Selling Dogs

[corvus]

Don't want to go too off topic, but thought I'd put this out there.

Would most breeders generally still put dogs on limited register with desexing contracts for sporting homes? How about sporting homes who are who are not interested in breeding or showing?

My chosen breed is meant to be versatile so I think it's important to keep dogs in the gene pool that have letters after their names, whether they also have them before or not Do you think there is a place in breeding programs for these dogs, and if so, do you encourage sporting homes to keep their dogs entire and on main register if they are a good example of their breed?

I think that is an excellent question and am also very interested in hearing breeders' viewpoints on it.

[bedazzledx2]

Me too! I require a sporting dog to be excellent in conformation in order to be able to use its body and brain to do the job I require it to do. Many breeders are still of the mind set of selling their not so well conformed dogs for obedience or agility. Over the years I have heard the comment from the showies..."will make a good obedience/agility dog ha ha" We actually require the best and for me I am happy to show title my dogs as well. If you think about it the breeders prefix is announced every time the dog qualifies in a sporting event.

Don't want to go too off topic, but thought I'd put this out there.

Would most breeders generally still put dogs on limited register with desexing contracts for sporting homes? How about sporting homes who are who are not interested in breeding or showing?

My chosen breed is meant to be versatile so I think it's important to keep dogs in the gene pool that have letters after their names, whether they also have them before or not Do you think there is a place in breeding programs for these dogs, and if so, do you encourage sporting homes to keep their dogs entire and on main register if they are a good example of their breed?

I think that is an excellent question and am also very interested in hearing breeders' viewpoints on it.

[JoeK]

None of this selling dogs on the contract and limited register is the breeders fault becuase the breeders will do what ever con jobs the public will accepting and only the public can be fixing this problem for my opinion.

If the public saying no we not interested in the crooked dealing that only favor the breeder, the breeder then have to decide if they want to sell their pups or keep them? The co ownership is ok if the breeder playing the game is should be half ownership you buying half a dog and should be half price. Then the upkeeping on the dog on the cost should be paid half by the breeder. When the dog is bred, the owner pay half the costs for breeding and stud dog and get half the profit from puppy sales is fair on the co ownership and if not, breeder is doing a con job for their own benefit.

Then buyer needing to decide if they get sucked into con job from the breeder or walking away to find breeder who is not ripping the people off and restricting rights to own pure breed dog with the pedigree paper.

Would you buying a new car with the contract saying you cant driving car on the weekend becuase it reduce the pollution on the world, and you cant drive the car if is dirty becuase it take away beautiful look of the shiny car and is bad for the dealer image and you cant drive the car on the gravel road becuase it get dirty and maybe no place to clean it before someone see car dirty car and is says on the contract no dogs allowed in the car to help stop the puppy farming, so asking yourself, you buy this car on the contract? Of course not, so why buying pup on one same thing yes?

Joe

[Crisovar]

Yep and sometimes different goals are good too. Doesnt matter what you are breeding toward as long as you dont compromise on what else you need to cover. When someone cant access a good dog to breed with they have no choice but to compromise if they still want to continue. Who is responsible for that the person who compromises or the people who gave them no choice? Alright to say if you dont like it move on but in some breeds moving on isnt an option if you still want to try and get it right.

What does it matter if everyone who breeds doesnt show as long as enough show to ensure there are animals available for breeding which pass the beauty contest?

Do you honestly believe that it is just a beauty contest???

If that is all it is perceived to be then we may as well throw the bloody lot in now.

[Crisovar]

My chosen breed is meant to be versatile so I think it's important to keep dogs in the gene pool that have letters after their names, whether they also have them before or not Do you think there is a place in breeding programs for these dogs, and if so, do you encourage sporting homes to keep their dogs entire and on main register if they are a good example of their breed?

Yes, because the working homes were chosen with the same care as any other pup, and those pups that excelled were of course valuable to the gene pool.

