Ludwig Orders Inquiry Into Indon Cattle

[raz]

Julia Gillard who many of us voted for in an act of faith is on shaky ground if she does not act fast and with some courage.

She's on shaky ground if she gutlessly bows down to RSPCA and Animals Australia!

[Bullbreedlover]

"She's on shaky ground if she gutlessly bows down to RSPCA and Animals Australia!"

Now THAT comment defies belief.

[KatrinaM]

I think there is some confusion of the three issues raised - plain and simple animal cruelty, halal slaughter and tradition.

Eye gouging, blunt knives, breaking tails and legs, beating the poor buggers - this is animal cruelty, plain and simple. No religion thinks this is cool. These things are anti Islam.

Halal slaughter is confronting for those whose meat comes wrapped in plastic. The method is similar to the method we use on sheep however the size of the animal and its ability to be restrained make a big differance to it efficancy.

By tradition I mean the reluctance to change for reasons that defy comprehension. The "we have always done things this way, it works for us so why should we change now" mentaility. It is hard to convince people that they should adopt better methods which are kinder to the animals when humans outside the door live in third world conditions.

KatrinaM, on 01 June 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Sorry stormie, it does. Traditionally cattle were killed by tying them down, facing them towards Meca and slitting their throat, which is pretty rough when you see it done. The welfare of the animal is not always a consideration. Thats the way they have always done things so why should they change? We are trying to change the way livestock who have been purchased from us are handled in another country, one where people arent exactly treated that flash. Its a bit of an ask to think its going to happen overnight.There is diagreement between clerics as to whether the use of stun guns will still allow the meat to be Halal. If it does cause instantanious death then the meat becomes haraam and their lies the problem.

Sholahudin al-Ayubi is not lying - gouging eyes, broken legs and blunt knives are wrong in anybodies culture, and I am certainly not defending that. There is no excuse for these things to happen, in Indonesia or anywhere else in the world.

If people really cared about cattle and how they are handled why wouldnt you want to change the way cattle are treated across the board? It is silly and unworkable to have one set of rules for Austrlian cattle and another for all the rest.

Absolute crap...I didnt watch the program but a good friend animal like minded told me about the footage and said "they were trying to kill the cow with a BLUNT hacksaw and the poor cow was flayling around". My butcher has a knife that he kills sheep with and he hardly has to touch them as the blade is soooo sharp. These people didnt care about the cow and did not treat it with the respect one of gods creatures demands, and an aussie one at that. This has been going on for 20 years...beyond expressions of words.

There is nothing in there that is crap Shazzapug.

Last time I checked...embryos and semen can be frozen and they are exported to alot of Countries. Obviously you already know that.

Suitable breeding stock will be available to use and these can be utilised for quite a few years to improve stock.

Live meat animals dont have to be exported.

NZ does export live animals for breeding purposes.

Bullbreedlover, what do you suggest happens to the breeding stock, embryo calves and calves from semen that dont make it as breeding stock or are cast for age? Desexed and placed in pet homes? Or do we not owe them the same accountability as animals exported for meat.

Indoneasia has said they dont care where their cattle come from and Australia isnt the only country that has cattle. Dont we owe it to all cattle that will be slaughtered there in the future to keep improving the conditions or if they werent born here they dont matter?

It defies my belief that people are so easily swayed by media. In the same way that all Cavs dont have syringomyelia (we have all seen PDE) not all Indonesian meatworks are like the cruel and rough ones we saw on the Animals Australia show. I cant believe that a group of dog people, who know the agenda of Animals Australia and PETA would still fall for it, especially after how unfairly dog breeders felt they were portrayed in PDE.

[raz]

It defies my belief that people are so easily swayed by media. In the same way that all Cavs dont have syringomyelia (we have all seen PDE) not all Indonesian meatworks are like the cruel and rough ones we saw on the Animals Australia show. I cant believe that a group of dog people, who know the agenda of Animals Australia and PETA would still fall for it, especially after how unfairly dog breeders felt they were portrayed in PDE.

