and permits, i heard conflicting reports of some farms not approved while others have said they haven't knocked back any, i don't know what is the truth. another recently got raided again and the owner came out and said they are different to other farms yet undercover people have seen how the dogs are treated but this farm is inspected. workers on the farm have come out and said how the dogs are treated and its not pretty what the owners get up to behind closed doors.

as i said before it really is up to the public to stop the supply by not buying a puppy farm dog or a petshop puppy. it constantly amazes me how they can sell all these pups from their farms and through other sources like shops and newspaper adverts, don't the buyers read up.it also amazes me how these days we have so much information at our finger tips re: the internet yet still people still buy from these sources

500,000, or half a million, puppies are estimated to be sold in pet shops each year. The idea that there aren’t loving families looking for pets (overpopulation), is blown out of the water, when you consider that there is a constant stream of homes available to these pets. Even in the face of high pet shop prices ($400 – $1,500).

really there is no dispute about the fact that puppies can have good homes but the focus is more on where those puppies have come from, supporting a petshop or buying online from a large farm fuels this industry. i always buy my supplies from a petshop that doesn't sell puppies or one that supports shelters dogs like petbarn in Melbourne here. Petstock is another one i support as they promote rescue groups as well.

[Steve]

Rescues come to this conclusion by keeping stats on how many registered breeders who are contacted when one of their dogs turn up are interested in taking their dogs back over those who are not. Most are not.

Some breeders take their dogs back if they get into trouble some dont - regardless of which group they belong to unless their code of conduct covers this [MDBA]

Of course there are some things some breeders do which make them less likely to have one of their dogs turn up in rescue but you cannot make statements about one group as if the other never does the same thing because people seeing what you are saying can CLEARLY see and find evidence to show that one member of any group may be doing what you accuse the other of. If you are going to use these things as a demonstration as to why one person should not breed dogs then your argument is automatically cancelled out when this is seen.

Puppy mills are breeding establishments run by people with little concern for the welfare of their puppies or their breeding dogs. Purely and simply they are criminals and should be reported and prosecuted - regardless of whether they breed cross bred or registered purebred dogs. People who are applying for DA'S are saying they will do what they do with regard to the welfare of the dogs. They will comply with laws and mandatory codes and know they will be watched and inspected.

This is the goal isnt it?

Apart from the obvious suffering to dogs these puppy mills cause, all dog breeders are tainted by their existence. Animal rights, and anti-breeding activists find kennels with filthy, squalid conditions, get the media interested, and use them for press releases, articles, and fund-raising campaigns against all dog breeders. These days even if someone applies they are beaten up and cheers go up when they dont get their application. Why on earth would anyone do that to themselves? Basically what we are saying to all breeders [registered and crossbred breeders] is - If you are going to own more than a couple of dogs you need to apply for a DA. then Stick your head out and apply and then you are exposed and we will do all we can to tell the world you are an animal abuser and do all we can to prevent you being able to breed dogs.So tell me does someone who wants to run a business in one shire and is knocked back simply never open that business or do they normally find somewhere else to operate ?.

By carrying on like this each time someone applies all it does is make sure people stop applying.

i do see your point. if they get knocked back in one shire they go to the shire who has accepted more farms than any other shire in Victoria - they are making a squillon on dog reg fees and permits, i heard conflicting reports of some farms not approved while others have said they haven't knocked back any, i don't know what is the truth. another recently got raided again and the owner came out and said they are different to other farms yet undercover people have seen how the dogs are treated but this farm is inspected. workers on the farm have come out and said how the dogs are treated and its not pretty what the owners get up to behind closed doors.

as i said before it really is up to the public to stop the supply by not buying a puppy farm dog or a petshop puppy. it constantly amazes me how they can sell all these pups from their farms and through other sources like shops and newspaper adverts, don't the buyers read up.it also amazes me how these days we have so much information at our finger tips re: the internet yet still people still buy from these sources

500,000, or half a million, puppies are estimated to be sold in pet shops each year. The idea that there aren't loving families looking for pets (overpopulation), is blown out of the water, when you consider that there is a constant stream of homes available to these pets. Even in the face of high pet shop prices ($400 – $1,500).

really there is no dispute about the fact that puppies can have good homes but the focus is more on where those puppies have come from, supporting a petshop or buying online from a large farm fuels this industry. i always buy my supplies from a petshop that doesn't sell puppies or one that supports shelters dogs like petbarn in Melbourne here. Petstock is another one i support as they promote rescue groups as well.

People buy puppies from mass produced farms and from pet shops because there isnt anywhere else to buy them. We are a dying race and dont go even a quarter of the way of breeding enough puppies to fill the demand.We are controlling and demanding of those who want our puppies. If you want a puppy and dont want to jump through breeder hoops and cant find one anywhere else you take the risk rather than not have a puppy at all.

