Selling Dogs

[PetSitters]

I can imagine some breeds could potentially create problems with pups sold on mains and left entire, but having said that, I have a working line GSD entire on mains, and there is very little chance a working line breeder would stud my dog without health testing and proof of working ability even offered without a stud fee to do a registered breeding. I also wouldn't stud my dog if he met breeding criteria to any bitch unless the bitch also met health standards and had something to offer the breed. I think also asking the right questions of a potential buyer can provide a good indication of their intentions, but I have also been interviewed by breeders who I felt treated me as a potential crook with imposing restrictions and really didn't want to deal with them and walked away myself by preference.

Funnily with the GSD's I found, the most restrictive breeders had dogs of the least proven lines in show and work from my experiences for some reason and were ultra protective of a line that hadn't achieved anything

[juice]

Good rescue's desex all their pups before they go out, i have had many very young pups done, plus we homecheck new owners, amazing what you find out when you actually visit their place. ;)

I have a BT from a breeder, she was used to breed from twice, but desexed before i got her, so the line could not be used, i have no problem with that at all, in fact i was happy it was all done.

[Steve]

I believe that if we truly do have the integrity of the breed at heart that we would allow our dogs to go out without restriction for breeding to those who want a breeding dog.

I believe that id someone says they may want to breed even if they dont want to show that they should be sold a dog outright which the breeder considers will do no harm to the breed.

We have limited the gene pools by our controlling methods to a point where some breeds are in real danger and while that may make the breeder feel they can control what is going on in my opinion its placed in a position we didnt need to be in.

There are 33000 members of the ANKC and of them Australia wide only 4 and a half thousand are breeders - we are a dying race. Not much point in having a great "line" if it dies out when you do.

[Christina]

There is no way to protect the dog from being unsuitably bred, put out to stud or over bred.

There is only a way to ensure that the pups aren't registered, which may protect your name & line but not the welfare of the dog.

Once a dog leaves you entire it can be bred regardless of its registration. I know some great show lines that are being bred & all pups sent overseas. The agent does not care about their registration. Sights the pedigree here & is satisfied.

I desex my toy breed before they leave me. I would not breed a larger breed that is not as suited to the early desexing. Super sensitive to anything horrid I know I would have nightmares & be racked with guilt if they ended up in a bad breeding situation. Not trusting to strangers by nature either. If I let one go for breeding to someone I trusted my condition would be that if the dog does not turn out suitable it must be desexed before being re homed or returned to me. Not much else you can do really & even that can't be enforced if it came to the crunch.

[oakway]

I believe that if we truly do have the integrity of the breed at heart that we would allow our dogs to go out without restriction for breeding to those who want a breeding dog.

I believe that id someone says they may want to breed even if they dont want to show that they should be sold a dog outright which the breeder considers will do no harm to the breed.

We have limited the gene pools by our controlling methods to a point where some breeds are in real danger and while that may make the breeder feel they can control what is going on in my opinion its placed in a position we didnt need to be in.

There are 33000 members of the ANKC and of them Australia wide only 4 and a half thousand are breeders - we are a dying race. Not much point in having a great "line" if it dies out when you do.

I agree with what you say, but most start off all honorable and then, the dollar signs start to become more important.

I find it unusual to get an inquiry for, Show or Breeding stock these days.

When I sell a pet it is de sexed I don't need contracts end of story.

Even when sold to other breeders, if they decide they don't want it, they to can do the wrong thing and sell on as a pet not de sexed.

I believe what is in the back of our minds is that we are doing what we do to stop any puppy farmer or Byb getting hold of any pure bred stock.

Yes we can sit and discuss this for hours and still not come out with suitable outcome.

Maybe it is a sign of the times but the average citizen appears not to want to show dogs. Which could open up a whole new topic.

Edited June 3, 2011 by oakway

[PetSitters]

Isn't there science determining that desexing at 8 weeks or younger is detrimental to the pup's growth and development?

[Steve]

I believe that if we truly do have the integrity of the breed at heart that we would allow our dogs to go out without restriction for breeding to those who want a breeding dog.

I believe that id someone says they may want to breed even if they dont want to show that they should be sold a dog outright which the breeder considers will do no harm to the breed.

We have limited the gene pools by our controlling methods to a point where some breeds are in real danger and while that may make the breeder feel they can control what is going on in my opinion its placed in a position we didnt need to be in.

There are 33000 members of the ANKC and of them Australia wide only 4 and a half thousand are breeders - we are a dying race. Not much point in having a great "line" if it dies out when you do.

I agree with what you say, but most start off all honorable and then, the dollar signs start to become more important.