[Christina]

Would you buying a new car with the contract saying you cant driving car on the weekend becuase it reduce the pollution on the world, and you cant drive the car if is dirty becuase it take away beautiful look of the shiny car and is bad for the dealer image and you cant drive the car on the gravel road becuase it get dirty and maybe no place to clean it before someone see car dirty car and is says on the contract no dogs allowed in the car to help stop the puppy farming, so asking yourself, you buy this car on the contract? Of course not, so why buying pup on one same thing yes?

Joe

A puppy is not a car. Anyone who thought buying a puppy is the same as buying a car would not be buying from me. It is the breeders choice what & how they do it. Some do seem to have ridiculous or unfair conditions & some don't care about anything & merely want the money.

It is up to the buyer to go with the one they are most comfortable with.

We may have no choice at all one day. You may only be able to get a puppy from a government controlled breeder, produced to government specifications, produce in government controlled conditions. Like a car really

[Steve]

Yep and sometimes different goals are good too. Doesnt matter what you are breeding toward as long as you dont compromise on what else you need to cover. When someone cant access a good dog to breed with they have no choice but to compromise if they still want to continue. Who is responsible for that the person who compromises or the people who gave them no choice? Alright to say if you dont like it move on but in some breeds moving on isnt an option if you still want to try and get it right.

What does it matter if everyone who breeds doesnt show as long as enough show to ensure there are animals available for breeding which pass the beauty contest?

Do you honestly believe that it is just a beauty contest???

If that is all it is perceived to be then we may as well throw the bloody lot in now.

No I dont honestly believe its JUST a beauty contest and thats not what I said or meant but the fact of the matter is that when you show a dog it is judged by what is able to be seen on the day and the winner is awarded based on the judges perception and interpretation of a breed standard.

As you are aware its ONE part of what a breeder needs to take into account when choosing a breeding dog.

I meant - If there are enough of these animals - who have been judged to look the part and their progeny is able to be utilised by others for breeding then in my opinion its not going to hurt the breeds if everyone who breeds them doesnt show themselves as much as the breeds are being hurt now.

By allowing people who might want to breed have dogs which are a good representative of the breed from animals which have been judged in a conformation show to be close to the breed standard then all animals being bred have a better chance of being able to pass muster in how they look.

The gene pools have been reduced, breeder numbers and dogs being bred have dropped radically, some breeds cant reproduce without human interference and if we continue as we have done in the last decade where will that leave us and our breeds? Controlling everything because its your bloodlines and wanting unfair conditions and power over everything you breed and manipulating what narrow goals a person can have when they want to breed their dog ?

Surely we need to rethink this and look at the bigger picture. Its all well and good to say if the buyer doesnt like it they can go elsewhere but where is elsewhere when its been so stitched up in many breeds that no one who wont play the conditions game can get a good quality dog even if they dont want to breed ?

The general public and media have percieved dog shows as beauty contests way before now and many of us have thrown it in and if PDE didnt state that perception loudly enough - not sure what will.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[KOE]

From my perspective as a purchaser/Shower when I buy a dog it is my dog no one elses, and I do not treat my animals as chattels they are also part of my family. I also would never go into partnership with anyone nor would I take a puppy on for free to show and be in joint or another persons name. Too many people are taken advantage of and their beloved show dog/pet is taken from them.

I also feel that it is my choice when I desex my dogs not someone telling me I have too.

It is my choice when showing to either continue or not, as I have the dog and would determine weather it is show quality as an adult.

I would never buy a dog on a limited register, they only stop people from showing, it does not stop them from breeding as all breeders are quite aware.

But in saying that when I do purchase a dog and pay top price and the breeder knows that I have every intention in showing that dog I expect a top quality dog not just a that'll do dog. I do not expect to recieve a dog with mental issues nor one with deformities I expect a well adjusted puppy that has that quality to make it in the ring.

When I stop showing then I will consider a dog that is considered as a pet only.

I also have a long list of DO NOT RECOMMEND breeders due to their greed and bad practices.

I really think a lot of it is you need to be able to decipher between the good and bad and go from there.