Amazing, isnt it - and rspc bloody a.

The other thing that amazes me is only 25% of slaughtered cattle in Indonesia come from Australia but the people jumping up and down demanding a complete ban only care if the cows are Australian. What about the other 75%? Atleast with the two Governments now working together making changes it might have an influence across the board (probably not much because they're now saying they want to restrict it to a set number of feedlots and slaughterhouses thanks to the shortsighted animal rights' people)

[Amanda Houstoun]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and new to Australia, but I support the welfare of all animals so feel entitled to add my voice here. I did watch the Four Corners documentary and found it appalling. My 12 year old son watched it also. He is also a keen animal welfare supporter and insisted he be allowed to watch or how else could he be informed on what is going on. I've worked in dog rescue for years so am well aware of the cruelty man inflicts upon beast.

Religion plays no part in this debate, the debate boils down to how an animal is slaughtered. If cattle is supplied anywhere to be slaughtered and the method of kill inflicts unnecessary and prolonged suffering it is wrong, and must be stopped by whatever means available. With Animals Australia, the RSPCA and other bodies combining forces, shipping of livestock to such countries will be stopped with the added weight of public pressure. I personally do not care about the small effect this will have on farmers (I come from a farming family) and other bodies envolved in the chain. I care about animal welfare and rights. They do not have a voice and rely upon us to do the right thing for them.

If these countries can find a way to slaughter cattle where no unnecessary pain, torture or prolonging of death occurs, then there is no reason for shipment of cattle not to be resumed, under a watchful eye.

The right thing now is to place a ban on shipping livestock out of Australia. Save these beautiful beasts from the terror and painful death that currently awaits them. Watch the slow painful death of cattle shown on Four Corners if you are in any doubt about what is the correct thing to do. The images have remained with me. Type in Animals Australia and there will be plenty of links to such footage.

[KatrinaM]

Religion DOES play a part in how the animals are slaughtered, that is the whole point! Its pretty sad that you dont care about Australian farmers and the huge impact this will have on farming families and all the associated industries. I am not sure if you are saying you support animal rights or animal welfare, the two are very different things.

Strong emotion is a funny thing, it lets people overlook the facts which is exactly why Animals Austrlia and other animal rights groups use it so often. I only hope there are some Australian farmers still left to help campaign against them when the focus shifts to a ban on pet ownership. If your son wants to develop a social concience you could do worse than to teach him to find out facts for himself and make a descision on these, not negitive emotions rather than rely on persuasive media or information from websites of those with a vested bias.

[WoofnHoof]

It defies my belief that people are so easily swayed by media. In the same way that all Cavs dont have syringomyelia (we have all seen PDE) not all Indonesian meatworks are like the cruel and rough ones we saw on the Animals Australia show. I cant believe that a group of dog people, who know the agenda of Animals Australia and PETA would still fall for it, especially after how unfairly dog breeders felt they were portrayed in PDE.

Amazing, isnt it - and rspc bloody a.

The other thing that amazes me is only 25% of slaughtered cattle in Indonesia come from Australia but the people jumping up and down demanding a complete ban only care if the cows are Australian. What about the other 75%? Atleast with the two Governments now working together making changes it might have an influence across the board (probably not much because they're now saying they want to restrict it to a set number of feedlots and slaughterhouses thanks to the shortsighted animal rights' people)

Oh come on you know damn well it wasn't a beat up, some of us can see past the messenger funnily enough. It's very very easy to be able to shrug this off as just some whacky animal rights beat up, far harder to find a solution. And I'm not interested in any solution which allows this sort of treatment to continue while the pen pushers and suits strut around being diplomatic and achieving nothing. If this is an 'improvement' according to the industry we should never have been sending cattle there in the first place.