I find it unusual to get an inquiry for, Show or Breeding stock these days.

When I sell a pet it is de sexed I don't need contracts end of story.

Even when sold to other breeders, if they decide they don't want it, they to can do the wrong thing and sell on as a pet not de sexed.

I believe what is in the back of our minds is that we are doing what we do to stop any puppy farmer or Byb getting hold of any pure bred stock.

Yes we can sit and discuss this for hours and still not come out with suitable outcome.

Maybe it is a sign of the times but the average citizen appears not to want to show dogs. Which could open up a whole new topic.

Thats why I advise them to do the intro to breeding course but even if they do end up where the dollar becomes more important isnt it better for everyone if they are breeding with dogs which wont do any harm to the breed?

Edited June 3, 2011 by Steve

[Christina]

Isn't there science determining that desexing at 8 weeks or younger is detrimental to the pup's growth and development?

There are studies & statistics that can make early desexing, later desexing, no desexing & anything look detrimental in some form.

There has not been enough early desexing to obtain reliable data over time, 10 years ago or even later it was rarely done.

Many statistics that have proven things & been known to be inaccurate in later years.

The post question is about selling entire dogs & what happens then. Early desexing is a breeders choice & may be the lesser of two evils.

[oakway]

I believe that if we truly do have the integrity of the breed at heart that we would allow our dogs to go out without restriction for breeding to those who want a breeding dog.

I believe that id someone says they may want to breed even if they dont want to show that they should be sold a dog outright which the breeder considers will do no harm to the breed.

We have limited the gene pools by our controlling methods to a point where some breeds are in real danger and while that may make the breeder feel they can control what is going on in my opinion its placed in a position we didnt need to be in.

There are 33000 members of the ANKC and of them Australia wide only 4 and a half thousand are breeders - we are a dying race. Not much point in having a great "line" if it dies out when you do.

I agree with what you say, but most start off all honorable and then, the dollar signs start to become more important.

I find it unusual to get an inquiry for, Show or Breeding stock these days.

When I sell a pet it is de sexed I don't need contracts end of story.

Even when sold to other breeders, if they decide they don't want it, they to can do the wrong thing and sell on as a pet not de sexed.

I believe what is in the back of our minds is that we are doing what we do to stop any puppy farmer or Byb getting hold of any pure bred stock.

Yes we can sit and discuss this for hours and still not come out with suitable outcome.

Maybe it is a sign of the times but the average citizen appears not to want to show dogs. Which could open up a whole new topic.

Thats why I advise them to do the intro to breeding course but even if they do end up where the dollar becomes more important isnt it better for everyone if they are breeding with dogs which wont do any harm to the breed?

Yes that is a fair assumption.

But in some of my cases or ones heard of, the breeding has not not been up to the standard the you or I or others would require. This includes the whelping conditions and general health for the bitch and her future litter.

That is unregistered litters, use of the local dogs seen at the park. Not enough knowledge of the breed and using dog with bad conformation.

One of the greatest problems is that when the pups are sold on the new owners perpetuate the situation by doing the same thing.

This goes against the grain with me.

I however have no problems with persons who breed and are registered and do the right thing by their pups.

I may find myself in a similar situation in the coming years, but I will always breed registered pups and and use the best of the blood lines that may be found.

I will also vaccinate and micro chip which may be found to be lacking in some of the non registered breeder cases.

[Steve]

I believe that if we truly do have the integrity of the breed at heart that we would allow our dogs to go out without restriction for breeding to those who want a breeding dog.

I believe that id someone says they may want to breed even if they dont want to show that they should be sold a dog outright which the breeder considers will do no harm to the breed.

We have limited the gene pools by our controlling methods to a point where some breeds are in real danger and while that may make the breeder feel they can control what is going on in my opinion its placed in a position we didnt need to be in.

There are 33000 members of the ANKC and of them Australia wide only 4 and a half thousand are breeders - we are a dying race. Not much point in having a great "line" if it dies out when you do.

I agree with what you say, but most start off all honorable and then, the dollar signs start to become more important.

I find it unusual to get an inquiry for, Show or Breeding stock these days.

When I sell a pet it is de sexed I don't need contracts end of story.

Even when sold to other breeders, if they decide they don't want it, they to can do the wrong thing and sell on as a pet not de sexed.

I believe what is in the back of our minds is that we are doing what we do to stop any puppy farmer or Byb getting hold of any pure bred stock.

Yes we can sit and discuss this for hours and still not come out with suitable outcome.

Maybe it is a sign of the times but the average citizen appears not to want to show dogs. Which could open up a whole new topic.

