Selling Dogs

[Showpony]

Hi,

This is my opinion on Breeder Contract, I personally wouldn't want a dog under these/any conditions IF I was PAYING a FULL PRICE for said puppy. I'm all for half, triple or whatever number of people in a co ownership..........but only if all parties are going to contribute financially to the dogs care.........and this is where I find contracts to be totally unfair.......as most of ones I have seen are worded that the Breeder has all the say and the new owner all the expense.

With desexing pet puppies have have seen where a breeder sell her pups for all the same price....but makes an offer to the pet puppy owners to refund the cost of desexing give a pet price discount on presentation of a vet certicate and receipt, that the desexing has been done.

[BJean]

I wont sell a pet dog overseas without it being desexed before it goes. This tends to blow away most of those enquiries when I mention those terms.

You have sold desexed puppies overseas?

Nope. Not at this point. Quite a few enquiries though!

Isn't it a compliment that they would choose a puppy of your breeding, for their family in another country?

You are asking them for absolute faith in what you send them

but give them no faith in return.

(Let us exclude enquiries from countries where there is a dog meat trade.)

I am not sure what countries you have enquiries from, but a lot of places would not want a puppy from you once you decreed the desexed condition

as early desexing is not common practise and would be received as an insult.

Would you buy a pet puppy from overseas already desexed?

I think if a home wants to invest in a puppy from overseas and then if they decide to breed later, aren't they a good option to breed from your dog? And likely they would be the type of breeder to look outside the norm for bloodlines, afterall they imported for a pet, so imagine what they could do if they decided to breed.

One of my pets overseas would actually be an excellent contribution to its breed (physical type + lineage) in the country the puppy now resides in, but unfortunately his owner will desex him.

Sending a desexed puppy overseas what does it prevent? What is it protecting?

Why is an o/s home that will accept a desexed puppy a better option than the o/s home that won't.

To me, the o/s home that wont accept a desexed ASD / CAS baby puppy tells me that they probably know more about dogs than the home that will, and therefore are most likely a better option for my puppy.

NB: Most people who have owned one or a few dogs in their lifetime do not like to be told what and who to raise their dog, and rightly so, because they have their own knowledge and way of doing things. Even if they routinely desex their dogs, they would not want a puppy already desexed. Particularly if they believe that it is not good for the dog. It is impossible to argue that desexing a baby puppy does not have side effects. Importing/exporting already has enough risks and unknowns, why would you knowingly add more?

Edited June 4, 2011 by lilli

[espinay2]

My breed may be small in numbers here in Australia, but it is static and has been for over 50 years. Internationally it is a different question. I look internationally and I work internationally when it comes to my breed - I wont limit myself by only looking at Australia. If a pup is going to sold entire on the main register here will I want to see my work used productively in a direction I would like to see it go. I work with breeders and people here and overseas in a range of countries with similar goals in this respect. I would prefer to put the welfare of the breed (internationally as well as just in this country) ahead of numbers. Sure, I am happy to help those starting out in the breed just as I was helped. But I will always be selective. JMHO.

Its all very well and good to say "I dont' want Breeder X getting hold of my lines because their dogs are shite". How on earth does Breeder X IMPROVE their dogs if no one will sell them anything decent or allow their stud dog to be used.

First they have to ask..... One of the reasons for co-ownership IMO is to help protect new people from 'pressure' from other breeders who try to 'collect lines' through the back door. I have heard of a few pet or new owners who have had quite a bit of pressure put on them in the past. On a co-ownership they can say 'talk to the breeder'. Now if the breeder was approached directly they may say yes (or they may not - depending on the bitch and if the owner is willing to health test etc). But at least they could be asked. You cant say no if you are never asked. But you cant say yes either. If someone wants to use a dog they should NEVER assume the answer is no until they have been told no directly. I do think a lot of people assume they would never be allowed, but never ask to find out for a fact.

[espinay2]

Sending a desexed puppy overseas what does it prevent? What is it protecting?

A lot of my pet inquiries are from Hawaii (easier to get a dog from Aust that mainland US due to thair quarantine requirements). The desexing is just one issue and we talk a lot about other things as well (yes I am in the process of considering vasectomy etc as an alternative as I am personally not fully comfortable with early desexing - though lots of Pyr breeders do and have done the procedure routinely in the US for around 20 years or so). As the pup can't be shipped until around 11 weeks (ANKC rule) I offer a LOT in that period including individual socialisation and early training and preparing the dog for its journey and life with its new family. Given that the 8 to 12 week period is a crucial one in this respect that is a LOT of work for a breeder to take on and one I wouldnt take on lightly. Frankly, if the potential owners dont like the package being offered and the early desexing is the reason why, I am happy for them to go elsewhere.

