Selling Dogs

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I nearly posted this in breeders but thought it might be good to get a wider view.

It seems like there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling pure breed dogs.

One is that no-one can be trusted fully to do the right thing, and that pups should be sold desexed, with a vasectomy or when sold to show homes, on joint terms with a contract that aims to prevent the purchaser from doing anything without the consent of the breeder.

The other school of thought is that you do your best to vet people, but you sell outright and entire.

What do you think?

Each have their pro and con arguments but I thought I would put the question first without putting the arguments.

[bedazzledx2]

From a selfish point of view I want to pay proper price and the dog is mine without any terms or conditions! :D I can understand breeders concerns about their lines and the potential for unsuitable breeding but I think vetting potential homes should go a way to get the best outcomes.

I nearly posted this in breeders but thought it might be good to get a wider view.

It seems like there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling pure breed dogs.

One is that no-one can be trusted fully to do the right thing, and that pups should be sold desexed, with a vasectomy or when sold to show homes, on joint terms with a contract that aims to prevent the purchaser from doing anything without the consent of the breeder.

The other school of thought is that you do your best to vet people, but you sell outright and entire.

What do you think?

Each have their pro and con arguments but I thought I would put the question first without putting the arguments.

[JoeK]

From a selfish point of view I want to pay proper price and the dog is mine without any terms or conditions! :D I can understand breeders concerns about their lines and the potential for unsuitable breeding but I think vetting potential homes should go a way to get the best outcomes.

I nearly posted this in breeders but thought it might be good to get a wider view.

It seems like there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling pure breed dogs.

One is that no-one can be trusted fully to do the right thing, and that pups should be sold desexed, with a vasectomy or when sold to show homes, on joint terms with a contract that aims to prevent the purchaser from doing anything without the consent of the breeder.

The other school of thought is that you do your best to vet people, but you sell outright and entire.

What do you think?

Each have their pro and con arguments but I thought I would put the question first without putting the arguments.

My opinion for this is if the breeders is not trusting of the buyer to do the right thing with the breeding, hows the breeder trusting the buyer to feed the dog and look after it properly? If the buyer is not trustworthy, breeder shouldnt be selling to that buyer.

Joe

[Mystiqview]

I have known too many people have been cheated, lied to and had dogs "stolen" by other breeders, puppy buyers etc.

Just have a look at my breed's puppy listings and you can see why it is so hard to trust people at their word. Their word means nothing!!!

A dog does not work out - the breeder is slammed for selling them a dud

The dog/bitch does work out, the bitch is then bred and bred and bred... The dog is studded to everything in their yard and everyone else's.

No thought/planning or research is done to breeding programs. The importance has gone from structure/temperament to "what colour does it carry?". Out the window has gone "betterment of the breed" and in comes "how much money can I make"

People who do not show or compete in any activity are pumping out puppies and then claiming they are "show quality", whereas if they actually stepped foot in a show ring, they MAY just realise how far from show quality their dogs actually are.

Little consideration is being given to the genetic health of the animals that are being bred. Dogs are NOT fully health tested, they may be "clear by parent" for one or two, or at minimum, have tested for one or two. But not hip or elbow scored, and Mange, deafness, epilepsy, HD, OCD or immune issues are not there because they raise their puppies by a "natual diet".

Even when a problem is identified, they continue to breed the animal, passing on more defective genes - AND selling those dogs to other "NEW" breeders, saying "there are no problems in my line". Generations down the track, it rears its head again.. "oops"

I do not desex my puppies before they leave me at 8 weeks. I do vet VERY carefully. I also sell EVERYTHING on LIMIT, as I don't breed for the general populace. I breed for myself and find loving PET homes for the others. I have stashed one or two animals for possible future plans. They are in CO-OWN.. NO EXCEPTIONS!

[RallyValley]

There are many breeders out there that are a medium between your two options. I think both options you mention are dangerous to the future of a breed.

[tdierikx]

If I were buying a dog to show and I am a beginner in such things, I'd probably be happy enough to have the breeder mentor me in that pursuit - up to a point...

Any agreement that has me (the owner of the dog) being dictated to as to how I raise or care for that dog, outside of showing it to it's best potential, would have me backing off a bit from that particular breeder - it comes across as me having to pay for the privilege to "babysit" (at MY expense) someone else's dog...

Vetting of potential homes is no easy task, but if you are really that precious about where your pups are going, then maybe you should breed less of them and only sell them to others you know and trust, and who really want to do everything with the dog that you would do if it were yours...

Anyways - are the "breeder's terms" conditions legal and enforceable?

T.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

There are many breeders out there that are a medium between your two options. I think both options you mention are dangerous to the future of a breed.

What are the solutions that you think work best?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Anyways - are the "breeder's terms" conditions legal and enforceable?