As far as not caring about the other 75% don't be ridiculous we have no control over that. The only control we have is the control of our animals

before they leave and control over who we sell them to. We survived 20 years ago not shipping our cattle to them we can survive again, and lead by example. They will want our beef again and when they are ready to do the right thing they will get it. There is a reason we have welfare codes of practice in this country, it's because we give a crap and we shouldn't stop giving a crap when our animals leave our shores for the sake of money. Why bother having standards here if we won't stand by them elsewhere? That just makes us a bunch of bloody hypocrites trading in blood and suffering.

[raz]

Dont tell me what I 'damn well know'. It was an emotive beatup showing only the substandard abbatoirs and as far as I'm concerned irrationally called for a complete ban on exporting livestock.

And the MLA IS working on solutions.

And dont you be ridiculous - ofcourse we can have control over how the other 75% are slaughtered if we supply equipment and animal welfare officers which is what the MLA has proposed. So lose your tone!

Edited June 6, 2011 by raz

[WoofnHoof]

Dont tell me what I 'damn well know'. It was an emotive beatup showing only the substandard abbatoirs and as far as I'm concerned irrationally called for a complete ban on exporting livestock.

And the MLA IS working on solutions.

And dont you be ridiculous - ofcourse we can have control over how the other 75% are slaughtered if we supply equipment and animal welfare officers which is what the MLA has proposed. So lose your tone!

I'm sorry about my tone but IMO it wasnt a beat up at all, how can anyone beat up something that actually happens? It doesn't matter what dramatic music or emotive language or camera angles were used, the fact is that cruelty is occurring no amount of objectivity can alter that it's not a matter of perception or sleight of hand.

The fact that substandard abattoirs are in operation to receive our cattle is just not good enough, call me crazy but the MLA has supposedly been working on solutions for years so forgive me if my faith in their abilities (and their promises) is somewhat jaded. They have already supplied equipment like I've said in similar threads you can give them stunners till the end of time doesn't mean they'll use them. All I can see are platitudes and butt covering so it does tend to make me a bit testy which I apologize for.

[raz]

no probs woof - it's an emotional topic.

IMO the beat up was in only showing footage of the substandard abbatoirs in order to get people screaming for a complete ban, not a beatup about the cruelty so I should have explained it better. The current proposal being discussed between the Ag Depts of both countries is Indonesia keeps trade relations but only for selct abbatoirs and feedlots while the Australians send equipment, trainers and AWOs in order to bring the substandard slaughterhouses up to par. If we pull out altogether we lose the ability to supervise and assist. The Indonesian Ag Minister has already said that if there's a wide ranging ban he'll take his trade elsewhere which I think would be a disaster - not only for Aus farmers and the related industries but for the ability to control how the animals are slaughtered. For that reason I will never support the animal libbers scream for a complete ban and I feel strongly enough about this that I unsubscribed from GetUp who I usually firmly support because I object highly to their campaign, the same as I object highly to the animal rights lobby groups.

Edited June 6, 2011 by raz

[WoofnHoof]

I see what you're getting at I'm just not convinced it's drastic enough to effect change, I think an interim ban would really make them sit up and take notice. They can say they'll shop elsewhere but in reality it's not that easy to source that much cattle and especially when our beef would be very competitively priced being so close. From a purely economic point of view I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper for them to just do what we tell them to do.

I don't think of it as pulling out altogether I would support an interim ban until all abattoirs are up to standard and some agreement with teeth that enforces regular audits and the power to pull out at any time if non compliant. This is in addition to supplying equipment and training, I think that equipment and training with no teeth behind it is going to do little in the long term, equipment breaks down, training isn't kept up and so there needs to be a strong motivational factor in maintaining the standard.

TBH it wouldn't surprise me one iota if the whole expose had been initiated by someone in the industry in the first place, probably tired of seeing nothing done (or the glacial pace of it) and so tipped off AA to do a story on it.

