Too Skinny/seems To Be Losing Weight Not Putting It On

[Erny]

I just grabbed the number of a Vet who comes highly recommended by a lot of doggie people I know she only works 4 hrs a week in a vet clinic at Manly but is booked out 6 months in advanced but she also runs from home it just means a trip to Melany (Sunny Coast about 1 - 2 hrs from me) but everyone who has seen her raves about her, so I am going to see her as soon as possible as well.

When my boy was at his worst with skin eruptions; not eating; etc. I drove 3 hours each way to see a Vet whom I knew would think outside the square a little. Back then, I'd had bloods for thyroid done via USA, but my boy was too young for even their tests to detect issues (my dog was 10mo at the time). But the Vet, reading through Mandela's file said "I see you've had the thyroid bloods done properly". Anyway, the real reason for my post here is to tell you that it is worth every bit of the petrol and time driving if it means there is a great Vet at the other end.

I will still go and get bloods done to send to the US as well.

[Rappie]

I think a thorough vet check and general blood work, urinalysis and faecal testing is in order. I wouldn't underestimate the effect that severe skin problems can have on body weight and general metabolism, but I wouldn't necessarily jump straight into thyroid testing given the potential effect of non-thyroidal illness on the results. That's not to say it will not be indicated at some point, but I think that general investigation is required first.

[Erny]

I think a thorough vet check and general blood work, urinalysis and faecal testing is in order. I wouldn't underestimate the effect that severe skin problems can have on body weight and general metabolism, but I wouldn't necessarily jump straight into thyroid testing given the potential effect of non-thyroidal illness on the results. That's not to say it will not be indicated at some point, but I think that general investigation is required first.

Hi Rappie. I'm interested in what you said here. I'm not sure what you mean. Apologies if I'm just being daft, but would you mind para-phrasing it?

[Rappie]

Diseases that are not thyroid related can cause decreased levels of thyroid hormones, without causing true hypothyroidism. Any chronic stress increases the level of cortisol to be secreted which can also affect the measurement of thyroid hormones. It mainly affects the serum total T4 (TT4), but it may affect the other levels including the free T4 unless it is measured using the equilibrium dialysis method (which is considered the gold standard method of measurement, and is less affected by non-thyroidal illness). That said, if a general blood profile is run and happens to include a TT4 and this level is normal, the dog is unlikely to be hypothyroid.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Rappie

[Erny]

Ok - ca ching! I get it. So ok .... if the full body blood work-up showed nothing remarkable, then a USA test for thyroid in order? Is that what you mean? I still don't believe in the thyroid testing we have out here in Oz though.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Erny

[Rappie]

I think for most purposes, the testing that we have it adequate IMHO. I would tend to use the anti-thyroglobulins as a further piece of the puzzle, if I believed that a dog was truly hypothyroid and needed further evidence to support that. Having a positive result for antibodies does NOT make a dog hypothyroid but does mean that it has autoimmune thyroditis. However, until the point that it's thyroid function declines, it's not a hypothyroid dog, it's one with thyroiditis which needs it's thyroid function monitored. It's important to recognise that for the most part hypothyroidism is a disease syndrome, not necessarily a distinct and definite state of being and we need to have clinical signs referable to hypothyroidism to diagnose it. It's also important to recognise that there are some dermatological conditions that are 'thyroxine responsive' even when a dog is not hypothyroid. It's generally considered to be inappropriate (in most cases, not all) to do treatment trials with thyroxine unless all reasonable avenues for testing have been undertaken. There's also been some recent work published to suggest that the older dogs with 'thyroid atrophy' are actually probably the end result of younger dogs with autoimmune thyroiditis and that the two clinical syndromes represent each end of a sliding scale, not two separate conditions.

