Erny Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I'm looking for thoughts and opinions here. This is a pup owned by some clients. I haven't met them yet, nor their pup. It's a Border Collie. When he went in for neutering, the Vet suggested xrays as "a lot of BC's have HD problems". (The puppy was showing no signs of lameness.) Xrays are taken and the Vet's opinion is that the gap where the thigh bone goes to the hip (sorry - forgotten technical bone terms) and rests in the socket is too big. The Vet recommends surgery. I'm a bit vague on exactly what the procedure would comprise of and understandably the client found it difficult to explain (it sounded convincing at the time it was explained to them by the Vet) but it has something to do with using heat to re-shape something so it will fit better into the joint socket. That doesn't give a guarantee that the pup still won't develop HD. My clients are going back to their breeder to find out the parents' PenHip Scores and I've also recommended the breeder be informed of what's happening as well. The Vet expressed the need for urgency in doing the surgery whilst the growth plates are still soft, suggesting that they really want to look at having it done within the week. I am not suggesting the Vet is wrong but I am saying this somehow doesn't sound right to me. So I'm asking for some urgent opinions from others who might have experienced same or similar, who did have the surgery performed and perhaps those who also did not. And whether it really is as urgent as it is being made out. Some of this info is a bit vague and I expect some clarification will be forthcoming later today. I'll let you know if details differ. But in between times, because surgery is booked for this coming Friday, I was hoping to gather some information for these very concerned puppy-owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I would advise them to seek another opinion from a well recommended breeder vet, or wait until the pup is a year old and then have the xrays done at a clinic recommended by breeders. This seems to be becoming a bit too regular by some vets. And I'm rather cynical about those early diagnosis and rushing into 'urgent' surgery I'm afraid. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) There is no way in God's green earth I'd be having surgery of that magnitude on any pup without a specialist surgeon's advice. At that age bones aren't even NEAR finished growing. I have heard a few stories from breeders of panicked puppy owners getting the same advice from vets and having to be calmed down. Tell them to get a specialist orthopedic vet's advice and not to rush this. If there was suggestion of hip issues, I'd also be delaying desexing. I gather that horse has bolted. Edited May 31, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) Sounds like the vet wants to do a Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis (JPS). A search of the forums brings back a few threads on the subject, it is a pretty controversial surgery. If a pup wasn't showing any signs of HD, I'd personally be extremely wary of having the surgery done. eta. 4 months is the recommended age for JPS (or so my googling tells me ) hence why the vet is expressing urgency for the surgery. I'd still be telling them to go jump. Edited May 31, 2011 by FHRP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I'd rather be looking into the Stem Cell Therapy thing. From what I understand its cheaper, and works pretty well. I groom a Goldie who had it done and she has no problems as an older dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 So this vet is an orthopaedic specialist? I would be getting them to seek a 2nd opinion from a breeder vet as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) Sounds like the vet wants to do a Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis (JPS). A search of the forums brings back a few threads on the subject, it is a pretty controversial surgery. If a pup wasn't showing any signs of HD, I'd personally be extremely wary of having the surgery done. eta. 4 months is the recommended age for JPS (or so my googling tells me ) hence why the vet is expressing urgency for the surgery. I'd still be telling them to go jump. Thank you for putting a name to it, FHRP. That does sound like what the Vet is talking about. A quick read in between me doing other necessary things, suggests that there's not much difference in terms of results between JRP and TPO. Not sure how they've come to that conclusion, what they used as their comparisons though. I do see that the JRP surgery optimum time is 16wo. I have already recommended my clients speak with their breeder and obtain a 2nd opinion from a specialist. I appreciate your comments. These were my initial feelings as well and it is good to know I'm not alone. Edited May 31, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 What seems strange to me is the vet suggesting x-rays for HD and diagnosing a problem big enough to require surgery at a young age when the pup appears physically sound - not limping etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 What seems strange to me is the vet suggesting x-rays for HD and diagnosing a problem big enough to require surgery at a young age when the pup appears physically sound - not limping etc. I wonder if xraying at spay/neuter for these and other breeds known for HD issues is becoming a standard practice for some clinics? I'm curious - if the gap at the hip socket does appear to be a bit wider than one would prefer, is it possible that will resolve on its own, as the pup grows to maturity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W Sibs Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) What seems strange to me is the vet suggesting x-rays for HD and diagnosing a problem big enough to require surgery at a young age when the pup appears physically sound - not limping etc. I wonder if xraying at spay/neuter for these and other breeds known for HD issues is becoming a standard practice for some clinics? I'm curious - if the gap at the hip socket does appear to be a bit wider than one would prefer, is it possible that will resolve on its own, as the pup grows to maturity? If it's anything this big... wouldn't a normal vet refer them to a bone specialist to have a look at it before suggesting surgery anyway? I know a lot of bone specialist aren't all keen on operating on a dog till they are properly matured. This what I was told when I got Emmy's patella looked at. Edited May 31, 2011 by CW EW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 One of my local vets routinely recommends and performs JPS surgery on certain breeds of puppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) Yup, if