And just on the end of Steves comment,

The general public and media have percieved dog shows as beauty contests way before now and many of us have thrown it in and if PDE didnt state that perception loudly enough - not sure what will

The general public also believe that when the beauty contest is over the dog is then discarded, and more bred in the way to find that winning specimen. It is funny what people actually think about the world of pure bred dogs.

Edit to add,

Thanyou to the topic poster for placing this here where it can be answered instead of in the breeders threads where puppy buyers can not comment.And just so you all dont think I am one eyed on this subject I had a prefix, once.and I know it costs the same to breed a show dog or a pet so for me price is not the object.

Edited June 4, 2011 by KOE

[cowanbree]

I would consider selling main registered dogs to sporting homes but in my experience they tend to ignore breed quality for working ability and breed dogs that I consider substandard and I find that difficult to accept. I don't believe in my breed there is any need for this, if you are breeding with temperament as a high priority in most litters there is at least one puppy that needs a job and would excel at obedience and agility.

From a buyer point of view I do understand how difficult it is to buy quality main registered dogs without ties. I breed shelties but like to have 1 or 2 aussies with no interest at all in breeding. It has been quite difficult to buy the quality of dog I want outright which I have found quite insulting considering I have been breeding/showing over 20yrs and never had issues before.. I do understand why, we have all been burned before and it makes us wary but surely that shouldn't mean blanket distrust for everyone.

[Steve]

I would consider selling main registered dogs to sporting homes but in my experience they tend to ignore breed quality for working ability and breed dogs that I consider substandard and I find that difficult to accept. I don't believe in my breed there is any need for this, if you are breeding with temperament as a high priority in most litters there is at least one puppy that needs a job and would excel at obedience and agility.

From a buyer point of view I do understand how difficult it is to buy quality main registered dogs without ties. I breed shelties but like to have 1 or 2 aussies with no interest at all in breeding. It has been quite difficult to buy the quality of dog I want outright which I have found quite insulting considering I have been breeding/showing over 20yrs and never had issues before.. I do understand why, we have all been burned before and it makes us wary but surely that shouldn't mean blanket distrust for everyone.

Yep but if we sell them good breed quality that is a good worker and we allow them to use our champion dogs whcih are good at work then they wouldnt need to breed dogs which were good workers but not good specimens of the breed.

If someone wants to breed one of my Maremmas and working ability is more important to them I sell them the best dog via the breed standard as well as one which is best for work - when they go to breed it then they have a good breed quality dog which is also a great worker and I help them find the best breed quality working dog for them to mate with. This has allowed me to have champion dogs in the paddocks working as well as looking the part and becoming champions and as long as the Maremma breeders are showing their working dogs we get the best of both worlds if they dont restrict where they are going too much. So far in this breed there isnt a great divide between how a registered bench Maremma and a registered working Maremma stack up but if we dont allow access to our working conformation champs to working dog breeders we will end up as many other working breeds have.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[Kia]

Me too! I require a sporting dog to be excellent in conformation in order to be able to use its body and brain to do the job I require it to do. Many breeders are still of the mind set of selling their not so well conformed dogs for obedience or agility. Over the years I have heard the comment from the showies..."will make a good obedience/agility dog ha ha" We actually require the best and for me I am happy to show title my dogs as well. If you think about it the breeders prefix is announced every time the dog qualifies in a sporting event.

Don't want to go too off topic, but thought I'd put this out there.

Would most breeders generally still put dogs on limited register with desexing contracts for sporting homes? How about sporting homes who are who are not interested in breeding or showing?

My chosen breed is meant to be versatile so I think it's important to keep dogs in the gene pool that have letters after their names, whether they also have them before or not Do you think there is a place in breeding programs for these dogs, and if so, do you encourage sporting homes to keep their dogs entire and on main register if they are a good example of their breed?

I think that is an excellent question and am also very interested in hearing breeders' viewpoints on it.

Yes Bedazzledx2 all sporting dogs should have excellent conformation to minimise the injuries. While obedience isn't quite so hard on joints agility is. This is where breeders have to make choices. We need those well constructed dogs in our breeding program but once they go to performance homes they are often desexed or the owners aren't interested in the breeding side of things and so the dog is unavailable.