[Keira&Phoenix]

I just grabbed the number of a Vet who comes highly recommended by a lot of doggie people I know she only works 4 hrs a week in a vet clinic at Manly but is booked out 6 months in advanced but she also runs from home it just means a trip to Melany (Sunny Coast about 1 - 2 hrs from me) but everyone who has seen her raves about her, so I am going to see her as soon as possible as well.

When my boy was at his worst with skin eruptions; not eating; etc. I drove 3 hours each way to see a Vet whom I knew would think outside the square a little. Back then, I'd had bloods for thyroid done via USA, but my boy was too young for even their tests to detect issues (my dog was 10mo at the time). But the Vet, reading through Mandela's file said "I see you've had the thyroid bloods done properly". Anyway, the real reason for my post here is to tell you that it is worth every bit of the petrol and time driving if it means there is a great Vet at the other end.

I will still go and get bloods done to send to the US as well.

Yep totally worth the drive for my baby. She comes very highly recommended, I hope she can help me get some answers.

I think a thorough vet check and general blood work, urinalysis and faecal testing is in order. I wouldn't underestimate the effect that severe skin problems can have on body weight and general metabolism, but I wouldn't necessarily jump straight into thyroid testing given the potential effect of non-thyroidal illness on the results. That's not to say it will not be indicated at some point, but I think that general investigation is required first.

Thanks Rappie.

Anything in particular that I should be asking them to test for or are the tests that they do usually enough?

So are you saying I should wait for these tests to come back before bothering to send away for the Thyroid tests?

[darlingdog]

Hello this is just in answer to one of your questions about having the fleas outside in your ground. We moved to this house late last year and inherited the worst flea problem I have seen in my life....it was horrendous and you could not walk out side without being landed with hundreds of fleas. We tried all the usual sprays with no success and eventually used a spray we got from the produce called Pidgeon's Termite Spray. We sprayed the house yard and paddock with it and it worked brilliantly. We kept the dogs off the yard for 2 days after we did it. I know it's a strong chemical but honestly it was the only thing that worked. We treated the dogs with Comfortis, cleaned and washed everything and have not had a flea since.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Hello this is just in answer to one of your questions about having the fleas outside in your ground. We moved to this house late last year and inherited the worst flea problem I have seen in my life....it was horrendous and you could not walk out side without being landed with hundreds of fleas. We tried all the usual sprays with no success and eventually used a spray we got from the produce called Pidgeon's Termite Spray. We sprayed the house yard and paddock with it and it worked brilliantly. We kept the dogs off the yard for 2 days after we did it. I know it's a strong chemical but honestly it was the only thing that worked. We treated the dogs with Comfortis, cleaned and washed everything and have not had a flea since.

Thanks very much.

It is definitely not that bad eeek that would be horrible!!

[Keira&Phoenix]

Just a quick update.

I have managed to book her to see the Vet recommended by my Trainers up in Maleny next Wednesday. We had a good chat yesterday and she has asked me to bring along any food/treats and supplements/meds she is on. Fingers crossed she can give me some kind of answer or at least a start.

Thanks for all your help so far and I will update once I have seen this Vet

[Erny]

All the best, K&P. It is nice when we can get if not answers, then at least some direction that takes us down the path of attaining improvement. Good luck . Will look forward to hearing how you go and hoping it will contain good news.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Erny

[UltimatePup]

Has anyone mentioned fish oil yet?

Omega-3 fatty acid-enriched diets can be used to control inflammation associated with dermatologic conditions.

Twenty-one dogs with atopy were entered into a blinded, placebo-controlled study lasting eight weeks... The dogs in groups A and B were given borage seed oil and fish oil in combination to provide 176 mg/kg or 88 mg/kg respectively. The dogs in group C were given 204 mg/kg olive oil as a placebo. They were all re-examined after four and eight weeks and scored for pruritus, erythema, oedema, alopecia and self-excoriation. After eight weeks ... the total score for the dogs in group A and group B were significantly reduced (P < 0.05). The dogs in group C showed no significant improvement.

