Selling Dogs

[sheena]

Cosmetic points like colour, markings or ear carriage have no bearing on a dog's stucture. They may be considered as faults for the showring but would not be important when assessing breeding stock. Structure, soundness, temperament and health are what should decide if a dog is on main or limit register.

But certain colours can't be put on mains register, unless the breeder lies about it, so therefor can't be bred from

[cowanbree]

Cosmetic points like colour, markings or ear carriage have no bearing on a dog's stucture. They may be considered as faults for the showring but would not be important when assessing breeding stock. Structure, soundness, temperament and health are what should decide if a dog is on main or limit register.

But certain colours can't be put on mains register, unless the breeder lies about it, so therefor can't be bred from

And shouldn't be as they do not comply with the standard

[dancinbcs]

Cosmetic points like colour, markings or ear carriage have no bearing on a dog's stucture. They may be considered as faults for the showring but would not be important when assessing breeding stock. Structure, soundness, temperament and health are what should decide if a dog is on main or limit register.

But certain colours can't be put on mains register, unless the breeder lies about it, so therefor can't be bred from

My argument exactly with the stupid colour rule introduced by the ANKC without any consultation with breeders. Idiotic to make our ONLY disqualification from main registration based on something as insignificant as coat colour. If the breeders ask what colour they can main register a puppy they are actually being told to register them as the closest listed colour. Absolutely stupid and just results in a whole lot of dogs being registered as the wrong colour. As every other country allows all colours it means that if you want to export a main register puppy it has to have the wrong colour registered, be exported and have the colour altered in the country it is going to.

[sheena]

Cosmetic points like colour, markings or ear carriage have no bearing on a dog's stucture. They may be considered as faults for the showring but would not be important when assessing breeding stock. Structure, soundness, temperament and health are what should decide if a dog is on main or limit register.

But certain colours can't be put on mains register, unless the breeder lies about it, so therefor can't be bred from

My argument exactly with the stupid colour rule introduced by the ANKC without any consultation with breeders. Idiotic to make our ONLY disqualification from main registration based on something as insignificant as coat colour. If the breeders ask what colour they can main register a puppy they are actually being told to register them as the closest listed colour. Absolutely stupid and just results in a whole lot of dogs being registered as the wrong colour. As every other country allows all colours it means that if you want to export a main register puppy it has to have the wrong colour registered, be exported and have the colour altered in the country it is going to.

And this is going to lead to all sorts of problems down the track, when a breeder is researching pedigrees to help with their breeding programs, only to discover that a so & so dog, way back in the line was not really a red, but a sable or was a chocolate tri instead of the listed chocolate. I am glad I am not a breeder, but I find the whole topic very interesting.

Edited June 10, 2011 by sheena

[Steve]

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle.

The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy.

They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

[Gayle.]

Merle x merle Australian Shepherds can be registered on main. In fact I have one here....main registered (neutered) bitch from a blue merle to blue merle mating.

[PetSitters]

To improve the breed you only breed on with the best. In nature the strongest survive by natural selection. With domesticated dogs the breeders need to pick the puppies with the soundest conformation and temperament that would have been more likely to survive if left to nature. Dogs with poor structure break down faster and would be left behind by the pack. Nature never intended for all puppies to live to breeding age and there is usually a whole spectrum in each litter. These days minor structural problems pose no problem for a non breeding pet that doesn't need to hunt to survive but that doesn't mean that they should be bred from. In most litters there are one ot two stand out puppies and these are the ones that should carry on the lines. Some litters are all crap so the pick of litter may not be as good as either parent. In that case none should be bred from. Occasionally a litter, often tightly line bred, will produce several really good and even quality puppies but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Puppies with structural faults as well as breed faults should be limit registered to prevent them contributing faulty genes to the breed's future gene pool. Puppies worthy of being on main register should be on main register, even if it means selling them in partnership to prevent them being onsold to dealers and puppy farms. The problem is a lot of people breeding, even if they show, have no idea what constitutes a soundly constructed puppy. I have had breeders say they have no idea about conformation. If they don't know the basics they should not be breeding, but they do.

I understand the concept - the part that doesn't sit well with me is that we as humans are doing the natural selection thing, we decide what is the best conformation not nature - who's to say we haven't ballsed up and the standard really isn't the best the dog could be. I hear all the time of standard changes and of breeds no longer representing what they should.

anything a human has a hand in producing is just as likely to backfire if you ask me.

My honest opinion is that some of the labs i've seen on the net that are meant to be show winners seem rather heavy boned/large set - I'm not sure how this would help a retrieving dog who needs to be fairly active. Again I'm a noob at it so could be completely wrong. Btw I have no interest in becoming a breeder I just find it a little sad we as humans decide which dogs are deemed 'worthy' of reproducing (exceptions for deformities and illnesses and the like - common sense).