I have been stung on several occasions with dogs on breeders terms and co-ownership so these days I run on my most promising pups. Unfortunatly if these pups don't quite come up to expectation for the showring they end up in pet homes as performance people don't want an older pup or dog.

[Mystiqview]

I agree. Sporting dogs need to have the best conformation as well. It is just as important as a show dog and conformation, if not more so.

My pick bitch went to an agility home. She had good conformation and the drive that she needed to go into a performance home. Temperament wise (with reference to drive), she would not have well adapted to a life of a standard pet home. If she had a fault.. it was her colour, here in Australia it is not recognised, so technically cannot be bred. The owner of the dog, wanted it desexed as soon as possible to avoid limiting training/competing time due to seasons. If the dog was a correct colour, and proved her worth in the sporting field, she would have had a litter to continue the line before being desexed to continue her sporting career. This is at cross-roads to what a breeder wants to continue the line. This is why males are better placed in sporting homes. If only for the ability to compete/train all year round.

I see too many breeders who do breed for sporting/performance, not paying a great consideration to conformation. It is great to choose your breeding on performance ability. But if you do not pay careful attention to structure, then it will not matter how good the temperament is if the dog keeps breaking down due to injury as a result of poor conformation.

Those who do breed for performance, should be breeding to the standard as well. Interpretation of the standard is the problem. What one person thinks it should mean can differ greatly to someone else. Showing, is becoming harder and harder with finding good fair judges who will judge the dog and not the person on the end of the lead. Too often you hear comments like "Don't bother with that judge as they are a XXXX favourite judge."

I will agree with Dancinbcs with why so many of us in our breed why so many are sold on Limit or Co-own. Too many breeders have been badly bitten by new breeders coming into the breed wishing to make a quick buck with selling coloured dogs for inflated high prices. No care is taken to careful breeding plans, so long as the dog produces colour. The problem then comes, where if you let your dog go to a new breeder and they then in turn do the wrong turn, you are spurned by other breeders down the track when you want to breed a litter. Even worse if you sell a dog to a new breeder and they in turn do the wrong thing. Forget about ever using a good dog ever again. I have a bitch here who I bought from a breeder who is now suspended... She has some lovely qualities, and an impeccable pedigree. I USED to be friends with the breeder until the wrong thing was done.... Try finding a suitable stud without large hoops to jump through!!! People will not let their dogs go to her because of her pedigree and my PREVIOUS association with the breeder. The bitch is not shown due to her prefix and breed politics.

[cowanbree]

I would consider selling main registered dogs to sporting homes but in my experience they tend to ignore breed quality for working ability and breed dogs that I consider substandard and I find that difficult to accept. I don't believe in my breed there is any need for this, if you are breeding with temperament as a high priority in most litters there is at least one puppy that needs a job and would excel at obedience and agility.

Yep but if we sell them good breed quality that is a good worker and we allow them to use our champion dogs whcih are good at work then they wouldnt need to breed dogs which were good workers but not good specimens of the breed.

I can see your point but while it may be bettering the quality of dogs they are breeding given the bitch would be put to sub standard working type dogs the resulting puppies are unlikely to be an improvement on the dam. Also in my breed it is extremely difficult to breed what I consider a top quality sheltie, perhaps 1 pup in each litter is worth on continuing on with and maybe 1 in every 3 litters is outstanding. If you are also looking for drive it would that even more difficult.

[Steve]

All Im asking is that breeders start to question what has become the norm and start thinking about what is best for the breeds over any other consideration.

We are all going to have differing ideas on what we think is going to be best long term for the breeds but that is healthy. Its when we all start acting like clones and end up with such a radical drop in breeder numbers and registered purebred dog numbers which impedes our ability to stand up for ourselves at government level and we blindly follow on led by animal rights philosophies that it begins to surface as a real problem for the long term out look of what we do. Couple that with controlling and power games across the board ,chuck in a bit of pedigreed dogs exposed and bit of beating the hell out of each other because we dare to have a different goal or method and find out too late its all gone . I understand there are many things pulling this including the lack of our ability to own or house as many dogs as we would like to develop a good breeding program but take some time to think it through.

