Selling Dogs

[laeral]

Yes KOE it is Mica I was talking about. I didn't know much about the effects of early desexing and went on my vets advice. She did end up quite tall (quite a bit above standard) but I don't know if that was a cause of early desexing or not.

[jr_inoz]

I have a question I would love answered as it was presented to me yesterday.

We are puppy inquiring at the moment and my dream breed was available in my local area and there is only one pup available being a male and ONLY available on breeders terms/Co-ownership as the father had passed and they are retaining the other male and want this boy as a backup just in case.

I was offered their 'pet price' of $2,300 however it is breeders terms and co-ownership and we have to sign a contract and the dog must stay intact and we must pay for all the health testing needing to ensure the dog is healthy if they choose to breed with him.

We are happy to do breeders terms & co-ownership however we felt it was a little unfair to be governed by them only to be sold the pup at their FULL pet price yet we have to stick to their very strict rules. I would think if you are offering this you would offer the pup at a reduced price as you are still getting the benefits from the dog yet the other pet puppies are being sold at the same price and they can choose the dogs path.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

Sounds like "wanting their cake and eating it too" kind of arrangement.

I co-owned a bitch with her breeder and was very happy with the arrangement. The dog lived with me, I paid for her normal upkeep (food, vet bills etc) we shared the costs associated with her breeding (health checks, vet bills with breeding) etc. We would also share the money from the sale of any puppies. She came to me for free.

I knew the breeder though.

Plus side for me? A lovely, show quality bitch that did not cost me anything to buy.

Plus for the breeder? Keeping options open on a bitch they couldn't keep in their kennels.

I wouldn't touch the above arrangement with a 10 foot pole. Sounds like a very selfish breeder.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

I have only done it once but yes I did charge full pet price but I would have paid for the health testing and they would have been paid a stud fee. Reduced if it was over my own dogs but full prcie for any others.

Thank you Cowanbree. This we would have been fine with however we were responsible for all health testing and their was no stud fee for us at all and if we were to allow the dog to be breed with another pure breed dog then they requested the full stud fee from this. Not that we would ever offer a dog on stud because it is of zero interest to us.

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle.

The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy.

They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

Was going to say this. Merle x merle in my breed not allowed. Dogs can be born blind or deaf or both - and very very high chance of this happening.

Merle x merle Australian Shepherds can be registered on main. In fact I have one here....main registered (neutered) bitch from a blue merle to blue merle mating.

Gayle - are their the same health issues with merle x merle matings as there are in other breeds? Causing hearing and sight problems?

[wuffles]

Ironically, merle x merle is allowed in Aussies, yet the standard is quite strict regarding the amount of white.

[Gayle.]

I have a question I would love answered as it was presented to me yesterday.

We are puppy inquiring at the moment and my dream breed was available in my local area and there is only one pup available being a male and ONLY available on breeders terms/Co-ownership as the father had passed and they are retaining the other male and want this boy as a backup just in case.

I was offered their 'pet price' of $2,300 however it is breeders terms and co-ownership and we have to sign a contract and the dog must stay intact and we must pay for all the health testing needing to ensure the dog is healthy if they choose to breed with him.

We are happy to do breeders terms & co-ownership however we felt it was a little unfair to be governed by them only to be sold the pup at their FULL pet price yet we have to stick to their very strict rules. I would think if you are offering this you would offer the pup at a reduced price as you are still getting the benefits from the dog yet the other pet puppies are being sold at the same price and they can choose the dogs path.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

Sounds like "wanting their cake and eating it too" kind of arrangement.

I co-owned a bitch with her breeder and was very happy with the arrangement. The dog lived with me, I paid for her normal upkeep (food, vet bills etc) we shared the costs associated with her breeding (health checks, vet bills with breeding) etc. We would also share the money from the sale of any puppies. She came to me for free.

I knew the breeder though.

Plus side for me? A lovely, show quality bitch that did not cost me anything to buy.

Plus for the breeder? Keeping options open on a bitch they couldn't keep in their kennels.

I wouldn't touch the above arrangement with a 10 foot pole. Sounds like a very selfish breeder.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

I have only done it once but yes I did charge full pet price but I would have paid for the health testing and they would have been paid a stud fee. Reduced if it was over my own dogs but full prcie for any others.

Thank you Cowanbree. This we would have been fine with however we were responsible for all health testing and their was no stud fee for us at all and if we were to allow the dog to be breed with another pure breed dog then they requested the full stud fee from this. Not that we would ever offer a dog on stud because it is of zero interest to us.

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle.

The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy.

They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

Was going to say this. Merle x merle in my breed not allowed. Dogs can be born blind or deaf or both - and very very high chance of this happening.

Merle x merle Australian Shepherds can be registered on main. In fact I have one here....main registered (neutered) bitch from a blue merle to blue merle mating.

Gayle - are their the same health issues with merle x merle matings as there are in other breeds? Causing hearing and sight problems?

Yes, I would imagine it's exactly the same gene as in Border Collies. And causes the same problems. It's not done often, but it IS done and the pups are allowed to be registered as per any other mating. My merle x merle girl has a colomboma in one eye and iris hypoplasia in the other. Neither affects her sight at all, but the lack of an iris affects the light control and she squints in sunlight. I have done some research on iris hypoplasia and as far as I can tell, she carries the double merle gene and that is a direct result of it.