Depends how much $$$ you have and how well the contract was written. I also think it depends on your "weight" in show world and whether you are contracting with people who are fundamentally decent or concerned about their reputation. Those people will follow the contract, but might not have done the same thing without a contract.

I think it's the joint names that has the most effect - if you have a dog in co-ownership, and your co-owner won't sign the form for a litter registration, you can't breed on with them and register them. You can BYB of course (and some other stuff I won't go into here).

[warval dobe]

For myself, I would hate to buy a dog only to have a set of conditions outlined. However, it is hard to blame a breeder for imposing some conditions. If you are a good breeder then naturally you care about the welfare of your puppies and where they go. I think that each case is probably different and you can only go on "gut feeling".

[RallyValley]

Sigh I just wrote a long reply to you SSM and then my computer ate it. So here is the abbreviated version.

I think the best solution is to be careful but have faith. After all how does anyone get thier first dog? All breeders here had someone have that faith in them to start with.

If the person had intentions to show/ compete in sports ect sell the dog on main but tick those boxes on the back in relation to health testing, age of breeding ect. Not much of a solution is it ;)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think - no that I'm going to be a breeder - but if I felt the dog was not suitable for breeding (eg genetic problems) I would only allow her to be rehomed desexed. If I felt the dog was suitable for breeding but I didn't want to keep then I'd negotiate with the buyer. Maybe sell with a surcharge that could be refunded on proof of desex (eg ear tattoo and vet letter). And I'd definitely provide written and verbal information on managing an entire dog/bitch. Ie that there is the pill available. What do do if the dog comes in season. How to manage for dogs balls problems (cancer) and costs and mess involved with breeding.

And if I wanted to be in good with ANKC, I guess I'd expect the buyer to join an affiliate (Eg SACA) before buying the puppy.

[oakway]

I have known too many people have been cheated, lied to and had dogs "stolen" by other breeders, puppy buyers etc.

Just have a look at my breed's puppy listings and you can see why it is so hard to trust people at their word. Their word means nothing!!!

A dog does not work out - the breeder is slammed for selling them a dud

The dog/bitch does work out, the bitch is then bred and bred and bred... The dog is studded to everything in their yard and everyone else's.

No thought/planning or research is done to breeding programs. The importance has gone from structure/temperament to "what colour does it carry?". Out the window has gone "betterment of the breed" and in comes "how much money can I make"

People who do not show or compete in any activity are pumping out puppies and then claiming they are "show quality", whereas if they actually stepped foot in a show ring, they MAY just realise how far from show quality their dogs actually are.

Little consideration is being given to the genetic health of the animals that are being bred. Dogs are NOT fully health tested, they may be "clear by parent" for one or two, or at minimum, have tested for one or two. But not hip or elbow scored, and Mange, deafness, epilepsy, HD, OCD or immune issues are not there because they raise their puppies by a "natual diet".

Even when a problem is identified, they continue to breed the animal, passing on more defective genes - AND selling those dogs to other "NEW" breeders, saying "there are no problems in my line". Generations down the track, it rears its head again.. "oops"

I do not desex my puppies before they leave me at 8 weeks. I do vet VERY carefully. I also sell EVERYTHING on LIMIT, as I don't breed for the general populace. I breed for myself and find loving PET homes for the others. I have stashed one or two animals for possible future plans. They are in CO-OWN.. NO EXCEPTIONS!

Aint that the truth.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think the best solution is to be careful but have faith. After all how does anyone get thier first dog? All breeders here had someone have that faith in them to start with.

If the person had intentions to show/ compete in sports ect sell the dog on main but tick those boxes on the back in relation to health testing, age of breeding ect. Not much of a solution is it ;)

This is the tricky thing. My first dog was an entire bitch and was sold outright to me. At the time I bought her I had no idea how lucky I was that someone reputable was prepared to sell an entire bitch to me outright. The breeder was concerned about early desexing which is why the bitch was entire - I remember her telling me it was up to me if when I desexed her, and she was also really helpful when the bitch had her first season and gave me lots of advice and support.

We wanted a bitch because we already had a dog. He was a similar breed, and we had desexed him at 11 months and taken him to obedience class. FWIW, I never bred the bitch, but also never desexed her. The bit I am puzzling over is that I am not particularly special, a lot of people in my friendship group have had entire animals that they have kept responsibly. I have also heard a lot of horror stories tho'. I wonder what our characteristics are, because I'd like to pick them for my future puppy owners!

[Mystiqview]

Even as a breeder/exhibitor..

I prefer my puppies go into pet homes where the only expectation is a well behaved and loved companion. While I do show, my dogs are family pets first and foremost.

As there is only ONE winner in showing... the expectations are high, and it gets very disheartening to keep losing when you start out. I know it... been there. I still lose more than I win, but I also think I am getting better the more I get out there. It is worse to be sold a dog whom you believe and bought in good faith, to realise when you get there.. it is a far cry from a show dog..

