Selling Dogs

[Steve]

Limited register came in for NSW around 1996 - maybe a year or two either side. The whole contract thing has developed more slowly and much of that is due to changing social factors .Breeders have been pressured to breed less and local councils restrict numbers more anyway .The contract issues go hand in hand with the "Im only supposed to have a litter a year " because they are breeding so few they have to control what they want to breed with even though they cant live with it . 70% of only 4800 registered breeders Australia wide in 2010 only had one litter.

[Steve]

Actually now you mention it the numbers mucs have dropped even more than they show in the ANKC stats because back in 1986 it wasnt compulsory to register all pups - so when you see that GSD in 1986 was 13562 it had to have been much bigger - very scary when you see 2010 figures dropped to 3900 and thats when we have to register every puppy !

Edited June 6, 2011 by Steve

[**Super_Dogs**]

I sell my puppies on Main register. I do this as I would not buy a puppy with any restrictions.

I personally am confused about Limited Register. From what I read it is because the breeder does not want the new owner to breed with the dog.

I think we need to be realistic - if the owner wants to breed with the dog they are going to do so whether the dog is on main or limited register. I am sure you have all seen the puppies for sale on other websites as “pure breed”.

My theory is if the dog is on main register the owner at least has the option to do it properly and they will therefore conduct all the required health tests. If they are on limited register and they cannot sell the puppies registered why would they bother doing the health tests!!

[Fatsofatsoman]

I may be an idiot (well plenty would say there's no maybe about it) but I'm really staggered that out of litters of 6 to 8 pups only 1 or 2 are considered bettering the breed. Therefore nature is pretty poor at this natural selection business - considering these pups are coming from prime parents. Or are the human decided standards put on breeds too harsh.

I'm quite new to reading up on breeds and the show side of it but I would have thought a dog that is able to do the job that the breed was bred for should be looked upon highly rather than one that looks like a set of stats produced by us and that might not be able to retrieve for toffee.

just my two cents - I'll take a healthy happy Lab that can retrive and do all he's breed is meant to do whether his tail is otter like enough or not all day long.

[Rebanne]

just my two cents - I'll take a healthy happy Lab that can retrive and do all he's breed is meant to do whether his tail is otter like enough or not all day long.

but if his tail is not up to the standard, can he work all day long? I know little about Labs but isn't retrieving from water a big part of the job? And if the tail is not up to scratch could it not impact on the dogs working ability?

[The Spotted Devil]

just my two cents - I'll take a healthy happy Lab that can retrive and do all he's breed is meant to do whether his tail is otter like enough or not all day long.

but if his tail is not up to the standard, can he work all day long? I know little about Labs but isn't retrieving from water a big part of the job? And if the tail is not up to scratch could it not impact on the dogs working ability?

That's something I won't pretend to understand. Some of the best working Labs I've had the pleasure of seeing in retrieving trials certainly don't have an otter tail and it doesn't impact their working ability at all.

[dasha]

Personally I would not buy a dog that has conditions or contracts. I buy the dog........... it is mine.

Same when I sell my pups. I will vet the homes as best I can but once they buy the pup, it is theirs. I will be happy to hear how they go or offer to take back if it doesn't work out.

I think if the dog meets the requirements of the breed or performs the function it was bred to do, then what right to I have to sell a dog and say no-one else can breed but I can.

If the dog is a poor specimen for whatever reason then desexing it and placing in a pet home would be the best thing.

That is just my opinion.

Edited June 6, 2011 by dasha

[RuralPug]

If the dog is a poor specimen for whatever reason then desexing it and placing in a pet home would be the best thing.

Agreed.

However that only works when you can clearly see at 10 weeks that the puppy is a poor specimen. In real life, many are potentially good specimens but may grow into poor specimens that shouldn't be bred from and you can't be sure until they are 12 months, or 15 months or 18 months or 3 years old.

Puppies on limit register can be transferred to mains register later with the breeder's approval. Puppies sold desexed do avoid the problem of a poor specimen being bred from, or even a good specimen being abused by a bad pf or byb.