[espinay2]

Actually saying that owners cause dogs to be fat post desexing isn't really the whole story. Ovaries produce estrogen, and if you take that away from a mammal the body looks for other places to get needed estrogen from. Fat cells can produce estrogen, so when the estrogen goes the body works harder to convert calories into fat to increase estrogen levels. Fat cells don't burn calories the way muscle cells do, which causes the weight gain

Testosterone helps the body to create lean muscle mass out of the calories that are taken in. Muscle cells burn more calories than fat cells do, increasing the metabolism. When levels of testosterone drop it results in the loss of this muscle. This means a lower metabolism. The lower the metabolism is, the slower the body burns calories, which causes weight gain.

If you start to lower the food intake when you notice a bit of weight gain then the body can go into "famine effect" and these stress hormones signal the body to hang onto all the food that comes in – in case the body doesn't get enough food for a long time so it starts to store calories.

Fact is an extra weight gain may even lessen the results of these hormones not being present and help to protect against bone diseases, incontinence etc so don't be too hard on yourself if your dogs put on a bit of extra weight when they are desexed. You don't want fat dogs but it might be in their best interests to have them a bit meatier post op that they were pre op.

If these hormones decrease naturally the body prepares for it and the results are not as obvious but when they are taken away in a young animal there is definitely stuff going on inside the dog which the owners have no idea of.

In addition to the effect of hormones is that in a lot of cases the desexing is being performed at a time when growth is slowing and requirements to support that growth are less. If owners are not adjusting intake, the extra calories can lead to extra padding. That it happens around the time the dog is desexed can therefore be also partly 'coincidence' to some extent as owners see desexing as the milestone rather than the growth stage the dog is at.

[Kia]

I have a question I would love answered as it was presented to me yesterday.

We are puppy inquiring at the moment and my dream breed was available in my local area and there is only one pup available being a male and ONLY available on breeders terms/Co-ownership as the father had passed and they are retaining the other male and want this boy as a backup just in case.

I was offered their 'pet price' of $2,300 however it is breeders terms and co-ownership and we have to sign a contract and the dog must stay intact and we must pay for all the health testing needing to ensure the dog is healthy if they choose to breed with him.

We are happy to do breeders terms & co-ownership however we felt it was a little unfair to be governed by them only to be sold the pup at their FULL pet price yet we have to stick to their very strict rules. I would think if you are offering this you would offer the pup at a reduced price as you are still getting the benefits from the dog yet the other pet puppies are being sold at the same price and they can choose the dogs path.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

Sounds like "wanting their cake and eating it too" kind of arrangement.

I co-owned a bitch with her breeder and was very happy with the arrangement. The dog lived with me, I paid for her normal upkeep (food, vet bills etc) we shared the costs associated with her breeding (health checks, vet bills with breeding) etc. We would also share the money from the sale of any puppies. She came to me for free.

I knew the breeder though.

Plus side for me? A lovely, show quality bitch that did not cost me anything to buy.

Plus for the breeder? Keeping options open on a bitch they couldn't keep in their kennels.

I wouldn't touch the above arrangement with a 10 foot pole. Sounds like a very selfish breeder.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

I have only done it once but yes I did charge full pet price but I would have paid for the health testing and they would have been paid a stud fee. Reduced if it was over my own dogs but full prcie for any others.

Thank you Cowanbree. This we would have been fine with however we were responsible for all health testing and their was no stud fee for us at all and if we were to allow the dog to be breed with another pure breed dog then they requested the full stud fee from this. Not that we would ever offer a dog on stud because it is of zero interest to us.

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle.

The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy.

They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

Was going to say this. Merle x merle in my breed not allowed. Dogs can be born blind or deaf or both - and very very high chance of this happening.

Merle x merle Australian Shepherds can be registered on main. In fact I have one here....main registered (neutered) bitch from a blue merle to blue merle mating.

Gayle - are their the same health issues with merle x merle matings as there are in other breeds? Causing hearing and sight problems?

Yes, I would imagine it's exactly the same gene as in Border Collies. And causes the same problems. It's not done often, but it IS done and the pups are allowed to be registered as per any other mating. My merle x merle girl has a colomboma in one eye and iris hypoplasia in the other. Neither affects her sight at all, but the lack of an iris affects the light control and she squints in sunlight. I have done some research on iris hypoplasia and as far as I can tell, she carries the double merle gene and that is a direct result of it.

Not sure how the gene works in BC but not all merle x merle crosses in aussies produce double merle pups as you can often get solids in those litters. The merle gene is dominant in aussies but quite often a litter of merle x solid will produce mostly solid pups. I have a dog from a double merle mating who doesn't carry a huge amount of white, is a minimal merle and has produced solid pups in a litter. He had no eye issues at his last eye screen and has been DNA'd.

Some of the eye issues seen in aussies are due to CEA which DNA testing is helping to eradicate. And some that are unrelated to either CEA or the merle x merle crosses.

[Kia]

I should also add that hearing is associated with the amount of pigment in the ear.

The amount of white present on the head doesn't always mean they will or won't have full hearing.