And if the enquiries are shonky they will go elsewhere anyway as a result. I do know a breeder who quite a number of years ago now was scammed and the (main register) pup ended up in a Singapore petshop despite thinking she was placing it in a good home. Was only through a strange set of circumstances that she ever found out. I took that situation on board as a lesson.

As for sending a dog to breed overseas. I already have those homes lined up and waiting for a suitable prospect. A different kettle of fish so to speak ;) .

[Sheridan]

Having heard some real horror stories about co-ownership, I would never co-own a dog.

[WreckitWhippet]

The buyer can always take it or leave it. If they don't like the terms and conditions or co-ownership, they can go elsewhere.

[wuffles]

Don't want to go too off topic, but thought I'd put this out there.

Would most breeders generally still put dogs on limited register with desexing contracts for sporting homes? How about sporting homes who are who are not interested in breeding or showing?

My chosen breed is meant to be versatile so I think it's important to keep dogs in the gene pool that have letters after their names, whether they also have them before or not Do you think there is a place in breeding programs for these dogs, and if so, do you encourage sporting homes to keep their dogs entire and on main register if they are a good example of their breed?

[oakway]

Steve wrote

But if people who want to breed get access to good breeding dogs rather than having to go with anything they can get because the good ones aren't made available to them surely its better for everyone and the puppies they breed.

And registered breeders muck it up too. Example. A judge - well respected by his peers. They only vaccinate one male and one female in each litter and photo copy the vaccination certificate no microchips.No gossip this is a fact. We need more people breeding good quality registered dogs whether they show them or not and the only way to do that is to allow them to have access to good dogs and give them all the info and education and support we can.

I agree again with what you say, but I find it rather difficult to hand out pups to inexperienced people who wish to breed or show. I have done this and been caught. It has made me very cautious for ever after. Doesn't stop me selling or helping new people, but I have a lot more guidelines in place.

I believe that they need guidance from an experienced breeder or shower and the only way to ensure that the pup and in some cases the new owner gets a fair go is to keep the pup in both names till you feel sure all is well.

I also offer back up and guidance to the pet purchaser to.

I believe that most breeders that are genuine about their breed do the same.

We can all get caught at some stage but it makes you far more wary the next time. Like the old saying says, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

[Steve]

Steve wrote

But if people who want to breed get access to good breeding dogs rather than having to go with anything they can get because the good ones aren't made available to them surely its better for everyone and the puppies they breed.

And registered breeders muck it up too. Example. A judge - well respected by his peers. They only vaccinate one male and one female in each litter and photo copy the vaccination certificate no microchips.No gossip this is a fact. We need more people breeding good quality registered dogs whether they show them or not and the only way to do that is to allow them to have access to good dogs and give them all the info and education and support we can.

I agree again with what you say, but I find it rather difficult to hand out pups to inexperienced people who wish to breed or show. I have done this and been caught. It has made me very cautious for ever after. Doesn't stop me selling or helping new people, but I have a lot more guidelines in place.

I believe that they need guidance from an experienced breeder or shower and the only way to ensure that the pup and in some cases the new owner gets a fair go is to keep the pup in both names till you feel sure all is well.

I also offer back up and guidance to the pet purchaser to.

I believe that most breeders that are genuine about their breed do the same.

We can all get caught at some stage but it makes you far more wary the next time. Like the old saying says, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Well in the main I agree however, I think sometimes the worst thing a new person can have is guidance from an experienced breeder or shower. All things are not equal and lets be honest - someone has mucked it up a bit havent they?

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[oakway]

Steve wrote

But if people who want to breed get access to good breeding dogs rather than having to go with anything they can get because the good ones aren't made available to them surely its better for everyone and the puppies they breed.

And registered breeders muck it up too. Example. A judge - well respected by his peers. They only vaccinate one male and one female in each litter and photo copy the vaccination certificate no microchips.No gossip this is a fact. We need more people breeding good quality registered dogs whether they show them or not and the only way to do that is to allow them to have access to good dogs and give them all the info and education and support we can.

I agree again with what you say, but I find it rather difficult to hand out pups to inexperienced people who wish to breed or show. I have done this and been caught. It has made me very cautious for ever after. Doesn't stop me selling or helping new people, but I have a lot more guidelines in place.