I agree with you. Dogs are being put on mains register & bred from, just because they have good confirmation etc in the show ring, but maybe those dogs have problems with giving birth naturally for example....a very important fact for natural survival. Also with my breed, Border Collies, certain colours are not accepted on the mains register anymore, or pricked ears, means you have no chance in the show ring, so what do these "faults" have to do with whether a dog is structurally sound & should or should not not be allowed on mains register???? Look what our years of selective breeding has done to the poor old King Charles Spaniel, or breeds with flat faces or GSD's that can't walk a straight line without wobbling on their back legs. I am not a breeder, just an observer from the sidelines.

Some of the GSD breedings are shocking examples of the breed as a working dog and really need to be outcrossed on some good working line dogs to pep them up a bit, but show breeders would cut their wrists before outcrossing on working line dogs primarily because the progeny won't win shows which in my opinion is the wrong breeding concept for maintaining the breeds integrity

[dancinbcs]

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle.

The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy.

They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

You cannot register merle to merle in Border Collies but I think it is the only breed with that rule. Strange it hasn't been applied to the other breeds. All the other colours in Border Collies have no bearing on health and are perfectly acceptable for showing and breeding everywhere else in the world, just not here.

All the breed standards need overhauling by genetic experts in relation to what colours should and shouldn't be allowed. Any colour that affects health or is genetically impossible in a purebred dog of a particular breed, needs to a disqualifying colour. Other than that all colours should be allowed. Allowing breed committees with no understanding of colour genetics to just pick the colours they like is why we have this mess in the first place.

[Steve]

Except sometimes colours affect health. Merle x merle for example. Though strange that harlequin x harlequin can be on mains but not merle.

The MDBA registry is not as hard on colour for main register in some breeds - white boxers for example can be on the main register - however they can only be bred with a plain boxer - which means 100% of puppies will be flashy.

They cannot be bred to a white or flashy boxer therefore ensuring that no white boxers will come of the mating. Flashy to flashy which is how you get white boxers in the first place is not recommended but not prohibited.

You cannot register merle to merle in Border Collies but I think it is the only breed with that rule. Strange it hasn't been applied to the other breeds. All the other colours in Border Collies have no bearing on health and are perfectly acceptable for showing and breeding everywhere else in the world, just not here.

All the breed standards need overhauling by genetic experts in relation to what colours should and shouldn't be allowed. Any colour that affects health or is genetically impossible in a purebred dog of a particular breed, needs to a disqualifying colour. Other than that all colours should be allowed. Allowing breed committees with no understanding of colour genetics to just pick the colours they like is why we have this mess in the first place.

Danes too.

[RubyBlue]

Desexing does not make a fat lazy dog, people who overfeed their dog make it fat.

My experience is different. I went from struggling to keep weight on my dog to struggling to keep it off following a spey. Our exercise regime has not changed.

Edited June 17, 2011 by RubyBlue

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Desexing does not make a fat lazy dog, people who overfeed their dog make it fat.

My experience is different. I went from struggling to keep weight on my dog to struggling to keep it off following a spey. Our exercise regime has not changed.

RubyBlue makes an important point. Desexing often makes it necessary to cut food and increase exercise. Even then it can be hard. I think many trainers, breeders and showies are so used to adjusting food and exercise up and down for different dogs for different purposes that they forget that your average person finds it much harder to make judgements about whether the dog is getting fat and then follow through with changed arrangements.

I don't think it does the desexing cause a lot of good to tell people that their experience of a dog getting fat and lazy is a result of overfeeding rather than desexing. It's often the result of a person not adjusting their dog's diet and lifestyle to compensate for the effects of desexing.

[Gayle.]

Desexing does not make a fat lazy dog, people who overfeed their dog make it fat.

My experience is different. I went from struggling to keep weight on my dog to struggling to keep it off following a spey. Our exercise regime has not changed.

RubyBlue makes an important point. Desexing often makes it necessary to cut food and increase exercise. Even then it can be hard. I think many trainers, breeders and showies are so used to adjusting food and exercise up and down for different dogs for different purposes that they forget that your average person finds it much harder to make judgements about whether the dog is getting fat and then follow through with changed arrangements.

I don't think it does the desexing cause a lot of good to tell people that their experience of a dog getting fat and lazy is a result of overfeeding rather than desexing. It's often the result of a person not adjusting their dog's diet and lifestyle to compensate for the effects of desexing.

My husband told me (after he looked after Benson and Shae for a few days, on his own) "Shae can eat more than that, that's hardly ANYTHING for her, she'll be finished that in seconds". I had to explain to him that just because she can eat more (she could eat 10kgs of food given the opportunity), doesn't mean she should be given it and she'll eat ten scoops just as fast as the two scoops she's allowed.

Shae is a teeny, tiny neutered Australian Shepherd bitch. She wouldn't stand more than 16 inches at the shoulder and I doubt she weighs more than 15 kgs. I am under no illuision as to what she'd look like if she was allowed her fill of food every day. She doesn't get much food because there's not much of her to fill up, and she's nicely lean and muscled on my preferred diet (2/3 cup high quality kibble and one raw chicken drum a day).

I hate to think how much food he fed her in the few days he was in charge! LOL! And I have no doubt she'll look forward to my next trip away!