[toy dog]

Rescues come to this conclusion by keeping stats on how many registered breeders who are contacted when one of their dogs turn up are interested in taking their dogs back over those who are not. Most are not.

Some breeders take their dogs back if they get into trouble some dont - regardless of which group they belong to unless their code of conduct covers this [MDBA]

Of course there are some things some breeders do which make them less likely to have one of their dogs turn up in rescue but you cannot make statements about one group as if the other never does the same thing because people seeing what you are saying can CLEARLY see and find evidence to show that one member of any group may be doing what you accuse the other of. If you are going to use these things as a demonstration as to why one person should not breed dogs then your argument is automatically cancelled out when this is seen.

Puppy mills are breeding establishments run by people with little concern for the welfare of their puppies or their breeding dogs. Purely and simply they are criminals and should be reported and prosecuted - regardless of whether they breed cross bred or registered purebred dogs. People who are applying for DA'S are saying they will do what they do with regard to the welfare of the dogs. They will comply with laws and mandatory codes and know they will be watched and inspected.

This is the goal isnt it?

Apart from the obvious suffering to dogs these puppy mills cause, all dog breeders are tainted by their existence. Animal rights, and anti-breeding activists find kennels with filthy, squalid conditions, get the media interested, and use them for press releases, articles, and fund-raising campaigns against all dog breeders. These days even if someone applies they are beaten up and cheers go up when they dont get their application. Why on earth would anyone do that to themselves? Basically what we are saying to all breeders [registered and crossbred breeders] is - If you are going to own more than a couple of dogs you need to apply for a DA. then Stick your head out and apply and then you are exposed and we will do all we can to tell the world you are an animal abuser and do all we can to prevent you being able to breed dogs.So tell me does someone who wants to run a business in one shire and is knocked back simply never open that business or do they normally find somewhere else to operate ?.

By carrying on like this each time someone applies all it does is make sure people stop applying.

i do see your point. if they get knocked back in one shire they go to the shire who has accepted more farms than any other shire in Victoria - they are making a squillon on dog reg fees and permits, i heard conflicting reports of some farms not approved while others have said they haven't knocked back any, i don't know what is the truth. another recently got raided again and the owner came out and said they are different to other farms yet undercover people have seen how the dogs are treated but this farm is inspected. workers on the farm have come out and said how the dogs are treated and its not pretty what the owners get up to behind closed doors.

as i said before it really is up to the public to stop the supply by not buying a puppy farm dog or a petshop puppy. it constantly amazes me how they can sell all these pups from their farms and through other sources like shops and newspaper adverts, don't the buyers read up.it also amazes me how these days we have so much information at our finger tips re: the internet yet still people still buy from these sources

500,000, or half a million, puppies are estimated to be sold in pet shops each year. The idea that there aren't loving families looking for pets (overpopulation), is blown out of the water, when you consider that there is a constant stream of homes available to these pets. Even in the face of high pet shop prices ($400 – $1,500).

really there is no dispute about the fact that puppies can have good homes but the focus is more on where those puppies have come from, supporting a petshop or buying online from a large farm fuels this industry. i always buy my supplies from a petshop that doesn't sell puppies or one that supports shelters dogs like petbarn in Melbourne here. Petstock is another one i support as they promote rescue groups as well.

People buy puppies from mass produced farms and from pet shops because there isnt anywhere else to buy them. We are a dying race and dont go even a quarter of the way of breeding enough puppies to fill the demand.We are controlling and demanding of those who want our puppies. If you want a puppy and dont want to jump through breeder hoops and cant find one anywhere else you take the risk rather than not have a puppy at all.

thats really not true, if a person looks they will find plenty of ethical reg breeders on this site for instance! Not ALL registered breeders put impossible restrictions on buyers.

i don't put impossible restrictions on pets and i know of alot of other reg breeders who do the same. as i write in my articles on my website that i've had up for the last 14 years, buyers have the right to screen breeders and vice versa to ensure that the pups are going to good homes. some people welcome breeders concerns and prefer it that way.

really if they go to a breeder that doesn't ask vital questions to ensure the welfare of the puppy and just sell to anyone they are the breeders that are more than likely to not back up the sale at the end of the day. many a time i've had to help people who have bought pups from breeders that don't care and will not/do not give after sales service.

its really buyer beware isn't it.

[toy dog]

just having a big think about what you've been saying to me and why all the negativity about our controlling bodies and registered breeders? VCA are trying their best and trying to give what the majority of members want to see, its hard to please everyone, how many members have we got, 20,000 in this state?