I believe that they need guidance from an experienced breeder or shower and the only way to ensure that the pup and in some cases the new owner gets a fair go is to keep the pup in both names till you feel sure all is well.

I also offer back up and guidance to the pet purchaser to.

I believe that most breeders that are genuine about their breed do the same.

We can all get caught at some stage but it makes you far more wary the next time. Like the old saying says, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Well in the main I agree however, I think sometimes the worst thing a new person can have is guidance from an experienced breeder or shower. All things are not equal and lets be honest - someone has mucked it up a bit havent they?

Again I agree....this is getting to be a habit I do believe that when you and I would have started in dogs it was a great deal different to what you see now days. It's a whole new Ball Game.

By the way people these words are coming from a person who has not bred a litter in over 3 years.

Yes I know many of you may believe that I just recently bred a litter but it did not eventuate that way.

[poodlefan]

Having heard some real horror stories about co-ownership, I would never co-own a dog.

I would crawl over broken glass and jump through any number of hoops for the RIGHT dog. I do think its easier with dogs than bitches though.

[dancinbcs]

Funnily with the GSD's I found, the most restrictive breeders had dogs of the least proven lines in show and work from my experiences for some reason and were ultra protective of a line that hadn't achieved anything

I find this in Border Collies as well. The first ones to sell everything on limit were newer breeders who had achieved nothing with their dogs, other than to produce puppies. A whole litter on limit does nothing for the future of the breed. Prior to this current trend, only the inferior puppies were sold on limit with anything considered show/breeding potential sold on main. That could be one or a few puppies from any given litter but usually not the whole litter. Unless you have imported a line of dogs, you do not own the line but are simply caretaking it for the future of the breed. Someone trusted you enough to share those lines and you have a responsibility to protect them but ultimately to pass them on. A few of the higher profile BC breeders are now more wary after being let down badly but most will still sell main register puppies to new people and help them get started in the breed.

As our breed is still in very big demand in China, many breeders are still wary of selling anything on main, outright to people they don't know. Keeping them in co-ownership prevents the puppy being on-sold to Asian dealers that often offer 10 times the original purchase price and some buyers find that hard to resist. These dealers also recruit nice looking families to buy for them, telling them all the right things to ask and hoodwinking the breeder. I know of several who have been caught out this way. Leaving the puppy in co-ownership until you get to know the buyer is about the only way to prevent this and still sell puppies on main register. In my breed this is often what co-ownership is for and once the buyer proves trustworthy the dog is sometimes signed over to them.

Co-ownership for breeders terms is a different thing entirely. It can work beautifully and benefit all parties if the breeder isn't greedy and does it for the right reasons. I believe puppies should be sold at full price (with or without co-ownership) to people you don't know and then if you make use of the dog down the track, the owners should be compensated. This avoids the problem of placing a dog on breeders terms (free or at a reduced price) and having the dog accidently killed due to owner negligence or their vet talking them into desexing the dog. Personally the biggest problem I have had is that almost every buyer wants to desex their dog asap so early desexing is not something I am interested in at all. If a dog is too valuable to your breeding program to risk this happening then don't sell it. Assuming all goes well and you want to use the dog. If it is a male, then the owners should be paid a stud fee if they paid full price for the dog. If it is a bitch and she is returned to you for a litter, the owners should have the purchase price refunded and/or get to keep a puppy from the litter.

I do know several very successful breeders that give their main register puppies away, sometimes in co-ownership, sometimes not, to get them in the ring and to keep around as breeding stock. Free males are required to be available for free studs to the breeder's own bitches and free bitches often come with the deal that they be returned for a litte or two. This is usually only to well established show homes that have proven themselves with other dogs but it is a very successful way to build up a reputation as a top show kennel, if you can afford to do it.

The other co-ownership that I have had success with several times is for the owners to have a litter under my prefix. If they are really keen, I put my prefix in dual names to breed the litter. This avoids them having to make the full commitment to being breeders until they decide if they really want to pursue it. For some, one litter is a nice experience but they don't want to do it again. For a few though it can be start of them becoming dedicated breeders but most don't realise they want to breed until they try it. What do I get out of it ? Another litter to keep my line going when I have neither the time or space to have many litters. In these cases the owners assume all the risks, pay the costs, raise the litter and keep all the money from the puppy sales. I find them a stud dog, organise the mating, be there for the whelping, find buyers for them, organise the registration, vaccination, microchipping, puppy notes, etc. If I want a puppy from the litter I pay them their direct outgoing costs for the puppy which is usually about 50%. I have had 7 litters under these conditions with 5 different owners and never had a problem with any of them. Two of the 5 have gone on to get their own prefix and successfully breed their own dogs.