Fish oil is also great for joint inflammation, so should probably be a standard inclusion in her diet. Does she also get some organ meats? Vitamin A is essential for immune and skin health; there's a stack of it in liver. Another natural food I love is ZiwiPeak 'treats' - the one made from freeze-dried venison and New Zealand green-lipped mussel - fantastic for joint health. I would also increase the number of raw eggs and chicken carcasses for all of the great skin and joint nutrients in those. Does she get any raw grated vegetables? I am undecided whether dogs need these, but er on the side of 'a little won't hurt and may be a good thing', as dogs do seem to naturally eat small amounts of raw fruit and veg.

For mites, fleas and worms Advocate may be worth a try, dosed at 1ml per 10kg body weight, being the minimum effective dose. I hate using chemicals too, but I do use Advocate for control of heartworm, intestinal worms, fleas and various mites. No need to make it a regular thing if you don't want to, but it could be a great experiment to use something very effective like that to ensure she is definitely clear of worms, heartworms and mites.

As you are a raw feeder/low chemical user, I expect you have wisely avoided unnecessary annual vaccinations, yes? Aggravating the immune system with annuals seems to have a relationship with skin conditions.

There is also a possibility of weakness created by her maternal/in utero problems. I have never heard of a newborn pup with hip displasia! Her mother must have had severe malnutrition of some kind. Do you know what went wrong there?

Anyway, it seems that you are very dedicated doggy parent and are doing all sorts of good things to help her. I hope to see updated healthy pictures here soo enough.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Thanks Erny!! Will definitely update as soon as I know anything more

Has anyone mentioned fish oil yet?

Omega-3 fatty acid-enriched diets can be used to control inflammation associated with dermatologic conditions.

Twenty-one dogs with atopy were entered into a blinded, placebo-controlled study lasting eight weeks... The dogs in groups A and B were given borage seed oil and fish oil in combination to provide 176 mg/kg or 88 mg/kg respectively. The dogs in group C were given 204 mg/kg olive oil as a placebo. They were all re-examined after four and eight weeks and scored for pruritus, erythema, oedema, alopecia and self-excoriation. After eight weeks ... the total score for the dogs in group A and group B were significantly reduced (P < 0.05). The dogs in group C showed no significant improvement.

Fish oil is also great for joint inflammation, so should probably be a standard inclusion in her diet. Does she also get some organ meats? Vitamin A is essential for immune and skin health; there's a stack of it in liver. Another natural food I love is ZiwiPeak 'treats' - the one made from freeze-dried venison and New Zealand green-lipped mussel - fantastic for joint health. I would also increase the number of raw eggs and chicken carcasses for all of the great skin and joint nutrients in those. Does she get any raw grated vegetables? I am undecided whether dogs need these, but er on the side of 'a little won't hurt and may be a good thing', as dogs do seem to naturally eat small amounts of raw fruit and veg.

For mites, fleas and worms Advocate may be worth a try, dosed at 1ml per 10kg body weight, being the minimum effective dose. I hate using chemicals too, but I do use Advocate for control of heartworm, intestinal worms, fleas and various mites. No need to make it a regular thing if you don't want to, but it could be a great experiment to use something very effective like that to ensure she is definitely clear of worms, heartworms and mites.

As you are a raw feeder/low chemical user, I expect you have wisely avoided unnecessary annual vaccinations, yes? Aggravating the immune system with annuals seems to have a relationship with skin conditions.

There is also a possibility of weakness created by her maternal/in utero problems. I have never heard of a newborn pup with hip displasia! Her mother must have had severe malnutrition of some kind. Do you know what went wrong there?

Anyway, it seems that you are very dedicated doggy parent and are doing all sorts of good things to help her. I hope to see updated healthy pictures here soo enough.

