Selling Dogs

[espinay2]

SSM I have may particular philosophy and to a certain extent it may be a breed specific one. As a general rule I do a lot of talking to prospective owners. I advise them when they enquire initially that pets are sold on the limited register, what that means and that they must be desexed (depending on the email enquiry I may also say that the dog may be desexed before going to its new home).

In my questionnarie that prospective owners fill out it discusses desexing and asks the question if they will desex and if not, why not. If they have a good reason why not, we can discuss it further.

I do have those that say they want a pet dog or 'dog for the farm' but do not want to desex - generally my experience is these have come across in other areas as not being good candidates anyway (often they tend to be those that want a dog to breed with a dog of another breed or an unregistered dog of the same breed)

I have those that say they are willing to desex but want to wait until the dog is 12 months old and more mature so as not to inhibit growth etc. I am more than happy with this approach and happy to discuss this with them as personally would prefer the dog to mature a bit before desexing. In my experience these ones actually generally come across as good candidates in other areas as well. They seem to be the ones who have done their homework etc and/or are experienced pet owners with a good pet owning history.

I wont sell a pet dog overseas without it being desexed before it goes. This tends to blow away most of those enquiries when I mention those terms.

Dogs on main register I will only place on co-ownership if I have a suitable pup and only with those I have developed a good relationship with. The terms vary but are more so I can still be involved with the dog and provide input and encouragement. I am happy to discuss dogs on main register with those interested in showing etc but they have to be prepared to have me for a friend and be subject to some serious vetting! Sometimes depending on the person it may potentially end up being a more 'silent partner' relationship though - I have a similar relationship going the other way with another breeder and am happy with the arrangement.

Edited June 4, 2011 by espinay2

[Steve]

I wonder where all those who say "all desexed" or "all limit register" see the future generations of purebred dogs and breeders coming from.

I shudder to think of some breeds going out desexed as baby puppies and do wonder, given that there is research that links the practice to issues like HD about the liablility issues.

However in popular/valuable breeds, vasectomy or tubal ligation are procedures that IMO should be more popular than they are now.

Perhaps it comes down to discussion/negotiation with the buyers. If the pup is to be pet only then limit register is appropriate. Perhaps co-ownership of any first Main Register dogs going to new buyers until you see if they honour their undertakings.

But the next generation of exhibitor/breeders have to start somewhere. Like SSM, I know plenty of people with entire, Main Register dogs who haven't shafted the breeder or bred irresponsibly. I'm one of them.

Yep and just because a dog is desexed and not used for breeding doesnt mean it doesnt live a life of misery anyway. This isnt about what is best for the breeds its about ego and control it has bought us to a point that unless we wake up we will have no one else to blame but ourselves for the demise of the purebred dog world as we know it because We have followed on behind animal rights and bought into it hook line and sinker

[BJean]

I wont sell a pet dog overseas without it being desexed before it goes. This tends to blow away most of those enquiries when I mention those terms.

You have sold desexed puppies overseas?

[jacqui835]

I believe that if we truly do have the integrity of the breed at heart that we would allow our dogs to go out without restriction for breeding to those who want a breeding dog.

I believe that id someone says they may want to breed even if they dont want to show that they should be sold a dog outright which the breeder considers will do no harm to the breed.

We have limited the gene pools by our controlling methods to a point where some breeds are in real danger and while that may make the breeder feel they can control what is going on in my opinion its placed in a position we didnt need to be in.

There are 33000 members of the ANKC and of them Australia wide only 4 and a half thousand are breeders - we are a dying race. Not much point in having a great "line" if it dies out when you do.

Excellent post, and conveys many of my fears too.

[BJean]

I wonder where all those who say "all desexed" or "all limit register" see the future generations of purebred dogs and breeders coming from.

I shudder to think of some breeds going out desexed as baby puppies and do wonder, given that there is research that links the practice to issues like HD about the liablility issues.

However in popular/valuable breeds, vasectomy or tubal ligation are procedures that IMO should be more popular than they are now.