Thats why I advise them to do the intro to breeding course but even if they do end up where the dollar becomes more important isnt it better for everyone if they are breeding with dogs which wont do any harm to the breed?

Yes that is a fair assumption.

But in some of my cases or ones heard of, the breeding has not not been up to the standard the you or I or others would require. This includes the whelping conditions and general health for the bitch and her future litter.

That is unregistered litters, use of the local dogs seen at the park. Not enough knowledge of the breed and using dog with bad conformation.

One of the greatest problems is that when the pups are sold on the new owners perpetuate the situation by doing the same thing.

This goes against the grain with me.

I however have no problems with persons who breed and are registered and do the right thing by their pups.

I may find myself in a similar situation in the coming years, but I will always breed registered pups and and use the best of the blood lines that may be found.

I will also vaccinate and micro chip which may be found to be lacking in some of the non registered breeder cases.

But if people who want to breed get access to good breeding dogs rather than having to go with anything they can get because the good ones arent made available to them surely its better for everyone and the puppies they breed.

And registered breeders muck it up too. Example. A judge - well respected by his peers. They only vaccinate one male and one female in each litter and photo copy the vaccination certificate no microchips.No gosip this is a fact. We need more people breeding good quality registered dogs whether they show them or not and the only way to do that is to allow them to have access to good dogs and give them all the info and education and support we can.

[Sunnyflower]

I have a question I would love answered as it was presented to me yesterday.

We are puppy inquiring at the moment and my dream breed was available in my local area and there is only one pup available being a male and ONLY available on breeders terms/Co-ownership as the father had passed and they are retaining the other male and want this boy as a backup just in case.

I was offered their 'pet price' of $2,300 however it is breeders terms and co-ownership and we have to sign a contract and the dog must stay intact and we must pay for all the health testing needing to ensure the dog is healthy if they choose to breed with him.

We are happy to do breeders terms & co-ownership however we felt it was a little unfair to be governed by them only to be sold the pup at their FULL pet price yet we have to stick to their very strict rules. I would think if you are offering this you would offer the pup at a reduced price as you are still getting the benefits from the dog yet the other pet puppies are being sold at the same price and they can choose the dogs path.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

[cowanbree]

Any time I breed a litter I am always going to place my puppies in the best home for them. I brought them into this world and it is my responsibility as their breeder.

I get a lot of breeding enquiries, not show people but either people wanting to breed their pets or even worse puppy farms. While selling them my puppies may improve the quality of the dogs they are producing is it best for the puppies, of course not. They may be bred without health testing, they may be bred endlessly and when money becomes involved their puppies tend to be sold to the first person with the available dollars regardless of suitability.

My pets will always be sold on a desexing contract and I will always enforce it. If you want to breed/show I expect you to build a relationship with me so I know we have compatible views and yes that dog will be on joint ownership. I will help and mentor you but I will not support pet breeding. Breed the best to the best and improve the breed.

[cowanbree]

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

I have only done it once but yes I did charge full pet price but I would have paid for the health testing and they would have been paid a stud fee. Reduced if it was over my own dogs but full prcie for any others.

[Steve]

I have a question I would love answered as it was presented to me yesterday.

We are puppy inquiring at the moment and my dream breed was available in my local area and there is only one pup available being a male and ONLY available on breeders terms/Co-ownership as the father had passed and they are retaining the other male and want this boy as a backup just in case.

I was offered their 'pet price' of $2,300 however it is breeders terms and co-ownership and we have to sign a contract and the dog must stay intact and we must pay for all the health testing needing to ensure the dog is healthy if they choose to breed with him.

We are happy to do breeders terms & co-ownership however we felt it was a little unfair to be governed by them only to be sold the pup at their FULL pet price yet we have to stick to their very strict rules. I would think if you are offering this you would offer the pup at a reduced price as you are still getting the benefits from the dog yet the other pet puppies are being sold at the same price and they can choose the dogs path.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

There isnt a ny definitive answer as every breeder is different and is able to put any conditions or price on they wish.I would never consider buy a dog on breeders terms and I wouldnt touch this one with a barge pole.

[Sunnyflower]

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

I have only done it once but yes I did charge full pet price but I would have paid for the health testing and they would have been paid a stud fee. Reduced if it was over my own dogs but full prcie for any others.

Thank you Cowanbree. This we would have been fine with however we were responsible for all health testing and their was no stud fee for us at all and if we were to allow the dog to be breed with another pure breed dog then they requested the full stud fee from this. Not that we would ever offer a dog on stud because it is of zero interest to us.

[Mystiqview]

On one of the major free pet listings. There is one breeder there who advertise their pups "UNREGISTERED". They also breed registered litters. The person is also a judge.