This stuff with such one sided conditions and controls on people who want to buy our puppies is not respecting the people we feel are best suited to living with the puppies we breed. It impedes their rights and in all honesty it takes advantage of them.

[KOE]

All Im asking is that breeders start to question what has become the norm and start thinking about what is best for the breeds over any other consideration.

We are all going to have differing ideas on what we think is going to be best long term for the breeds but that is healthy. Its when we all start acting like clones and end up with such a radical drop in breeder numbers and registered purebred dog numbers which impedes our ability to stand up for ourselves at government level and we blindly follow on led by animal rights philosophies that it begins to surface as a real problem for the long term out look of what we do. Couple that with controlling and power games across the board ,chuck in a bit of pedigreed dogs exposed and bit of beating the hell out of each other because we dare to have a different goal or method and find out too late its all gone . I understand there are many things pulling this including the lack of our ability to own or house as many dogs as we would like to develop a good breeding program but take some time to think it through.

This stuff with such one sided conditions and controls on people who want to buy our puppies is not respecting the people we feel are best suited to living with the puppies we breed. It impedes their rights and in all honesty it takes advantage of them.

your last paragraph gets a huge kudos from me.

[whiskedaway]

From my perspective as a purchaser/Shower when I buy a dog it is my dog no one elses, and I do not treat my animals as chattels they are also part of my family. I also would never go into partnership with anyone nor would I take a puppy on for free to show and be in joint or another persons name. Too many people are taken advantage of and their beloved show dog/pet is taken from them.

I also feel that it is my choice when I desex my dogs not someone telling me I have too.

It is my choice when showing to either continue or not, as I have the dog and would determine weather it is show quality as an adult.

I would never buy a dog on a limited register, they only stop people from showing, it does not stop them from breeding as all breeders are quite aware.

But in saying that when I do purchase a dog and pay top price and the breeder knows that I have every intention in showing that dog I expect a top quality dog not just a that'll do dog. I do not expect to recieve a dog with mental issues nor one with deformities I expect a well adjusted puppy that has that quality to make it in the ring.

When I stop showing then I will consider a dog that is considered as a pet only.

I also have a long list of DO NOT RECOMMEND breeders due to their greed and bad practices.

I really think a lot of it is you need to be able to decipher between the good and bad and go from there.

And just on the end of Steves comment,

The general public and media have percieved dog shows as beauty contests way before now and many of us have thrown it in and if PDE didnt state that perception loudly enough - not sure what will

The general public also believe that when the beauty contest is over the dog is then discarded, and more bred in the way to find that winning specimen. It is funny what people actually think about the world of pure bred dogs.

Edit to add,

Thanyou to the topic poster for placing this here where it can be answered instead of in the breeders threads where puppy buyers can not comment.And just so you all dont think I am one eyed on this subject I had a prefix, once.and I know it costs the same to breed a show dog or a pet so for me price is not the object.

Completely agreed.

I don't think I realised when we bought Halo how lucky we were to get a main registered bitch owned outright, but it's very obvious to me now. I like being able to choose what happens to my dog, and I know my OH would NEVER allow me to purchase a dog in co-ownership. I don't know if I'll breed yet, that's a long way away yet, but I am just so glad that someone took a chance on me. The only way purebred dogs will continue in the future is if someone takes a chance, and if I ever decide to breed I will take a chance on others that I think are worthy as well.

[Steve]

From my perspective as a purchaser/Shower when I buy a dog it is my dog no one elses, and I do not treat my animals as chattels they are also part of my family. I also would never go into partnership with anyone nor would I take a puppy on for free to show and be in joint or another persons name. Too many people are taken advantage of and their beloved show dog/pet is taken from them.

I also feel that it is my choice when I desex my dogs not someone telling me I have too.

It is my choice when showing to either continue or not, as I have the dog and would determine weather it is show quality as an adult.