Only one of my puppies (and I only breed maybe one litter/year) is on Main Register and that is to a good friend/fellow breeder whom I trust and know very well. The rest have been Limit and into loving pet homes, and there have been no regrets to where they have gone.

[Greytmate]

I nearly posted this in breeders but thought it might be good to get a wider view.

It seems like there are two schools of thought when it comes to selling pure breed dogs.

One is that no-one can be trusted fully to do the right thing, and that pups should be sold desexed, with a vasectomy or when sold to show homes, on joint terms with a contract that aims to prevent the purchaser from doing anything without the consent of the breeder.

The other school of thought is that you do your best to vet people, but you sell outright and entire.

What do you think?

Each have their pro and con arguments but I thought I would put the question first without putting the arguments.

It depends on the dog. Either it is potentially good enough to breed from, or it should be desexed. Then you find the right home for each dog.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It depends on the dog. Either it is potentially good enough to breed from, or it should be desexed. Then you find the right home for each dog.

Would you desex a Grey at 8-12 weeks tho'? Or is it that if a dog is not good enough to breed from, they are therefore not good enough for show or dog sport, so the side effects of early desexing aren't as important as keeping them out of the gene pool? I say that with kindness btw, being a companion is an important role.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My ACDx was desexed at 8 weeks. She's 2.5 years old now, and I've not noticed any issues. But I'm just one anecdote - not a scientific study.

[jacqui835]

It depends on the dog. Either it is potentially good enough to breed from, or it should be desexed. Then you find the right home for each dog.

Would you desex a Grey at 8-12 weeks tho'? Or is it that if a dog is not good enough to breed from, they are therefore not good enough for show or dog sport, so the side effects of early desexing aren't as important as keeping them out of the gene pool? I say that with kindness btw, being a companion is an important role.

I will support initiatives to screen people before they get pets - issue licenses or something. But I will never support mandatory desexing. It changes your dog dramatically, and I am personally not a fan of a the desexed dog. I managed to talk my sister into desexing her papillons, when previously they had considered breeding from them. Their male is completely unrecognisable. Desexed as an adult, he has since gained a lot of weight, lost almost all his drive and become lazy. His fur lost some of its beauty and is 'fluffier' - this is probably the part they dislike most. The female was desexed at 6 months, and is just a lot leggier than the male. She has always been lazy and fat so we don't know what her personality would have been like otherwise. Desexing was the right decision for them though, because they didn't bother with training, and a desexed fat lazy dog is much easier to handle.

I'm sure not all dogs react so strongly to being desexed, and maybe through reducing their food substantially (compared to entire dogs) and forcing them to exercise, you can reduce the physical effects. But the male papillon used to want to go for bike rides and 10km runs with his owner. He likes his walks still, but has no urge to go on adventures with the pack, and is content with a walk around the block. If his owner pulls out his bike, the dog runs to the end of the street, and then turns around and goes home. This all changed within a couple of weeks/months of him being desexed.

People just need to screen the homes they send their dogs to, not change the dogs themselves.

[Sayreovi]

I will support initiatives to screen people before they get pets - issue licenses or something. But I will never support mandatory desexing. It changes your dog dramatically, and I am personally not a fan of a the desexed dog. I managed to talk my sister into desexing her papillons, when previously they had considered breeding from them. Their male is completely unrecognisable. Desexed as an adult, he has since gained a lot of weight, lost almost all his drive and become lazy. His fur lost some of its beauty and is 'fluffier' - this is probably the part they dislike most. The female was desexed at 6 months, and is just a lot leggier than the male. She has always been lazy and fat so we don't know what her personality would have been like otherwise. Desexing was the right decision for them though, because they didn't bother with training, and a desexed fat lazy dog is much easier to handle.

Desexing does not make a fat lazy dog, people who overfeed their dog make it fat. They need to reduce the amount of food the dogs are getting and up the exercise, alot of dogs are only as active as their owners make them ;) Probably doesn't want to do alot of exercise because it is fat and gets tired quicker.

Coats are another matter altogether

Hopefully I will be having a litter next year or the year after and I am still unsure of how I want them to go, in a breed (in Australia) where there is very few choices the idea of having a few entire dogs in pet homes is appealing. My first Toller (and first purebred!) was on a co-ownership and it got me into the breed, my others are all owned outright.

Edited June 3, 2011 by tollersowned

[Rebanne]

It depends on the dog. Either it is potentially good enough to breed from, or it should be desexed. Then you find the right home for each dog.

Would you desex a Grey at 8-12 weeks tho'?

I wouldn't. They grow fast enough as it is which increases the risk of joint/bone problems, you don't need to add to it.