I don't know how many people I've heard of who have bought a dog as a pet with no intention of breeding, but then have been swayed by an in-law or neighbour saying gee what a handsome dog you should breed it you would make a fortune... that is the problem that many breeders, especially in the "fashionable" breeds, face. And then they could easily end up selling, innocently, to puppy farmers. At least limit register means that you are not condoning that sort of irresponsible breeding.

When you feel responsible for the puppies you bring into this world it is damn hard to let dogs go out on mains register.

[Mystiqview]

I forget how many times I see on Petlink and similar websites "Parents Registered CCC".... A discreet email to the person finds the animals are on Limit..

No matter where you go... someone is going to do the wrong thing.. Short of desexing prior to going at 8-12 weeks.. it is a risk a breeder takes.

At least with Limit.. they cannot register any resulting puppies. One the flipside.. if the dog DOES grow into a good specimen, and the puppy owners are serious about doing it RIGHT.. it can be upgraded to Main.

[RubyStar]

Is there a time limit to being able to transfer a dog from Limited to Mains? I thought it was 2 years or something, but would love for that to be clarified.

[benshiva]

After being burnt very badly on two separate occasions by people who I thought I could trust enough to sell a puppy on main register outright to, I will never do it again. I don't give a toss what people think of my decision to do this and they are welcome to look elsewhere for a puppy if my terms don't agree with them.

[dancinbcs]

I may be an idiot (well plenty would say there's no maybe about it) but I'm really staggered that out of litters of 6 to 8 pups only 1 or 2 are considered bettering the breed. Therefore nature is pretty poor at this natural selection business - considering these pups are coming from prime parents. Or are the human decided standards put on breeds too harsh.

I'm quite new to reading up on breeds and the show side of it but I would have thought a dog that is able to do the job that the breed was bred for should be looked upon highly rather than one that looks like a set of stats produced by us and that might not be able to retrieve for toffee.

just my two cents - I'll take a healthy happy Lab that can retrive and do all he's breed is meant to do whether his tail is otter like enough or not all day long.

To improve the breed you only breed on with the best. In nature the strongest survive by natural selection. With domesticated dogs the breeders need to pick the puppies with the soundest conformation and temperament that would have been more likely to survive if left to nature. Dogs with poor structure break down faster and would be left behind by the pack. Nature never intended for all puppies to live to breeding age and there is usually a whole spectrum in each litter. These days minor structural problems pose no problem for a non breeding pet that doesn't need to hunt to survive but that doesn't mean that they should be bred from. In most litters there are one ot two stand out puppies and these are the ones that should carry on the lines. Some litters are all crap so the pick of litter may not be as good as either parent. In that case none should be bred from. Occasionally a litter, often tightly line bred, will produce several really good and even quality puppies but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Puppies with structural faults as well as breed faults should be limit registered to prevent them contributing faulty genes to the breed's future gene pool. Puppies worthy of being on main register should be on main register, even if it means selling them in partnership to prevent them being onsold to dealers and puppy farms. The problem is a lot of people breeding, even if they show, have no idea what constitutes a soundly constructed puppy. I have had breeders say they have no idea about conformation. If they don't know the basics they should not be breeding, but they do.

[SwaY]

I would not buy a puppy on terms/co-owned.

BUT being Hypercritical, my puppies on main register are co-owned and are given away not sold.

[Fatsofatsoman]

To improve the breed you only breed on with the best. In nature the strongest survive by natural selection. With domesticated dogs the breeders need to pick the puppies with the soundest conformation and temperament that would have been more likely to survive if left to nature. Dogs with poor structure break down faster and would be left behind by the pack. Nature never intended for all puppies to live to breeding age and there is usually a whole spectrum in each litter. These days minor structural problems pose no problem for a non breeding pet that doesn't need to hunt to survive but that doesn't mean that they should be bred from. In most litters there are one ot two stand out puppies and these are the ones that should carry on the lines. Some litters are all crap so the pick of litter may not be as good as either parent. In that case none should be bred from. Occasionally a litter, often tightly line bred, will produce several really good and even quality puppies but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Puppies with structural faults as well as breed faults should be limit registered to prevent them contributing faulty genes to the breed's future gene pool. Puppies worthy of being on main register should be on main register, even if it means selling them in partnership to prevent them being onsold to dealers and puppy farms. The problem is a lot of people breeding, even if they show, have no idea what constitutes a soundly constructed puppy. I have had breeders say they have no idea about conformation. If they don't know the basics they should not be breeding, but they do.