they want to JPS, you need to do it before the pelvic bones fuse by themselves. Basically, the op involves using heat to cause the pelvic symphysis to fuse before it normally would, so the bones of the pelvis will grow in a slightly different shape, causing more of the femoral head to be covered by the hip socket. It's a pretty good option for a young pup that's showing clinical signs of H.D. Studies show it has similar effects to a TPO. It's simpler & less invasive than any other H.D. surgery, and probably safer, with a shorter recovery time for the dog. Here, it's also significantly cheaper than any other H.D. surgery, and doesn't always require referral to a specialist. However, I wouldn't go for it without getting a 2nd opinion from a specialist radiologist/surgeon, especially in pup that wasn't clinically dysplastic. Radiographs don't always correlate to clinical signs where H.D. is concerned. Doing a JPS (or any other surgery) on a pup with no clinical signs of H.D. is pretty controversial. Edited May 31, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Danni Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I had a vet at Batemans Bay recommend this surgery to a puppy owner without even doing an Xray, diagnosis was on "the way he walked" What an incompetent moron. Luckily the puppy owner was my brother, who is no fool. He rang me to tell me what they had said but had already told the vet to go jump. When I saw the pup 2 weeks later, I saw a typical hocky GSD pup where all of the running bones had grown and put him all out of proportion. He is now a happy 18 month old with no hip issues and will be xrayed for his A and Z stamps very soon. I also know of another breeder who went through this crap with a puppy buyer, luckily they also sensibly declined the surgery. When the pup was 12 months, he was assessed under the GSDCA Hip Scheme and received a very low score that got him his A stamp. Just think what pain and suffering this puppy could have been put through unnecessarily, not to mention the $6000 bill for the puppy owners. Vets that recommend this surgery should be reported to the AVA and publicly shamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 This topic makes me so angry that I can barely type nice words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Danni Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Exactly ReadySetGo! Just criminal IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Vets that recommend this surgery should be reported to the AVA and publicly shamed. That's a pretty misinformed statement. I think you'll find that the AVA won't back you up. Doing JPS on asymptomatic pups is controversial. But not all H.D. puppies are asymptomatic. Some pups are limping horribly by 16 weeks. Some have hardly any hip socket when you radiograph them at 16 weeks. If a 16 week old pup is clearly severely dysplastic on both clinical examination and radiograph, then all waiting does is allow further damage to occur to the joint, plus force owners to pay for a more expensive, more invasive type of surgery later. I'd also be interested to know which clinic is charging $6000 for a JPS! Around here a JPS is significantly cheaper than a TPO, which is $2000 - $3000 NZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyla Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 This scenario is becoming way too common. Definately second opinion. Just a question: Could you deliberately get an iffy x-ray if you didn't pull the dogs legs tight enough during xray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I had a vet at Batemans Bay recommend this surgery to a puppy owner without even doing an Xray, diagnosis was on "the way he walked" What an incompetent moron. Luckily the puppy owner was my brother, who is no fool. He rang me to tell me what they had said but had already told the vet to go jump. When I saw the pup 2 weeks later, I saw a typical hocky GSD pup where all of the running bones had grown and put him all out of proportion. He is now a happy 18 month old with no hip issues and will be xrayed for his A and Z stamps very soon. I also know of another breeder who went through this crap with a puppy buyer, luckily they also sensibly declined the surgery. When the pup was 12 months, he was assessed under the GSDCA Hip Scheme and received a very low score that got him his A stamp. Just think what pain and suffering this puppy could have been put through unnecessarily, not to mention the $6000 bill for the puppy owners. Vets that recommend this surgery should be reported to the AVA and publicly shamed. I dont think that this can be a blanket statement!! There would be some cases where this surgery is required- and I am sure in some cases it would be clear from x-rays done by the local vet that it is necessary. As a general rule though I do believe pups should be looked at by a specialist before this type of surgery. I have found that specialists do a much better job at stressing post operative care than local vets!! You have to remember that often it is not about the money for these vets- but trying to prevent pain/suffering later in life. Perhaps misguided, but until the general public become educated, and start asking for referrals then this will continue. I think vets also need to be educated- that they should send x-rays off for second opinions, that they need to make sure the x-rays are good quality and that they should be offering referrals for these surgeries. Not sure how this happens, but I guess by breeders doing a good job and keeping up to date, and educating their vets, and their puppy owners vets it is a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keira&Phoenix Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Although I highly recommend a 2nd opinion for this person as this definitely sounds dodgy and a bit money grabbing, I wish to doG a vet had done xrays on my girl when she was young so we had an option like this. Definitely get a 2nd opinion from a recommended vet or a specialist. Hope it all works out. And I hope the dog doesn't have HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 A vet recommended this surgery for one of my dogs. I booked her in with a specialist because of the tight time frame (similar to this one by the sounds of things). I had already had two pups with massive hd issues, one was pts at 8 months of age. The specialist took his own xrays before commencing surgery and rang to tell me to come and pick my pup up as she had perfect hips and no need for surgery. I'm another vote for a specialist second opinion. Oh and he didn't charge me for the second set of xrays either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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