Hd On A Pup Who Is Only 16 Weeks Old?

[espinay2]

I agree that this is becoming all too common. The things that trouble me the most are the following:

Vets that are not specialist radiologists are reading the x-rays and making the recommendations. The recommendations are being made on pups that are as young as 16weeks -when it is well recognised that it is NOT possible to read x-raysat that age and know how healthy the hips are. The x-rays can NOT be read using the Willis system at this age (or any other international system such as OFA). The ONLY system which has any real possibility of giving a prediction of future hip health at this age is Penn HIP - these require a personspecifically trained in thismethod to x-ray (as they require three very specific x-rays, two of which are different from those normally taken) and they MUST be sent to the US to be read by specialist readers. NO ONE in Australia can read PennHIP x-rays!! Any vet who can tell you that they can read hip x-rays on a 16 week old pup and know what the hips are/will be like is one to run a mile from as they are (IMO) blowing it out their ear.

Most of the vets that are recommending the procedure are pressing their clients with a sense of urgency that they MUST do it now or their dog will suffer. The procedure is sold in a manner where owners are made to feel guilty if they dont get it done 'for the good of their dog'. This is real pressure selling and IMO highly unethical when it comes to such an elective procedure (this is NOT an emergency!!!).

The recommendation to get the procedure done is also often made 'just in case' regardless of any actual need. Once done there is no way of knowing if the dog would have developed HD or not.

The surgery is not cheap - we are talking several thousands of dollars.

I have no problem with surgery on a dog where this is found to be warranted following specialist diagnosis. But all the above for me just smacks of shonky pressure selling which is taking advantage of peoples vulnerabilities. Honestly, the practice has me so worried that I have found myself writing an article for puppy packs to warn new potential owners of the practice and what they should do if they get the 'hard sell'!! The practice is just not on as far as I am concerned.

[sandgrubber]

I'm as bothered by people's haste to judge a vet based on little information as I am by the possibility of a vet recommending unnecessary surgery. Shame on those who cry shame.

Early diagnosis and treatment is often better than letting it run and seeing if a problem develops. I agree, from what Ernie's said, it would be good to seek a second opinion . . . a wise move on most non-emergency major surgery. And I don't doubt that there are some vets who milk their clients by prescribing unnecessary surgery in the guise of prevention. But we don't know the facts here. Perhaps the pup IS symptomatic but the owners aren't skilled enough to see an altered gait that isn't a classical limp. In my experience, pups that hurt often don't limp, they simply avoid exercise. We don't know.

Edited May 31, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Diva]

I'm as bothered by people's haste to judge a vet based on little information as I am by the possibility of a vet recommending unnecessary surgery. Shame on those who cry shame.

Not many posters have cried shame, but most of us have advised a high degree of caution. And for very good reason given the stories I have heard about the way this procedure is being pushed.

It may be necessary for this dog, but I think we all agree that a second opinion would be a very wise move before doing anything.

[dancinbcs]

I'm as bothered by people's haste to judge a vet based on little information as I am by the possibility of a vet recommending unnecessary surgery. Shame on those who cry shame.

Early diagnosis and treatment is often better than letting it run and seeing if a problem develops. I agree, from what Ernie's said, it would be good to seek a second opinion . . . a wise move on most non-emergency major surgery. And I don't doubt that there are some vets who milk their clients by prescribing unnecessary surgery in the guise of prevention. But we don't know the facts here. Perhaps the pup IS symptomatic but the owners aren't skilled enough to see an altered gait that isn't a classical limp. In my experience, pups that hurt often don't limp, they simply avoid exercise. We don't know.

Maybe the puppy is symptomatic but the vet lied about the incidence of HD in the breed and then took x-rays that couldn't possibly have been of any use. This is not the way to diagnose hip problems at that age and any good vet knows it.

[gwp4me]

I had a vet at Batemans Bay recommend this surgery to a puppy owner without even doing an Xray, diagnosis was on "the way he walked" What an incompetent moron.

Luckily the puppy owner was my brother, who is no fool. He rang me to tell me what they had said but had already told the vet to go jump. When I saw the pup 2 weeks later, I saw a typical hocky GSD pup where all of the running bones had grown and put him all out of proportion. He is now a happy 18 month old with no hip issues and will be xrayed for his A and Z stamps very soon.

I also know of another breeder who went through this crap with a puppy buyer, luckily they also sensibly declined the surgery. When the pup was 12 months, he was assessed under the GSDCA Hip Scheme and received a very low score that got him his A stamp. Just think what pain and suffering this puppy could have been put through unnecessarily, not to mention the $6000 bill for the puppy owners.

Vets that recommend this surgery should be reported to the AVA and publicly shamed.

Hi Miss Danni,

I have a vet in Bateman's Bay who suggested to me to have my 13 week old GWP PennHip x-rayed, to make sure that everything was OK. The radiographs were done, dog given the all clear by vet, radiographs were to be sent to Penn University. At 7 months of age my puppy went lame, I asked my vet for puppy's official PennHip scores, to find out, to my amazement, that the vet had not followed up and radiographs never arrived at Penn University. So the originals are lost, and spare copies were sent off four weeks ago. Now, $423 poorer, and 5 month later, I am still waiting for the official score. My pup was very thoroughly assessed at Canberra Referral Surgical Services and is now a candidate for 2x Total Hip Replacements. A complete stuff up. Maybe we are talking about the same vet????

I would have the 16 week old puppy assessed/x-rayed by a veterinary surgeon. Hope all goes well.

Edited June 1, 2011 by gwp4me

[Erny]

Maybe the puppy is symptomatic ...

My clients informed me their puppy is not lame and to my knowledge their Vet did not indicate that a symptomatic problem was the reason for the xrays.