Yeah there was mention of Omega 3 a few posts back. Both my dogs get a can of tuna at least once a week. Keira was a while back on fish oil and glucosamine tablets and I have been meaning to grab a similar combination to give to her. As mentioned previously though she is on Centrum to supplement her vitamin and mineral intake and she is also on Missing Link ( http://www.ntphealthproducts.com/missing_link/HISTORY_MISS_LINK.pdf )

both were recommended by my vet.

I don't tend to feed much in the way of fruit and veggies and never have and I have told more than one vet what sort of diet they are on and no one has ever mentioned adding fruit/veggies to it but in saying that I am sure the lady I am going to see next week will give me a run down on what I should and shouldn't be feeding her.

I am really not keen on putting any spot on treatments on her at the moment. I will try the comfortis, since it was suggested I have had a few other people tell me how good it has worked for them when they have had an outbreak but have also been advised not to use it long term maybe just once only. She should be clear of worms etc I only did them 4 weeks ago and will probably re do them shortly.

She was vaccinated in October last year and prior to that she was vaccinated in April of 09. I prefer not to use chemicals but I also want to know my dogs have the best chance of not getting sick and with all the disease that has been going around this year including parvo in my area I feel more comfortable knowing she has had her vaccs.

I can't guarantee she had HD the day she was born but she sure was showing symptoms by 16 weeks old and when I saw the physio with her at 18 months due to her limp coming back she said it was most likely she was born with the defect. Who knows, she is a crossbreed from a BYB, her parents were hunting/pig dogs so anything could have happened when her mother was pregnant with the pups.

I am, I love my babies both very much and just want the best for them. Keira has had a long line on health issues and some people have asked why I have spent so much on a dog, have her PTS etc etc. I would never do that she is my family and I love her and treat her like a member. Just hoping next Weds brings some answers and a plan to get her better

Will definitely update as soon as I can

[hilaryo]

Ahh ok yep I see what you are saying. Do you get that from Health food stores? or Chemists?

I just grabbed the number of a Vet who comes highly recommended by a lot of doggie people I know she only works 4 hrs a week in a vet clinic at Manly but is booked out 6 months in advanced but she also runs from home it just means a trip to Melany (Sunny Coast about 1 - 2 hrs from me) but everyone who has seen her raves about her, so I am going to see her as soon as possible as well.

Just wanted to say good luck!

I found the vet/chiro you are going to see excellent!

Expensive first visit but well worth it.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Just had to say thanks to Erny for the Calendula tea tip. I did the bath tub thing this morning and while bathing her i could see her skin was inflammed and sore but 30 mins after the bath the redness had gone out of it and it was clearly less itchy. Awesome!

Would drinking it help as well?? Or it is no good for them to drink it?

[Erny]

Just had to say thanks to Erny for the Calendula tea tip. I did the bath tub thing this morning and while bathing her i could see her skin was inflammed and sore but 30 mins after the bath the redness had gone out of it and it was clearly less itchy. Awesome!

Would drinking it help as well?? Or it is no good for them to drink it?

We can certainly drink the tea (I've had drinks of it and over days have felt better - mind over matter? ) and I know that if our dogs drink a bit of it there is no harm. Whether it does anything for their system or not - I'm not qualified to say. I have given it to Mandela at times when I thought his stomach could do with a bit of help. I can't tell you there was a miraculous change and it is difficult for me to appropriate any improvement to the drinking of the tea itself.

I am so pleased it helped. Keep up the applications until the skin is well settled. You don't have to do the full bath tub routine each time - use the 'flannel wash' technique on the affected areas only.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Erny

[Keira&Phoenix]

Just had to say thanks to Erny for the Calendula tea tip. I did the bath tub thing this morning and while bathing her i could see her skin was inflammed and sore but 30 mins after the bath the redness had gone out of it and it was clearly less itchy. Awesome!

Would drinking it help as well?? Or it is no good for them to drink it?