Perhaps it comes down to discussion/negotiation with the buyers. If the pup is to be pet only then limit register is appropriate. Perhaps co-ownership of any first Main Register dogs going to new buyers until you see if they honour their undertakings.

But the next generation of exhibitor/breeders have to start somewhere. Like SSM, I know plenty of people with entire, Main Register dogs who haven't shafted the breeder or bred irresponsibly. I'm one of them.

Yep and just because a dog is desexed and not used for breeding doesnt mean it doesnt live a life of misery anyway. This isnt about what is best for the breeds its about ego and control it has bought us to a point that unless we wake up we will have no one else to blame but ourselves for the demise of the purebred dog world as we know it because We have followed on behind animal rights and bought into it hook line and sinker

Yes

[poodlefan]

Yep and just because a dog is desexed and not used for breeding doesnt mean it doesnt live a life of misery anyway. This isnt about what is best for the breeds its about ego and control it has bought us to a point that unless we wake up we will have no one else to blame but ourselves for the demise of the purebred dog world as we know it because We have followed on behind animal rights and bought into it hook line and sinker

I do think ego plays a part where some breeders seek to totally control access to their lines with limit register and desexing. Sadly, this practice will see many lines become extinct when the breeder stops breeding. Some don't care but I think its an incredibly short sighted attitude.

I've posted this before but Bo Bengston (of Boehme Whippets in USA), when interviewed about his contribution to the breed said that the achievement he was most proud of was that 46 Whippet exhibitors got their first Championship title with a dog from his prefix. That's 46 times he took a punt on a newbie in the breed. He is not a prolific breeder.

There would probably be only a handful of breeders here that would come close to that. My guess is that many have NEVER had a new exhibitor make a a championship on one of their dogs.

Edited June 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[cowanbree]

O.K. so how will you enforce a desexing contract? And suggesting selling puppies to those who want to breed doesnt mean you are still not going to be discrimminatory about who you sell to. It doesnt mean you just sell them to idiots or puppy farmers.

You place just as much risk on selling to a registered show breeder as you do to anyone else. Im not suggesting we sell breeding dogs to just anyone - just more than we do now and with less conditions than we do now.

I have enforced my contract in court. My pet puppies will be desexed.

I wouldn't sell to a lot of show homes. While my aim is the betterment of the breed my main concern is the welfare of my puppies so I sell to the homes that have compatible views with me. And yes I have still been burnt by a fellow breeder using a puppy I sold them prior to health tested. Have learnt from that now, anything sold for breeding regardless of how long I have known the person goes out with endorsements requiring health testing prior to breeding or the puppies are not registered.

In the end all we can do is our best and learn from our mistakes, unfortunately sometimes that is at the detriment of a puppy

[Mystiqview]

Steve. When I got my first purebred. It was on Mains. I was not interested in breeding, and it was desexed in due course. My second dog, I kinda thought about it, showed her.. and went no.. I was sold a dupe (temperament) and desexed her. Likewise for my third bitch, and looking back and the cancer she developed at the tender age of 5, I am glad I never bred her. Despite being a damn good obedience dog.

Husbandry to me, is common sense. I keep a clean (not sterile) household. I grew up on a small crop/dairy, so knew basic husbandry from that. To me, if you keep animals, you keep them properly. If you breed, then you do the right thing. CCC or legislation be dammned.. you do the right thing. It is common sense. More in my mind now due to Litigation if you breed a problem as has seen in my breed already.

For the Contract/Breeders Term Question:

I have done this once on the last litter where I stashed a female. I charged full price for my puppy. IF I use it in breeding, I PAY for health tests as if the dog stayed here, it would be my expense anyway. I only REALLY ask they keep the dog as if they were keeping any pet.. Regular vacinations, worming, general vet care as needed - Normal pet ownership stuff. Anything associated with breeding is my expense. (As if would be if I owned the dog).