[Inevitablue]

Gwp4me, have you considered Fair Trading?

Complete negligence, the whole point of you doing the PennHIP was to find out the pups status! Surely the vet knew he had to receive results back?

[BiggD]

The owner of one of my pups informed me after the fact that their vet in NSW had highly recommended this procedure on their 4 month old boy whose hips were fine but just because he was a Dane. The Xrays showed no sign of any problems but it was a preventative measure. There haven't been any real problems in these lines as far as I know so wasn't happy. The poor owners thought that they were doing the best for him

[gwp4me]

Gwp4me, have you considered Fair Trading?

Complete negligence, the whole point of you doing the PennHIP was to find out the pups status! Surely the vet knew he had to receive results back?

Inevitablue,

I wrote on the the PennHip wall at facebook, got advise, then sent email to [email protected] asking for status of evaluation of those radiographs done 30.12.2010. I also attached following email with vet's ridiculous explanation of missing radiographs:

I looked for the official scores that we should have received from Pennsylvania University when you came in. I was unable to find them and so consequently I checked for the radiographs. We normally take a second copy of the radiographs in case something happens to the originals. I found the Xrays and our original estimates of the the expected score (around 0.3-0.35, a good score that is normally Hip Dysplasia free), as well as our copies.

I did contact University of Pennsylvania and they never received the originals. It would appear that they had a change of address and it is possible that the originals may have ended up being destroyed in the US as undeliverable (because it is a tube parcel if it was undeliverable the american authorities treat it as a possible threat and destroy it).

We have sent the copies to University of Pennsylvania to get an official score. As I said before, our original estimates would be well in the "non hip dysplasia" range and I suspect another reason for is possible.

[Miranda]

This topic makes me so angry that I can barely type nice words...

I couldn't agree more RSG!

[Miss Danni]

Clearly when I posted I was talking about puppies that have NO SYMPTOMS. It would appear from what Erny says that this vet decided to try to "upsell" from the original neuter surgery and create a problem that wasn't there.

The other 2 examples I cited were also pups with NO SYMPTOMS and an upsell from a routine procedure.

I happen to have a breed that has a reputation for HD, so we breeders are hearing more and more of these stories, often about the same vets, diagnosing HD often without bothering to take an xray, just create fear and anxiety in the owners and away you go. No owner wants to think that their pup will be in pain when there is something that can be done about it. Cleary there IS an issue with some vets and the AVA should bloody well take note.

I have spoken to a vet about this when it came up with my brother's pup. He suggested that perhaps some vets will be feeling a loss of income from the change in vaccination protocol from yearly to 3 yearly and that targeting breeds known to suffer HD and offering this surgery may help to make up the balance! We have now added a clause to our Puppy Purchase Contract that if this surgery is suggested by a vet, that they must refer the pup back to us prior to making any decision. We will then pay for a second opinion from a knowledgable vet. Luckily we have never had to enact that clause, but we go over it with all of our buyers now because of how common this scenario is becoming.

I make no apology for what I wrote before, like doctors and all other professionals - there are bad vets!!!! And some vets don't like purebreds or registered breeders. It's my job to help to protect the puppy that I bred, so I will continue to call this surgery as I see it.

[Miss Danni]

Hi Miss Danni,

I have a vet in Bateman's Bay who suggested to me to have my 13 week old GWP PennHip x-rayed, to make sure that everything was OK. The radiographs were done, dog given the all clear by vet, radiographs were to be sent to Penn University. At 7 months of age my puppy went lame, I asked my vet for puppie's official PennHip scores, to find out, to my amazement, that the vet had not followed up and radiographs never arrived at Penn University. So the originals are lost, and spare copies were sent off four weeks ago. Now, $423 poorer, and 5 month later, I am still waiting for the official score. My pup was very thoroughly assessed at Canberra Referral Surgical Services and is now a candidate for 2x Total Hip Replacements. A complete stuff up. Maybe we are talking about the same vet????

I would have the 16 week old puppy assessed/x-rayed by a veterinary surgeon. Hope all goes well.

GWP4Me, that is very sad to hear of such incompetence. And then to read the subsequent email where he is estimating the Penn Hip scores as being excellent when your pup actually does have a problem. It just makes you wonder.

I hope that everything goes well for your pup and that you get the Penn Hip info back asap.

[dancinbcs]

Maybe the puppy is symptomatic ...

My clients informed me their puppy is not lame and to my knowledge their Vet did not indicate that a symptomatic problem was the reason for the xrays.

In that case I would be reporting the vet and finding another one. No decent vet would suggest x-rays for a dog that didn't present with syptoms. Sadly there are plenty of incompetant vets more concerned with money than what is best for the animals. Some of the errors in diagnosis I have seen over the years have been incredible and it really makes you wonder why students need such high marks to study vet science. Some of them don't seem to have a clue. I had one, years ago, diagnose spondylosis in a puppy I bred. After several hundred dollars worth of x-rays they decided that this puppy was suffering a condition that normally only affects old dogs. I sent the owners to a better vet for a second opinion and it turned out that the puppy had pulled a muscle in it's back and couple of laser treatments saw it completely recovered. This is just one of many cases with idiot vets scaring the wits out of new puppy owners by diagnosing conditons that don't exist. There are a lot more shonky vets than there are good ones but the good ones are worth their weight in gold and we couldn't live without them.

BTW, I find that good dog chiropracters are a great first stop, if you want hips checked. Ours are even pretty accurate with 8 week old puppies, predicting what sort of hips they will have. Of course that doesn't take into consideration diet and exercise, that can wreck good hips if you get it wrong in a growing puppy.