We aren't a dying breed if we have ethical dedicated breeders that are here for the long haul, don't you agree? as i say in my own breed, we really work hard to foster the newies and help them. there's alot of other breed clubs like this in Victoria too we aren't the only ones. As a result there are many new people breeding dedicated to our breed up and coming. the oldies have an input into that.

we aren't too worried about if our breed is popular or not, there is always people who want a pedigree dog over a cross breed and we are never worried about competition. what im concerned about is the welfare of those dogs on the farms and how cruel that industry is. I always fight to bring an end to factory farming of a companion animals and i hope i see the day when all this comes to an end.

i just read about the "gardener" coming back again and spouting off about puppy farms and petshops and how good they are and how bad registered ANKC breeders in the kennel clubs are. He is up to his old tricks and it looks like he can't be shut up he is going to bag all "kennel club" breeders radio interview i believe this is the person who started all this crap in the first place and the ones that have suffered the most through his promotions has been the dogs themselves not the kennel club members as he puts it.

if you paint a negative picture for all to follow pretty soon we are all on a downward sprawl, we need to be more positive and it reflects and has an impact i've been victim to this a few pointed this out, so i refrained and it really has worked for us into the future. The club has gone from strength to strength because of a few dedicated breeders. We are here and we are not going anywhere!

media has a way of focussing on the negatives too. but really the public should make their own minds up about the truth, people these days are easily led by media when we all know it should all be taken with a grain of salt. the people who report are not as experienced as the people who has a lifestyle and hobby of dogs.

[Ellie]

The ANKC requires the breeding of inbred dogs with health problems - if I dont want to breed a cripple, I will not breed an registered ANKC puppy of that breed. How is breeding ANKC registered dogs of this breed a good thing?

What breed are you talking here lilli?

[BJean]

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do? out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

omg so much emotive hyperbole where to start

http://www.savingpets.com.au/2010/06/overpopulation-disguises-the-true-cause-of-shelter-killing/

i assure you it isn't "hyperbole" what ever that means, i assume it means emotional crap. we have lived in an area for over 25 years our family dealing with these people i talk off and have had first hand experience with a few and i know what their opinion is.

The above paragraph isn't about their opinion.

We have the proposed question:

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do?

and its given answer:

out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

Perhaps you can explain the cause and effect you are trying to demonstrate?

Are you saying that dogs end up in shelters because there are too many being bred -

That dogs are euthd in shelters because breeding farms cause excess supply of puppies, which results in the dogs' value in society decreasing, hence they are discarded with no care by their owners, with many getting euthd because breeding farms keep churning out puppies which take up all the available homes???

if you question a puppy farmer on what their policy is with taking back what they bred, the answer is usually, we have no responsibility once the pups leaves our premises. this is why our shelters are full because no one takes the responsibility. is breeding dogs on their property like livestock their own business, when we see the product of this overbreeding in shelters and then they compare us to these money hungry intense breeding operations?

I hope you are not on the DogsVic advisory committee ... so much misinformation!

so explain to me what the misinformation is then? and by whose standards is it misinfo. the article you refer to is just one opinion im going on having first hand experience with these kinds of people.

overbreeding in this context refers to the end product ie the numbers of dogs in shelters. What would be relevant, is if you had first hand experience with the owners who no longer want their dogs.

The RSPCA's own figures and the Centre For Companion Animals in the Community

are the data standards that says your overpopulation assertion is misinformation.

http://www.ccac.net.au/issues/Population_control

you mean to say that if a farmer churns out 2000 pups a year and does not actively take back any pups bred that the puppy owner does not want anymore its physically impossible to track that many puppies in homes and make sure they stay in good homes, this somehow doesn't add to the numbers wanting homes in shelters? it is common sense.

What do you believe is the main driver of dogs in shelters?

puppy farms should be outlawed and the only way a person can buy a puppy is from a registered breeder who is regulated not a farm.

How many litters per year does a good registered breeder have?

What is a registered breeder? The ANKC requires the breeding of inbred dogs with health problems - if I dont want to breed a cripple, I will not breed an registered ANKC puppy of that breed. How is breeding ANKC registered dogs of this breed a good thing?

im not going to get into the positives and negatives of a pedigree dog and what a registered breeder is, we all know what we are referring to im sure, how does inbreeding get into it.

Inbreeding comes into it because according to you, the only source of puppies should be registered breeders.

A home that wants a puppy of the breed I am referring to would be well advised to steer clear of registered dogs of this breed because of the issues outlined above. The breed is in its current state due to ANKC Rules and Regulations.

Why should a member of the public only have access to ANKC registered dogs of this breed, when a healthier individual can only be bred out of ANKC Registered Breeder provisions.