[Sayreovi]

I don't think it does the desexing cause a lot of good to tell people that their experience of a dog getting fat and lazy is a result of overfeeding rather than desexing.

How does it impact the 'desexing cause' that being told overfeeding is the reason for their dogs weight gain and subsequent lack of energy? It's one of the easiest things to change and improves the quality of life. If more people were told that desexed dogs require less food and adjusted accordingly maybe there wouldn't be so many wives tales about 'desexing makes your dog fat'.

[BJean]

I don't think it does the desexing cause a lot of good to tell people that their experience of a dog getting fat and lazy is a result of overfeeding rather than desexing.

How does it impact the 'desexing cause' that being told overfeeding is the reason for their dogs weight gain and subsequent lack of energy? It's one of the easiest things to change and improves the quality of life. If more people were told that desexed dogs require less food and adjusted accordingly maybe there wouldn't be so many wives tales about 'desexing makes your dog fat'.

Desexed dogs require less food

because

Desexing doesn't make your dog fat???

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I don't think it does the desexing cause a lot of good to tell people that their experience of a dog getting fat and lazy is a result of overfeeding rather than desexing.

How does it impact the 'desexing cause' that being told overfeeding is the reason for their dogs weight gain and subsequent lack of energy? It's one of the easiest things to change and improves the quality of life. If more people were told that desexed dogs require less food and adjusted accordingly maybe there wouldn't be so many wives tales about 'desexing makes your dog fat'.

A person who has always fed a certain amount doesn't conceptualise what they are doing after desexing as overfeeding, they see weight gain - not unreasonably - as the fault of the desexing. So how do you help? By first acknowledging that they are not imagining that desexing has had an impact. Then you explain, as GayleK has, the importance of selecting an appropriate diet.

Edited to put in a missing article.

Edited June 17, 2011 by SkySoaringMagpie

[Sayreovi]

I don't think it does the desexing cause a lot of good to tell people that their experience of a dog getting fat and lazy is a result of overfeeding rather than desexing.

How does it impact the 'desexing cause' that being told overfeeding is the reason for their dogs weight gain and subsequent lack of energy? It's one of the easiest things to change and improves the quality of life. If more people were told that desexed dogs require less food and adjusted accordingly maybe there wouldn't be so many wives tales about 'desexing makes your dog fat'.

Desexed dogs require less food

because

Desexing doesn't make your dog fat???

Maybe I should say less energy(kj) per day rather than food if that's less confusing.

Having a desexed dog doesn't automatically mean a fat lazy dog.

[laeral]

My GSD was desexed at 6 months. I never had to decrease her food intake. In fact at times she is hard to keep weight on, she is very active and quite lean. She certainly isn't fat and lazy and I certainly didnt notice a difference when she was desexed.

[Crisovar]

My GSD was desexed at 6 months. I never had to decrease her food intake. In fact at times she is hard to keep weight on, she is very active and quite lean. She certainly isn't fat and lazy and I certainly didnt notice a difference when she was desexed.

You obviously have a very high energy dog.

The average dog does not have the same energy requirements after desexing.

My GSD was desexed at 20 months she requires much less than she did previously.

[Steve]

Actually saying that owners cause dogs to be fat post desexing isn’t really the whole story. Ovaries produce estrogen, and if you take that away from a mammal the body looks for other places to get needed estrogen from. Fat cells can produce estrogen, so when the estrogen goes the body works harder to convert calories into fat to increase estrogen levels. Fat cells don't burn calories the way muscle cells do, which causes the weight gain

Testosterone helps the body to create lean muscle mass out of the calories that are taken in. Muscle cells burn more calories than fat cells do, increasing the metabolism. When levels of testosterone drop it results in the loss of this muscle. This means a lower metabolism. The lower the metabolism is, the slower the body burns calories, which causes weight gain.

If you start to lower the food intake when you notice a bit of weight gain then the body can go into “famine effect” and these stress hormones signal the body to hang onto all the food that comes in – in case the body doesn’t get enough food for a long time so it starts to store calories.

Fact is an extra weight gain may even lessen the results of these hormones not being present and help to protect against bone diseases, incontinence etc so don’t be too hard on yourself if your dogs put on a bit of extra weight when they are desexed. You don’t want fat dogs but it might be in their best interests to have them a bit meatier post op that they were pre op.

If these hormones decrease naturally the body prepares for it and the results are not as obvious but when they are taken away in a young animal there is definitely stuff going on inside the dog which the owners have no idea of.

[KOE]

My GSD was desexed at 6 months. I never had to decrease her food intake. In fact at times she is hard to keep weight on, she is very active and quite lean. She certainly isn't fat and lazy and I certainly didnt notice a difference when she was desexed.

IS that Mica that was desexed at 6 months, she certainly looks normal.

I have a bitch desexed at 7 years and has never changed and cant fill her up at 9 years, a dog desexed at 6 and is on a constant diet, I really dont think it is because they are desexed that they get fat. 1 mutt is fat and the other mutt normal.