We can certainly drink the tea (I've had drinks of it and over days have felt better - mind over matter? ) and I know that if our dogs drink a bit of it there is no harm. Whether it does anything for their system or not - I'm not qualified to say. I have given it to Mandela at times when I thought his stomach could do with a bit of help. I can't tell you there was a miraculous change and it is difficult for me to appropriate any improvement to the drinking of the tea itself.

I am so pleased it helped. Keep up the applications until the skin is well settled. You don't have to do the full bath tub routine each time - use the 'flannel wash' technique on the affected areas only.

Ahh ok thought you may know but all good. Never hurts to ask

I will do the other technique every two days or whenever it is looking sore again. They have been treated with the Comfortis now and all of our bedding etc has been washed (again!) and the house vacuumed so fingers crossed we have killed off the last of the little buggers and we can just concentrate on healing and putting on some weight. Thanks again.

[Keira&Phoenix]

Ok Big update!

We saw the vet in Maleny yesterday and wow it was a total brain overload and interesting.

Firstly she checked Keira's tolerance to the foods I have been feeding her and basically she is unable to eat most of it (including her favourite treat shhhh don't tell her) outside of the tuna and the egg. So we have rehashed her entire diet and come up with e plan her new diet is now

90 grams of protein per day in the form of - Tuna, Sardines, Egg (Cooked), Chicken or Turkey

2 cups of Cooked Pumpkin, Celery, Zucchini, Carrot and Sweet Potato with 2 - 3 table spoons of Basmati rice

I can also use Royal Canin - Whtiting and Tapioca dry food as treats or if I haven't had a chance to cook up some veggies/rice for her that day.

She also wants me to give her more bones ie: chicken/turkey legs so she gets meat and bones and a full lamb (she isn't allowed beef anymore) leg bone to help increase her calcium intake.

This will then be supplemented by several Vitamins and minerals (I have a form to order them but not on me so not sure which ones but she was deficient in Zinc and Calcium and a little in Magnesium/Selenium) and a Pro-Biotic. As well as a teaspoon of Apple Cidar Vinegar with each meal for some acidity.

Basically we talked about the fact that it is possible she has had a bug in her digestive system for a while and that when she was given antibiotics for her skin in November they actually attacked good bacteria and that is why she got Pancreatitis and she belives she probably still has said bug hence she has not put on any weight and is losing weight. She also thinks the skin issues are more to do with her gut then an allergy. We are hoping the new diet will help in the next 3 - 4 weeks and we will see improvement. If not I am up for blood and faecal testing of around $500 bucks to see what we can do.

She also did some chiropratic work. Apparently their tails connect to something inside the body and it was twisted actually it was pretty funny she made Keira burp like 3 times just by twisting her tail to fix it. She also said that the way Keira holds herself with her back arched because of her hips is actually pulling on her internal organs, she did a bit of work to fix that. It also makes Keira's spine much more prominent, she has given me some exercises to do to try to get that straighter. She also said she has no muscles or strength in her back legs the fact that she can stand let alone walk is a miracle so prior mentioned exercises are also to help strengthen and build muscles in her back legs. She is also favouring her left leg which is to be expected but it is putting stress on her right hock. She is looking into getting me a leg brace from the US so we can start using that during long periods on her feet (which isn't often) and for walks etc to try and get her walking more correctly as the way she walks is causing her more damage (to her hips, knees and hocks). She is on short walks up gradual inclines to help build muscle as well.

So lots to do over the next few weeks and hopefully I will see some improvement and very expensive tests are not necessary. Bit of wait and see at the moment. Hoping for the best, I do feel better about everything now a bit more positive so that is a good sign

Thank you everyone for your advice and well wishes. Hopefully I will be posting new chunkier pics of Keira in the very near future.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[sas]

How did they check her tolerance to food?

Edited June 9, 2011 by MEH

[tomas]

That sounds great,brilliant you met someone who has given you great suggestions to try and actually sounds like they know what they are talking about.

Wish Keira and you improvement!