Edited June 5, 2011 by lilli

[toy dog]

The above paragraph isn't about their opinion. We have the proposed question:

is churning out cross breed pups and sometimes poor quality purebreeds what they are supposed to do?

and its given answer:

out in the open or behind closed doors is one and the same when we look at over crowding in shelters of poor defenseless animals. there are way too many puppies been bred for profit as it is that are put down every day steve, their only crime is being brought into this world and discarded like a product.

Perhaps you can explain the cause and effect you are trying to demonstrate?

Are you saying that dogs end up in shelters because there are too many being bred -

That dogs are euthd in shelters because breeding farms cause excess supply of puppies, which results in the dogs' value in society decreasing, hence they are discarded with no care by their owners, with many getting euthd because breeding farms keep churning out puppies which take up all the available homes???

no lilli that is not what i am saying at all, you are twisting it. what i am saying is that we have enough wanting homes in shelters and rescues without adding to it by puppies being bred in large puppy farms. It would help the situation we are all facedwith in shelters by the public being encouraged to adopt a dog from there instead of going to a breeder, i always promote rescues and shelters first before reg breeders. We don't need more dogs in society. thats what i am saying. i never said the other statements you added on yourself.

I hope you are not on the DogsVic advisory committee ... so much misinformation!

so explain to me what the misinformation is then? and by whose standards is it misinfo. the article you refer to is just one opinion im going on having first hand experience with these kinds of people.

overbreeding in this context refers to the end product ie the numbers of dogs in shelters. What would be relevant, is if you had first hand experience with the owners who no longer want their dogs.

The RSPCA's own figures and the Centre For Companion Animals in the Community

are the data standards that says your overpopulation assertion is misinformation.

http://www.ccac.net.au/issues/Population_control

i don't really want to get into the symantics of why dogs are surrended and shelters i appreciate the link and i will look at that, the main point i am trying to make is we don't need puppy farms and how society is wising up to this fact which is good in my opinion and a step forward. i did say before if breeders and that includes the public too, took responsiblity then we wouldn't have so many dogs needing homes in shelters.

What do you believe is the main driver of dogs in shelters?

im sorry but i don't want to answer that im not going to say my opinion and then be shot down in flames about it, i believe what i believe through what i have seen over the last 30 years with my family, coming into contact with farmers and talking to backyarders who breed for profit (people at my work) also have in the past worked for shelters and also involved in rescue not majorly but enough to be able to learn. Perhaps we need to open up a whole different subject. i was reading an article by shel who belongs to petrescue, who has written a wonderful peice on factory farmed puppies and i used her article with permission on my website a few times as i think what she wrote was brilliant. She explained why shelters are killing dogs when we could have no kill shelters and they use the excuse of overpopulation to kill even more animals. now they are trying to pass a bill in govt which will make it more difficult for foster and also rescue groups to save animals. I don't know what happened and whether it was passed through. Apparently they tried to get the same law passed a few years ago and it was shelved because of the public outcry so they try again with a similar bill. Not my own personal opinion but interesting reading.

Inbreeding comes into it because according to you, the only source of puppies should be registered breeders.

A home that wants a puppy of the breed I am referring to would be well advised to steer clear of registered dogs of this breed because of the issues outlined above. The breed is in its current state due to ANKC Rules and Regulations.

Why should a member of the public only have access to ANKC registered dogs of this breed, when a healthier individual can only be bred out of ANKC Registered Breeder provisions.

what breed are we talking about lilli will you enlighten us?? from your avatar it looks like a rare breed??? there are at least 200 pedigree breeds out there, not all of them are inbred and require to be inbred. The breeds i have dealt with, mainly toy breeds have enough stock out there to not inbreed or even line breed if the breeder so chooses. of course all breeds are in danger of using the most popular stud that wins at all the shows and sometimes the bloodlines can get a bit close. what i've witnessed anyway. In our breed in the late 70's early 80's there were over 1000 registrations in a given year, today that has almost halved. So we don't have a problem.

was also reading up about Fiona the dalmation from the US, who is now in crufts dog shows and LUA??? dalmation and how the americans have tried for 40 years to get these dogs recognised as purebreds. UK has recognised them but USA still refuse. she apparently according to the blog i was reading where breeders were explaining the ins and outs, has a pointer in her bloodline 5-7 times, but its going back 12 generations. This had to be done because Dalmations over in USA and also England don't know whether its the same here in this country, were suffering from a condition and all were infected so they had to bring in a dog from another breed to clear it. Some breeders that support the LUA dalmation are claiming that these selectively bred Dalmations are like the real thing and are sometimes better than the real thing. Interesting reading that too. I came across this subject from readingthe other thread on pedigree dogs exposed the sequel and just wondered what she was going on about.