I have also in fairness to them, put a limit on how long the dog MUST be retained whole. I will assess the dog around 18 months. If still looking good, then I will health test and breed her sometime in the next 12 months (season dependant). I am more than happy for them to keep the dog there during pregnancy with her coming back to me 2 weeks prior to whelping. She will whelp here and stay here with me for at leat the first 10 days (incase there is a problem). I am happy then with guidance, for them to go back there and pay raising costs of the litter. I would of course prefer to keep them here, but if they REALLY want their family member back.. then I am happy enough to work with them. As "THANKS" to holding the bitch for me for this time, I have agreed to either refund purchase price of bitch or givem them a puppy from the litter. They will get their dog back as well.

THe only reason I charge full price up front.. If in 6 months or so, they desex the dog.. They have paid for their pet and got their pet. NO one is out of pocket.

Personally. I think co-own contracts need to be fair.. No double dipping by the breder. IF the dog is THAT THAT important, then find a way to keep it yourself!

I advise any puppy buyer who contacts me about a puppy.. to make sure what ever contract a breeder gives them, to make sure they are happy with the conditions before going ahead. If not.. find another breeder.

[Steve]

My Maremmas are first and foremost working dogs

.Im more interested in how they work and their health than I am on how they go in the show ring. Now and then someone takes one for the show ring and I havent had one yet which has gone into the ring which didnt do me proud not only in the ring but also in the paddock. If they can work all week and come out and do great in the ring on weekends Im a happy girl.

I have someone who has bought a boy from this current litter who was pretty frustrated by the time he got to me because he wasnt able to buy a main registered pup which he could maybe breed one day. He is going to use it for an organic chicken farm and thinks he may want to breed in a couple of years and didnt want to close his optionsas he wanted to do it right if he does go that way. Definitely wont be showing .He is getting my litter pick and free membership to the MDBA and if he does decide to breed in a couple of years Ill be there to help him. He could have lied to me - told me he wanted a working dog and bred it anyway.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[poodlefan]

I'll give another example of how selling entire can benefit the breed. A good friend of mine bought her first pet Whippet from a well known Australian whippet breeder. Pup was sold entire and co-owned by breeder.

Six months later, pup and owner visit breeder. Breeder is blown away. Would owner consider showing puppy? Yep.

So owner and pup embark on a show career. That pup is now a 2500 point Grand Champion who has made a significant contribution to the breed as a sire.

I appeciate that breeders want to protect against irresponsible breeding and have the welfare of their dogs in mind. But that has to be balanced against the risk that over zealous protection will see the line become extinct and remove a lot of potentially valuable dogs from the gene pool at the get go.

Its all very well and good to say "I dont' want Breeder X getting hold of my lines because their dogs are shite". How on earth does Breeder X IMPROVE their dogs if no one will sell them anything decent or allow their stud dog to be used.

Edited June 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Steve]

O.K. so how will you enforce a desexing contract? And suggesting selling puppies to those who want to breed doesnt mean you are still not going to be discrimminatory about who you sell to. It doesnt mean you just sell them to idiots or puppy farmers.

You place just as much risk on selling to a registered show breeder as you do to anyone else. Im not suggesting we sell breeding dogs to just anyone - just more than we do now and with less conditions than we do now.

I have enforced my contract in court. My pet puppies will be desexed.

I wouldn't sell to a lot of show homes. While my aim is the betterment of the breed my main concern is the welfare of my puppies so I sell to the homes that have compatible views with me. And yes I have still been burnt by a fellow breeder using a puppy I sold them prior to health tested. Have learnt from that now, anything sold for breeding regardless of how long I have known the person goes out with endorsements requiring health testing prior to breeding or the puppies are not registered.

In the end all we can do is our best and learn from our mistakes, unfortunately sometimes that is at the detriment of a puppy

How have you enforced it in court? Contract law says you cant make someone promise to do something with their property after it is their property. In the end all we can do is work out that once that dog goes home we cant control what the owner does with it and registered breeders are just as capable if not MORE capable fo mucking it up as anyone.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Steve

[Sunnyflower]

For the Contract/Breeders Term Question:

I have done this once on the last litter where I stashed a female. I charged full price for my puppy. IF I use it in breeding, I PAY for health tests as if the dog stayed here, it would be my expense anyway. I only REALLY ask they keep the dog as if they were keeping any pet.. Regular vacinations, worming, general vet care as needed - Normal pet ownership stuff. Anything associated with breeding is my expense. (As if would be if I owned the dog).