I understand the concept - the part that doesn't sit well with me is that we as humans are doing the natural selection thing, we decide what is the best conformation not nature - who's to say we haven't ballsed up and the standard really isn't the best the dog could be. I hear all the time of standard changes and of breeds no longer representing what they should.

anything a human has a hand in producing is just as likely to backfire if you ask me.

My honest opinion is that some of the labs i've seen on the net that are meant to be show winners seem rather heavy boned/large set - I'm not sure how this would help a retrieving dog who needs to be fairly active. Again I'm a noob at it so could be completely wrong. Btw I have no interest in becoming a breeder I just find it a little sad we as humans decide which dogs are deemed 'worthy' of reproducing (exceptions for deformities and illnesses and the like - common sense).

Edited June 9, 2011 by Fatsofatsoman

[poodlefan]

My honest opinion is that some of the labs i've seen on the net that are meant to be show winners seem rather heavy boned/large set - I'm not sure how this would help a retrieving dog who needs to be fairly active. Again I'm a noob at it so could be completely wrong. Btw I have no interest in becoming a breeder I just find it a little sad we as humans decide which dogs are deemed 'worthy' of reproducing (exceptions for deformities and illnesses and the like - common sense).

Given that dogs are now domestic animals, I don't really see what realistic alternative exists. All you can do is try to make the most knowledgeable decision about that you can.

Nature's selection process for "best breeding animal" can be nasty brutish and short. We need to step up and admit to the fact that we've altered dogs in ways that mean they are no longer viable in the wild and then do our utmost to ensure that we don't breed any dog whose welfare is compromised by its features. There is an argument we've crossed that line and in some breeds I'm inclined to agree.

The reason why only one or two dogs in a litter might be considered "ideal breeding prospects" can be a combination of structure and type (although I find it hard to separate those). Whilst a litter may be nearly identical genetically, phenotype does vary and that's what you're working on.

By the way, your average show Lab is, IMO, carrying far too much weight. Slim them down and most look far more capable of doing what they were bred for. However as we know, there's more to a retriever than how it looks.

Edited June 9, 2011 by poodlefan

[sheena]

To improve the breed you only breed on with the best. In nature the strongest survive by natural selection. With domesticated dogs the breeders need to pick the puppies with the soundest conformation and temperament that would have been more likely to survive if left to nature. Dogs with poor structure break down faster and would be left behind by the pack. Nature never intended for all puppies to live to breeding age and there is usually a whole spectrum in each litter. These days minor structural problems pose no problem for a non breeding pet that doesn't need to hunt to survive but that doesn't mean that they should be bred from. In most litters there are one ot two stand out puppies and these are the ones that should carry on the lines. Some litters are all crap so the pick of litter may not be as good as either parent. In that case none should be bred from. Occasionally a litter, often tightly line bred, will produce several really good and even quality puppies but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Puppies with structural faults as well as breed faults should be limit registered to prevent them contributing faulty genes to the breed's future gene pool. Puppies worthy of being on main register should be on main register, even if it means selling them in partnership to prevent them being onsold to dealers and puppy farms. The problem is a lot of people breeding, even if they show, have no idea what constitutes a soundly constructed puppy. I have had breeders say they have no idea about conformation. If they don't know the basics they should not be breeding, but they do.