I see even through the DOL listings, that not all breeders who are from QLD are microchipping their puppies.. Sorry folks, but Microchipping is now a LEGAL requirement BEFORE they leave you!!! Animal Management Act (Cats and Dogs) 2009.

The quality of breeders on the DOL listings has clearly dropped in my breed. You look at their dogs, breedings and the AMOUNT of puppies being sold, you just have to wander.. There are even a couple of breeders there who have PERMANENT ads up. They just keep updating the listing to this month's puppy availability.

You hear numerous reports from a number of people of problems within in multiple litters. Yet they want to breed yet another 6th litter from the same bitch!!!! When CCCQ only allow 4 litters on a bitch (need theirs and vet approval for more). (There have been a few rants on FB by other breeders re this as it is advised by the breeder as well)

Unfortunately, when the respected breeders see this, and they themselves have been lied to by similar bad ethical breeders, they shut their doors to access to their dogs, making it harder and harder for people to try to do the right thing and use GOOD dogs to keep the breed going in the best light possible. Otherwise it is like someone else just posted - the bad circle keeps going around. Bad dogs being used over bad bitches producing bad puppies.

I have only been in the breed here (breeding) for 8 years. But when I decided to leap from dog owner to breeder, I made a choice to do it properly. No shortcuts, and be responsible. Not just pump puppies out using any dog I can get my hands on, or use what is sitting in my back yard. I went on the search for any breed/breeding/genetic/health/training book I could get my hands on to the point now I can say I have a pretty impressive library.

I am not an advocate for manditory 8 week desexing. I am sitting on the other side of the fence for that. I get asked for Mains Registered pups, my answer is no. I was prepared once to help someone out and get them started, until I found out what they were up to. Thankfully they did not get one of my puppies. They ended up getting a puppy from a colour breeder saying it was "show quality". Sorry it wasn't - it had a blue eye.. a major fault in the breed.

It is a shame that many breeds are falling down in numbers and DECENT breeders. We are being more and more regulated, more and more likely due to this. Again a shame.

[Sunnyflower]

I have a question I would love answered as it was presented to me yesterday.

We are puppy inquiring at the moment and my dream breed was available in my local area and there is only one pup available being a male and ONLY available on breeders terms/Co-ownership as the father had passed and they are retaining the other male and want this boy as a backup just in case.

I was offered their 'pet price' of $2,300 however it is breeders terms and co-ownership and we have to sign a contract and the dog must stay intact and we must pay for all the health testing needing to ensure the dog is healthy if they choose to breed with him.

We are happy to do breeders terms & co-ownership however we felt it was a little unfair to be governed by them only to be sold the pup at their FULL pet price yet we have to stick to their very strict rules. I would think if you are offering this you would offer the pup at a reduced price as you are still getting the benefits from the dog yet the other pet puppies are being sold at the same price and they can choose the dogs path.

If you offer a puppy on breeders terms/co-ownership do you still charge FULL pet price or do you offer it at an agreed pet price?

There isnt a ny definitive answer as every breeder is different and is able to put any conditions or price on they wish.I would never consider buy a dog on breeders terms and I wouldnt touch this one with a barge pole.

Thanks Steve. We asked to read the contract to see what it outlined than declined. It is just good information to know as we are just purely pet owners.

[Steve]

Any time I breed a litter I am always going to place my puppies in the best home for them. I brought them into this world and it is my responsibility as their breeder.

I get a lot of breeding enquiries, not show people but either people wanting to breed their pets or even worse puppy farms. While selling them my puppies may improve the quality of the dogs they are producing is it best for the puppies, of course not. They may be bred without health testing, they may be bred endlessly and when money becomes involved their puppies tend to be sold to the first person with the available dollars regardless of suitability.

My pets will always be sold on a desexing contract and I will always enforce it. If you want to breed/show I expect you to build a relationship with me so I know we have compatible views and yes that dog will be on joint ownership. I will help and mentor you but I will not support pet breeding. Breed the best to the best and improve the breed.

O.K. so how will you enforce a desexing contract? And suggesting selling puppies to those who want to breed doesnt mean you are still not going to be discrimminatory about who you sell to. It doesnt mean you just sell them to idiots or puppy farmers.

You place just as much risk on selling to a registered show breeder as you do to anyone else. Im not suggesting we sell breeding dogs to just anyone - just more than we do now and with less conditions than we do now.

[Steve]

On one of the major free pet listings. There is one breeder there who advertise their pups "UNREGISTERED". They also breed registered litters. The person is also a judge.