I have also in fairness to them, put a limit on how long the dog MUST be retained whole. I will assess the dog around 18 months. If still looking good, then I will health test and breed her sometime in the next 12 months (season dependant). I am more than happy for them to keep the dog there during pregnancy with her coming back to me 2 weeks prior to whelping. She will whelp here and stay here with me for at leat the first 10 days (incase there is a problem). I am happy then with guidance, for them to go back there and pay raising costs of the litter. I would of course prefer to keep them here, but if they REALLY want their family member back.. then I am happy enough to work with them. As "THANKS" to holding the bitch for me for this time, I have agreed to either refund purchase price of bitch or givem them a puppy from the litter. They will get their dog back as well.

THe only reason I charge full price up front.. If in 6 months or so, they desex the dog.. They have paid for their pet and got their pet. NO one is out of pocket.

Personally. I think co-own contracts need to be fair.. No double dipping by the breder. IF the dog is THAT THAT important, then find a way to keep it yourself!

I advise any puppy buyer who contacts me about a puppy.. to make sure what ever contract a breeder gives them, to make sure they are happy with the conditions before going ahead. If not.. find another breeder.

Thank you for this MV. This is very informative and if we were to go down the Breeder Terms line this to me is completely fair and I would be more than happy to do something like this, however my concern was that the dog had to remain entire for his life and we had to pay for all relevant health testing yet we got nothing out of them potentially using the dog.

This is great information and something we will keep in the back of our minds if it ever presents itself again.

[WreckitWhippet]

I'm one that would rather have the line or bitch die with me, than have progeny be used for for BYBing or splashed about the country side willy nilly. Just because I have something super and special come my way, doesn't mean I need to share it around.

[Gayle.]

My first bitch was sold to me on main register, no strings attached. I showed her for a while and had a bit of fun doing that, now she's retired from showing but I could breed her if I want to. But I don't want to, so she'll probably be desexed as dealing with seasons with an entire male in the pack is not something I'm keen to do for the rest of her life.

My second dog is on breeders terms and he was given to me, not sold to me. He is from the same breeder as my bitch. He lives a fabulous life here, being treated like the little prince he believes himself to be, he is my beautiful, beautiful boy and when he's done his job for his breeder, he'll continue to live the good life with me.

I would not pay for a dog on breeders terms, if the breeder wants the dog stashed in a home where it can live a nice life and be accessible to them for breeding, they shouldn't be selling it.

On a side note, my rescue girl was desexed as a baby puppy, at about 8 weeks, I believe. When she first came to us, she was clipped right back so it was hard to tell what her coat would be like....whether the early desexing had affected it or not. It's grown now, and it's beautiful.......just how an Aussies coat should be. Her growth does not seem to have suffered in any way from early desexing....she is tiny (and apparently so was her mother), and has the most stunning head, a lovely gait and it altogether a very nice girl. Her major fault is a congenital eye problem...nothing whatsoever to do with being desexed.

My first dog was desexed early as well, and his growth and development does not seem to have been affected. He's a lovely boy and draws plenty of admiring comments from those who know the breed, so I expect it's hard to tell that he's a neuter.

[cowanbree]

O.K. so how will you enforce a desexing contract? And suggesting selling puppies to those who want to breed doesnt mean you are still not going to be discrimminatory about who you sell to. It doesnt mean you just sell them to idiots or puppy farmers.

You place just as much risk on selling to a registered show breeder as you do to anyone else. Im not suggesting we sell breeding dogs to just anyone - just more than we do now and with less conditions than we do now.

I have enforced my contract in court. My pet puppies will be desexed.

I wouldn't sell to a lot of show homes. While my aim is the betterment of the breed my main concern is the welfare of my puppies so I sell to the homes that have compatible views with me. And yes I have still been burnt by a fellow breeder using a puppy I sold them prior to health tested. Have learnt from that now, anything sold for breeding regardless of how long I have known the person goes out with endorsements requiring health testing prior to breeding or the puppies are not registered.