I understand the concept - the part that doesn't sit well with me is that we as humans are doing the natural selection thing, we decide what is the best conformation not nature - who's to say we haven't ballsed up and the standard really isn't the best the dog could be. I hear all the time of standard changes and of breeds no longer representing what they should.

anything a human has a hand in producing is just as likely to backfire if you ask me.

My honest opinion is that some of the labs i've seen on the net that are meant to be show winners seem rather heavy boned/large set - I'm not sure how this would help a retrieving dog who needs to be fairly active. Again I'm a noob at it so could be completely wrong. Btw I have no interest in becoming a breeder I just find it a little sad we as humans decide which dogs are deemed 'worthy' of reproducing (exceptions for deformities and illnesses and the like - common sense).

I agree with you. Dogs are being put on mains register & bred from, just because they have good confirmation etc in the show ring, but maybe those dogs have problems with giving birth naturally for example....a very important fact for natural survival. Also with my breed, Border Collies, certain colours are not accepted on the mains register anymore, or pricked ears, means you have no chance in the show ring, so what do these "faults" have to do with whether a dog is structurally sound & should or should not not be allowed on mains register???? Look what our years of selective breeding has done to the poor old King Charles Spaniel, or breeds with flat faces or GSD's that can't walk a straight line without wobbling on their back legs. I am not a breeder, just an observer from the sidelines.

[benshiva]

To improve the breed you only breed on with the best. In nature the strongest survive by natural selection. With domesticated dogs the breeders need to pick the puppies with the soundest conformation and temperament that would have been more likely to survive if left to nature. Dogs with poor structure break down faster and would be left behind by the pack. Nature never intended for all puppies to live to breeding age and there is usually a whole spectrum in each litter. These days minor structural problems pose no problem for a non breeding pet that doesn't need to hunt to survive but that doesn't mean that they should be bred from. In most litters there are one ot two stand out puppies and these are the ones that should carry on the lines. Some litters are all crap so the pick of litter may not be as good as either parent. In that case none should be bred from. Occasionally a litter, often tightly line bred, will produce several really good and even quality puppies but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Puppies with structural faults as well as breed faults should be limit registered to prevent them contributing faulty genes to the breed's future gene pool. Puppies worthy of being on main register should be on main register, even if it means selling them in partnership to prevent them being onsold to dealers and puppy farms. The problem is a lot of people breeding, even if they show, have no idea what constitutes a soundly constructed puppy. I have had breeders say they have no idea about conformation. If they don't know the basics they should not be breeding, but they do.

I understand the concept - the part that doesn't sit well with me is that we as humans are doing the natural selection thing, we decide what is the best conformation not nature - who's to say we haven't ballsed up and the standard really isn't the best the dog could be. I hear all the time of standard changes and of breeds no longer representing what they should.

anything a human has a hand in producing is just as likely to backfire if you ask me.

My honest opinion is that some of the labs i've seen on the net that are meant to be show winners seem rather heavy boned/large set - I'm not sure how this would help a retrieving dog who needs to be fairly active. Again I'm a noob at it so could be completely wrong. Btw I have no interest in becoming a breeder I just find it a little sad we as humans decide which dogs are deemed 'worthy' of reproducing (exceptions for deformities and illnesses and the like - common sense).

I agree with you. Dogs are being put on mains register & bred from, just because they have good confirmation etc in the show ring, but maybe those dogs have problems with giving birth naturally for example....a very important fact for natural survival. Also with my breed, Border Collies, certain colours are not accepted on the mains register anymore, or pricked ears, means you have no chance in the show ring, so what do these "faults" have to do with whether a dog is structurally sound & should or should not not be allowed on mains register???? Look what our years of selective breeding has done to the poor old King Charles Spaniel, or breeds with flat faces or GSD's that can't walk a straight line without wobbling on their back legs. I am not a breeder, just an observer from the sidelines.

I just have to clarify that I personally have had great success in the show ring with a few bitches that people would classify as having pricked ears. The latest being my darling Pink who is now in heaven. Pricked eared dogs are allowed to be listed on the main register and bred from. I know because I've done it. They aren't born with pricked ears and I've never seen an 8 week old puppy Border Collie with pricked ears so at the time of register they don't have them. It also wouldn't stop any breeder I know from using the dog in a breeding program.