I would never buy a dog on a limited register, they only stop people from showing, it does not stop them from breeding as all breeders are quite aware.

But in saying that when I do purchase a dog and pay top price and the breeder knows that I have every intention in showing that dog I expect a top quality dog not just a that'll do dog. I do not expect to recieve a dog with mental issues nor one with deformities I expect a well adjusted puppy that has that quality to make it in the ring.

When I stop showing then I will consider a dog that is considered as a pet only.

I also have a long list of DO NOT RECOMMEND breeders due to their greed and bad practices.

I really think a lot of it is you need to be able to decipher between the good and bad and go from there.

And just on the end of Steves comment,

The general public and media have percieved dog shows as beauty contests way before now and many of us have thrown it in and if PDE didnt state that perception loudly enough - not sure what will

The general public also believe that when the beauty contest is over the dog is then discarded, and more bred in the way to find that winning specimen. It is funny what people actually think about the world of pure bred dogs.

Edit to add,

Thanyou to the topic poster for placing this here where it can be answered instead of in the breeders threads where puppy buyers can not comment.And just so you all dont think I am one eyed on this subject I had a prefix, once.and I know it costs the same to breed a show dog or a pet so for me price is not the object.

Completely agreed.

I don't think I realised when we bought Halo how lucky we were to get a main registered bitch owned outright, but it's very obvious to me now. I like being able to choose what happens to my dog, and I know my OH would NEVER allow me to purchase a dog in co-ownership. I don't know if I'll breed yet, that's a long way away yet, but I am just so glad that someone took a chance on me. The only way purebred dogs will continue in the future is if someone takes a chance, and if I ever decide to breed I will take a chance on others that I think are worthy as well.

[Paptacular!]

From my first litter, the pups (both male) I sold on main register with no restrictions.

One owner is keen to begin showing (this will be her first show dog), however the primary purpose for the puppy was companion, agility and obedience.

This person I've built a good relationship with for longer than the first contact of wanting a puppy ;).

I wouldn't be keen to buy a dog with conditions, so it would therefore be hypocritical of me to sell dogs with conditions.

[mumtoshelley]

I brought Shelley on main registration so I could of bred her etc if I wanted too, The breeder even said after I done the health tests etc she would help find the prefect stud dog for her. I've never bred a dog or did any showing, Plus to me I wouldn't know what to look for in a show dog. To me I think Shelley would have been a great show dog, but thats cause I love her and find her good looking. I got Shelley desexed at 5 months old, I would have waited longer but I couldn't keep her safe in the yard we had back then. Plus I didn't want to risk lossing Shelley during pregancy or giving birth.

To say that a desexed dog is misrable is wrong. My Shelley is very happy, If she were still entire means every 6 months she would be locked up and can't go anywhere or do anything for 3 weeks, Which I know my Shelley wouldn't be happy with. Shelley loves to go out and about and explore the world.

Also to say getting them desexed makes them fat and lazy is wrong too. My SHelley is on a diet as she is fat but thats my family and I's fault. Shelley is no where near lazy she is quite happy to walk,run,swim for as long as I am willing to stay out for. Shelley has got a off button when at home she will lay down and sleep if I'm not out there. If I'm out there she is straight up and ready for anything. Shelley I would consider a fairly active dog.

[PetSitters]

Out of interest, does anyone know when and why the idea of limited reg and selling on contracts became popular? From my experience, it seemed to have hit suddenly and nearly every breeder I spoke with was on a similar basis and wondered what triggered and kicked it in? My first pure breed I bought when living in WA in 1982 and I am sure there was no limited reg then and had the choice of either buying papered or not and breeders would advertise papered or unpapered with a price difference. I bought papered not that I bred or showed and I think it was like $200 unpapered or $250 with papers but I remember the breeder asking me which I wanted. My next in 1990 was automatically sold with papers (main reg), the same again in 1995 and 2002 there was no discussion about it.

It was in 2006 I came across limited reg and restrictions and thought WTF is all this about suddenly

Edited June 5, 2011 by PetSitters