The world of pure bred dogs needs more dedicated breeders. Sometimes you have to take a punt on someone. Will people let you down by desexing your pick of litter when their lives change. Yes. Will they sometimes do the wrong thing and breed to their friend's dog that isn't suitable. Yes. In the big scheme of things these are not major crimes. We do need to protect out puppies from ending up in puppy farms here or overseas, but other than that anyone reasonable that wants to join our ranks as dedicated ANKC registered breeders, should get our encouragement not our contempt.

[Steve]

Yep and sometimes different goals are good too. Doesnt matter what you are breeding toward as long as you dont compromise on what else you need to cover. When someone cant access a good dog to breed with they have no choice but to compromise if they still want to continue. Who is responsible for that the person who compromises or the people who gave them no choice? Alright to say if you dont like it move on but in some breeds moving on isnt an option if you still want to try and get it right.

What does it matter if everyone who breeds doesnt show as long as enough show to ensure there are animals available for breeding which pass the beauty contest?

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[BJean]

A lot of my pet inquiries are from Hawaii (easier to get a dog from Aust that mainland US due to thair quarantine requirements). The desexing is just one issue and we talk a lot about other things as well (yes I am in the process of considering vasectomy etc as an alternative as I am personally not fully comfortable with early desexing - though lots of Pyr breeders do and have done the procedure routinely in the US for around 20 years or so).

Then why are you asking your pet buyers overseas to be comfortable with it?

As the pup can't be shipped until around 11 weeks (ANKC rule) I offer a LOT in that period including individual socialization and early training and preparing the dog for its journey and life with its new family. Given that the 8 to 12 week period is a crucial one in this respect that is a LOT of work for a breeder to take on and one I wouldn't take on lightly. Frankly, if the potential owners dont like the package being offered and the early desexing is the reason why, I am happy for them to go elsewhere.

I don't understand the rational in this paragraph

Yes it's a lot of work to prepare a puppy for export. Are you saying that because of this the new home really shouldn't care about the desexing part, even though you yourself are not comfortable with it?

It's your choice okay to desex your baby puppies before a pet home overseas receive them

but you should not be surprised that the inquiring home "blows away" when they find out the puppy will be desexed beforehand. How is depriving pet homes who care enough about a quality Pyr enough to want to import one, of benefit to the breed? Potentially you lose another lifetime devotee to the Pyr. And one willing to invest in the breed. They are not a dime a dozen.

And if the enquiries are shonky they will go elsewhere anyway as a result.

But the assumption is that o/s pet homes are shonky because they do not accept a desexed Pyr puppy.

Would you import or recommend someone import a desexed Pyr puppy?

Pay $1000s extra for more risk and unknown?

I do know a breeder who quite a number of years ago now was scammed and the (main register) pup ended up in a Singapore petshop despite thinking she was placing it in a good home. Was only through a strange set of circumstances that she ever found out. I took that situation on board as a lesson.

It is unfortunate that negative stories / events can be the predominant shapers of an outlook.

Wouldn't it be great if someone in Hawaii started breeding awesome Pyr's and then Australia would have another source of Pyrs where quarantine was not as lengthy as France et al?

I wish someone would start breeding ASD in Hawaii, some great home that imported a pet then decided they wanted to breed, and so they imported more dogs from different countries and interesting bloodlines ...

It's not going to happen with my pets in Hawaii, as the home has desexed them

but if it can't happen for ASD, well then I hope it happens for Pyr! :D

Anyway I have gone way off topic from the OP

Edited June 4, 2011 by lilli

[Steve]

I sent a main registered Maremma to Hawaii last ltter to be used on a goat farm but also used for breeding. Maremmas are not recognised by the AKC.

[espinay2]

Lilli, frankly I don't know why I am being hauled over the coals because what I ask of potential puppy buyers is different from what you do. I have chosen a policy of advising potential owners that pets bound for overseas will be desexed based on my own risk/benefit assessment (which covers a lot more detail and breed background than I will go into here) and am happy with that policy. I have more breed enquiries for dogs than I can potentially fill in the near future and can pick and choose who I want. I have good people waiting for both pet and show/breeding dogs both here and overseas. Some first time owners and some more experienced. I offer what I offer (no this is not implying my terms are set in stone - I DISCUSS things with potential owners) and if someone decides that that is not what they want (whether it is in relation to our discussion on desexing or something else) they can go elsewhere. Just like I have a choice of who I potentially sell to, they have a choice of who they buy from. End of story.