I see even through the DOL listings, that not all breeders who are from QLD are microchipping their puppies.. Sorry folks, but Microchipping is now a LEGAL requirement BEFORE they leave you!!! Animal Management Act (Cats and Dogs) 2009.

The quality of breeders on the DOL listings has clearly dropped in my breed. You look at their dogs, breedings and the AMOUNT of puppies being sold, you just have to wander.. There are even a couple of breeders there who have PERMANENT ads up. They just keep updating the listing to this month's puppy availability.

You hear numerous reports from a number of people of problems within in multiple litters. Yet they want to breed yet another 6th litter from the same bitch!!!! When CCCQ only allow 4 litters on a bitch (need theirs and vet approval for more). (There have been a few rants on FB by other breeders re this as it is advised by the breeder as well)

Unfortunately, when the respected breeders see this, and they themselves have been lied to by similar bad ethical breeders, they shut their doors to access to their dogs, making it harder and harder for people to try to do the right thing and use GOOD dogs to keep the breed going in the best light possible. Otherwise it is like someone else just posted - the bad circle keeps going around. Bad dogs being used over bad bitches producing bad puppies.

I have only been in the breed here (breeding) for 8 years. But when I decided to leap from dog owner to breeder, I made a choice to do it properly. No shortcuts, and be responsible. Not just pump puppies out using any dog I can get my hands on, or use what is sitting in my back yard. I went on the search for any breed/breeding/genetic/health/training book I could get my hands on to the point now I can say I have a pretty impressive library.

I am not an advocate for manditory 8 week desexing. I am sitting on the other side of the fence for that. I get asked for Mains Registered pups, my answer is no. I was prepared once to help someone out and get them started, until I found out what they were up to. Thankfully they did not get one of my puppies. They ended up getting a puppy from a colour breeder saying it was "show quality". Sorry it wasn't - it had a blue eye.. a major fault in the breed.

It is a shame that many breeds are falling down in numbers and DECENT breeders. We are being more and more regulated, more and more likely due to this. Again a shame.

Im old enough and been breeding dogs long enough to remember what it was like before all of this control stuff started. There were healthier dogs, more breeders, more choices, bigger gene pools. If you wanted to breed dogs no one really cared if you were going to breed registered puppies or not or if you were going to show or not.

If you said you might want to breed the breeder simply gave you a good dog that wouldn't be a genetic time bomb and which if you did breed it wouldnt do any harm to the breed. If you wanted to use a good champion stud dog as long as your bitch was on main register you were able to front up and get the dog mated. O.K. recent history has shown us that some breeders breed for money but they always have done.

Think of some of the big kennels in years gone by which had up to 100 dogs. These breeders were seen to be the experts and highly respected because even though they made a living from what they did they put that back into breeding better dogs and being able to concentrate on it without needing to go out to work. If one of their dogs developed a problem they were taken out of the gene pool and they had enough dogs to work on ensuring the problem was wiped out in their kennel.

People we knew when I was a kid owned a registered purebred bitch and every year they took her off to be mated by a champion dog .Every year she had a dozen puppies which were registered and sold and that bought the family a new lounge suit or a new car etc. Where was the harm? It was a good healthy bitch and they chose good healthy dogs to mate them with. Each was a good example of the breed and they bred them to make their money back for what they spent on them. Showing was never ever on the table - they trusted the breeder to sell them a good pup because they told her they wanted to breed and they didnt need a show ring to tell them it looked pretty good and its ancestors had done well in the ring.

Microchipping puppies before they go home has been a law in NSW since 1998 and there are still registered breeders who dont chip - except since January THIS year the CC wont register them with out a chip number.Only took them 12 years

This stuff about protecting bloodlines and ensuring their puppies arent used in puppy farms, doing things we are told to do regarding husbandry regardless of whether its good for the breed or the species is a recent development and we follow on like lambs to the slaughter.Whats worse we have allowed ourselves to be educated and legislated by people who have never bred or even owned a purebred breeding dog.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[poodlefan]

I wonder where all those who say "all desexed" or "all limit register" see the future generations of purebred dogs and breeders coming from.

I shudder to think of some breeds going out desexed as baby puppies and do wonder, given that there is research that links the practice to issues like HD about the liablility issues.

However in popular/valuable breeds, vasectomy or tubal ligation are procedures that IMO should be more popular than they are now.

Perhaps it comes down to discussion/negotiation with the buyers. If the pup is to be pet only then limit register is appropriate. Perhaps co-ownership of any first Main Register dogs going to new buyers until you see if they honour their undertakings.

But the next generation of exhibitor/breeders have to start somewhere. Like SSM, I know plenty of people with entire, Main Register dogs who haven't shafted the breeder or bred irresponsibly. I'm one of them.