In the end all we can do is our best and learn from our mistakes, unfortunately sometimes that is at the detriment of a puppy

How have you enforced it in court? Contract law says you cant make someone promise to do something with their property after it is their property. In the end all we can do is work out that once that dog goes home we cant control what the owner does with it and registered breeders are just as capable if not MORE capable fo mucking it up as anyone.

I am in NZ so maybe it is slightly different but my contract was upheld in the small claims and I could have taken my dog back. Ended up letting them keep her after she was desexed but I also know of a breeder who has uplifted the dog through the courts. It is all about having a clear understandable condition and repercussion. Buying a pet only, she will be desexed by x time or ownership reverts back to the breeder. Just saying she must be desexed isn't good enough.

[poodlefan]

I'm one that would rather have the line or bitch die with me, than have progeny be used for for BYBing or splashed about the country side willy nilly. Just because I have something super and special come my way, doesn't mean I need to share it around.

I reckon there's room between either of those options for both breeder and breed to benefit.

[BJean]

Its all very well and good to say "I dont' want Breeder X getting hold of my lines because their dogs are shite". How on earth does Breeder X IMPROVE their dogs if no one will sell them anything decent or allow their stud dog to be used.

I don't know. I haven't a solution for the problem. In this scenario, I am with RSG.

I cannot ignore a breeder's way and share lineages 'for the benefit of the breed'; maybe I am too Croat who knows -

but if I don't agree with a breeder's ethos, then 'benefit for the breed' doesn't matter.

I have to keep myself sane also.

Edited June 4, 2011 by lilli

[Steve]

I'll give another example of how selling entire can benefit the breed. A good friend of mine bought her first pet Whippet from a well known Australian whippet breeder. Pup was sold entire and co-owned by breeder.

Six months later, pup and owner visit breeder. Breeder is blown away. Would owner consider showing puppy? Yep.

So owner and pup embark on a show career. That pup is now a 2500 point Grand Champion who has made a significant contribution to the breed as a sire.

I appeciate that breeders want to protect against irresponsible breeding and have the welfare of their dogs in mind. But that has to be balanced against the risk that over zealous protection will see the line become extinct and remove a lot of potentially valuable dogs from the gene pool at the get go.

Its all very well and good to say "I dont' want Breeder X getting hold of my lines because their dogs are shite". How on earth does Breeder X IMPROVE their dogs if no one will sell them anything decent or allow their stud dog to be used.

Definitely. I have bred several champions which were never intended for the ring at the time of sale. One beautiful girl and later a male went to a pet home. The owner said she wanted to have a go in the ring so I changed the papers over and I bought two puppies from them when they became champions and she decided to breed them. Looks very nice on my pedigrees- my prefix titled on both Mum and Dad . Ive also been able to use dogs which went out with main papers for stud and purchased puppies from people who bred my puppies to champion dogs. No need for contracts or conditions - Its called staying in touch and respect.

[espinay2]

I wont sell a pet dog overseas without it being desexed before it goes. This tends to blow away most of those enquiries when I mention those terms.

You have sold desexed puppies overseas?

Nope. Not at this point. Quite a few enquiries though!

[Pudel]

Poodlefan, I am often in awe at the simple practicality of your posts. Steve I found your post very thought provoking. We have a standard poodle, she is desexed, but we did not have to desex her. Theat was our choice. We are getting a male CCR pup soon he will be desexed,on maturity, again our choice. We don't want to breed, we dont want the hassle of breeding, and the show ring, naah not us. We chose our dogs breed as the breed had characteristics we wanted. My hubby is a vet and his rule of thumb is if you are not showing or breeding then desex the dog. His other belief is don't buy a popular breed. Popular breeds tend to attract the puppy farmers and BYBs. As a breed becomes popular the health issues increase, as people breed them for the dollars not the heart. Dalmatians after 101 dalmatians came out were an example,read the papers and every third litter for sale was a dally. There are not enough reputable breeders for that to happen.