Then why are you asking your pet buyers overseas to be comfortable with it?

Because based on my own risk/benefit analysis (which includes a range of considerations including knowledge of around 20 years of history on early desexing in my breed by breeders overseas) I am happy that this is at this point in time the best descision for me to make for my puppies. Naturally YMMV - doesn't make my decision wrong.

I don't understand the rational in this paragraph

All I was saying is that desexing is only one consideration. Potential owners need to weigh up for themselves the 'whole package' and compare what different breeders may be offering. If they are happier with what another breeder can offer overall I have no problem with them sourcing a dog elsewhere. They have that choice.

But the assumption is that o/s pet homes are shonky because they do not accept a desexed Pyr puppy.

Would you import or recommend someone import a desexed Pyr puppy?

Pay $1000s extra for more risk and unknown?

No I am not saying that at all. Over the last 20 years or so we have seen some 'shonky buyers' (a small breed community talks). The desexing provision has tended to head them off at the pass and I like that because I would rather spend time dealing with other things. All overseas pet homes are definitely not shonky and yes there are those that will and do import desexed pups.

Wouldn't it be great if someone in Hawaii started breeding awesome Pyr's and then Australia would have another source of Pyrs where quarantine was not as lengthy as France et al?

It is always lovely to see awesome Pyrs bred anywhere. And if people are interested in becoming seriously involved in the breed I am more than happy to help them out. This however does not change my personal policy on desexing pets.

[BJean]

Lilli, frankly I don't know why I am being hauled over the coals because what I ask of potential puppy buyers is different from what you do. I have chosen a policy of advising potential owners that pets bound for overseas will be desexed based on my own risk/benefit assessment (which covers a lot more detail and breed background than I will go into here) and am happy with that policy. I have more breed enquiries for dogs than I can potentially fill in the near future and can pick and choose who I want. I have good people waiting for both pet and show/breeding dogs both here and overseas. Some first time owners and some more experienced. I offer what I offer (no this is not implying my terms are set in stone - I DISCUSS things with potential owners) and if someone decides that that is not what they want (whether it is in relation to our discussion on desexing or something else) they can go elsewhere. Just like I have a choice of who I potentially sell to, they have a choice of who they buy from. End of story.

I guess the desexing of large breed puppies exported to pet homes o/s, or that pet homes o/s should accept this as best practise, surprises me (by best practise I mean that a breeder would recommend it to homes searching for a puppy or would do it themselves)

and I was/am fascinated by the psychology behind it - motivations, whys, hows etc

It's difficult for me to write this without it sounding like an attack or personal grilling, and that is regrettable, as it is not intended to be.

I would have asked any breeder of large breeds who said they only desex pets for export the same questions.

Edited June 4, 2011 by lilli

[Sayreovi]

But the next generation of exhibitor/breeders have to start somewhere. Like SSM, I know plenty of people with entire, Main Register dogs who haven't shafted the breeder or bred irresponsibly. I'm one of them.

Same here, though I hit a wall when trying to acquire my bitch after being in the breed for 7 years at the time and had titled my dogs in flyball and conformation, as I was told no one would sell me one outright as I had entire males at home (same breed) you know cause I might just breed them together over and over again. So starting out with males doesn't always work when some breeders are so close minded and silly. Good thing my male "that would never be used at stud by good breeders" was actually used at stud by what I consider good breeders who've actually got multiple titles front and back end on several dogs and the mating produced a bitch who I own fully.

I hope other breeds are more open to new people starting out breeding as the above attitude was disgusting to me.

[Rebanne]

What does it matter if everyone who breeds doesnt show as long as enough show to ensure there are animals available for breeding which pass the beauty contest?

nice

[espinay2]

It's difficult for me to write this without it sounding like an attack or personal grilling, and that is regrettable, as it is not intended to be.

It certainly comes across as a personal attack.

My decisions have been based on reasearch, including research of the practice in MY BREED. I am happy that what I am advising potential puppy buyers when they contact me is working for me. You are welcome to your own opinions, based on your own research and experience with your own breed. Not everyone is going to agree.

I provided a comment on this thread as SSM asked for people to give some ideas of what they do/their opinion. I certainly didnt expect the attack I got from sharing. I am usually pretty resilient and up for a discussion, but this wasn't a discussion....

Edited June 4, 2011 by espinay2