[~*Shell*~]

Personally, I don't think I have the knowledge (not only of how to breed/raise a litter but also of the different lines) or the time to breed so I am happy to take a bitch/dog on main register with the idea of her/him going back to the breeder if they want a litter from her/him. I don't think I would do the breed justice so even if i did want to better the breed, I don't think I have the knowledge to.

I would have to trust the breeder completely though and have a good friendship with them on top of that. As it is, the right puppy/breeder hasn't come up yet.

[dancinbcs]

To improve the breed you only breed on with the best. In nature the strongest survive by natural selection. With domesticated dogs the breeders need to pick the puppies with the soundest conformation and temperament that would have been more likely to survive if left to nature. Dogs with poor structure break down faster and would be left behind by the pack. Nature never intended for all puppies to live to breeding age and there is usually a whole spectrum in each litter. These days minor structural problems pose no problem for a non breeding pet that doesn't need to hunt to survive but that doesn't mean that they should be bred from. In most litters there are one ot two stand out puppies and these are the ones that should carry on the lines. Some litters are all crap so the pick of litter may not be as good as either parent. In that case none should be bred from. Occasionally a litter, often tightly line bred, will produce several really good and even quality puppies but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Puppies with structural faults as well as breed faults should be limit registered to prevent them contributing faulty genes to the breed's future gene pool. Puppies worthy of being on main register should be on main register, even if it means selling them in partnership to prevent them being onsold to dealers and puppy farms. The problem is a lot of people breeding, even if they show, have no idea what constitutes a soundly constructed puppy. I have had breeders say they have no idea about conformation. If they don't know the basics they should not be breeding, but they do.

I understand the concept - the part that doesn't sit well with me is that we as humans are doing the natural selection thing, we decide what is the best conformation not nature - who's to say we haven't ballsed up and the standard really isn't the best the dog could be. I hear all the time of standard changes and of breeds no longer representing what they should.

anything a human has a hand in producing is just as likely to backfire if you ask me.

My honest opinion is that some of the labs i've seen on the net that are meant to be show winners seem rather heavy boned/large set - I'm not sure how this would help a retrieving dog who needs to be fairly active. Again I'm a noob at it so could be completely wrong. Btw I have no interest in becoming a breeder I just find it a little sad we as humans decide which dogs are deemed 'worthy' of reproducing (exceptions for deformities and illnesses and the like - common sense).

I agree with you. Dogs are being put on mains register & bred from, just because they have good confirmation etc in the show ring, but maybe those dogs have problems with giving birth naturally for example....a very important fact for natural survival. Also with my breed, Border Collies, certain colours are not accepted on the mains register anymore, or pricked ears, means you have no chance in the show ring, so what do these "faults" have to do with whether a dog is structurally sound & should or should not not be allowed on mains register???? Look what our years of selective breeding has done to the poor old King Charles Spaniel, or breeds with flat faces or GSD's that can't walk a straight line without wobbling on their back legs. I am not a breeder, just an observer from the sidelines.

When you register a puppy you have no idea if it will have trouble whelping or not so it is something that cannot be assessed at that age. The colour problem does not only apply to BCs. It is because of a rule the ANKC brought in about 10 years ago and applies to all breeds. A lot of colours that are genetically possible have been overlooked in standards because the standards were written at a time when no one understood genetics and they have never been fixed. The BC breeders did not ask for colours to be restricted.

Cosmetic points like colour, markings or ear carriage have no bearing on a dog's stucture. They may be considered as faults for the showring but would not be important when assessing breeding stock. Structure, soundness, temperament and health are what should decide if a dog is on main or limit register.

[Parkeyre]

Cosmetic points like colour, markings or ear carriage have no bearing on a dog's stucture. They may be considered as faults for the showring but would not be important when assessing breeding stock. Structure, soundness, temperament and health are what should decide if a dog is on main or limit register.