[raz]

TBH it wouldn't surprise me one iota if the whole expose had been initiated by someone in the industry in the first place, probably tired of seeing nothing done (or the glacial pace of it) and so tipped off AA to do a story on it.

I wouldnt be the least bit surprised. Peter Kerkenezov looks pretty peed off at the moment and has demanded the sacking of the LiveCorp Board for knowing about if for a decade, and he wouldnt be the only one who is outraged.

[WoofnHoof]

TBH it wouldn't surprise me one iota if the whole expose had been initiated by someone in the industry in the first place, probably tired of seeing nothing done (or the glacial pace of it) and so tipped off AA to do a story on it.

I wouldnt be the least bit surprised. Peter Kerkenezov looks pretty peed off at the moment and has demanded the sacking of the LiveCorp Board for knowing about if for a decade, and he wouldnt be the only one who is outraged.

Cattle producers are pretty peed off as well, they've been paying levies under the impression that animal welfare was being taken care of so they could avoid the threat to their industry, that and they do care about the welfare of their animals too.

[Amanda Houstoun]

The Four Corners documentary has achieved its purpose in getting the public to take a closer look at what actually is going on within the export trade. Religion cannot be used as an exuse for torture.

When I stated I do not care about the farming families plight if export is banned, I referred to the families who are aware of the fate of their livestock. Being aware is the same as being involved. I am sure there will be many farmers who will elect not to export cattle to Indonesia, and I applaud them. I would very much support any effort made to assist them in their future. There are alternatives.

Katrina M. There is no talk of the banning of pet ownership? I would be the first in line to oppose such a thing. We are speaking of treating animals humanely. I understand that such 'hot' topics do tend to make some people attack personally, but you have never met my son. He has a very strong moral conscience and is well able to investigate matters himself, as I said he is twelve years old not five.

The Four Corners documentary would still achieved its point with pictoral footage only, words really were not needed to see the suffering of these poor beasts. I fail to understand how any animal owners love for animals cannot extend to these cattle?

The equipment supplied by Australia to assist with the slaughter is an awful design. The Australian bodies sent to the abbotoirs to train and supervise failed miserably in their task.

[raz]

The equipment supplied by Australia to assist with the slaughter is an awful design. The Australian bodies sent to the abbotoirs to train and supervise failed miserably in their task.

There are new proposals this week for different equipment, training and supervision protocols that have already been discussed with the Indonesian Govt. Maybe you could look them up rather than throwing in those now outdated by the new.

[Amanda Houstoun]

The equipment supplied by Australia to assist with the slaughter is an awful design. The Australian bodies sent to the abbotoirs to train and supervise failed miserably in their task.

There are new proposals this week for different equipment, training and supervision protocols that have already been discussed with the Indonesian Govt. Maybe you could look them up rather than throwing in those now outdated by the new.

But are we not discussing what has been happening, and what has been allowed to happen prior to recent exposure. Better designed equipment is well overdue and does not help the cattle being slaughtered today.

[Amanda Houstoun]

The equipment supplied by Australia to assist with the slaughter is an awful design. The Australian bodies sent to the abbotoirs to train and supervise failed miserably in their task.

There are new proposals this week for different equipment, training and supervision protocols that have already been discussed with the Indonesian Govt. Maybe you could look them up rather than throwing in those now outdated by the new.

But are we not discussing what has been happening, and what has been allowed to happen prior to recent exposure. Better designed equipment is well overdue and does not help the cattle being slaughtered today. Or do we just assume it will all be sorted by someone at some time in the future and stick our heads back in the sand?

[raz]

I fail to understand your post. The new proposals are to improve the welfare of cattle being slaughtered in Indonesia. What's your point?

[Amanda Houstoun]

I fail to understand your post. The new proposals are to improve the welfare of cattle being slaughtered in Indonesia. What's your point?

My point is that until greater measures of care are firmly in place and cattle will be slaughtered in a manner that may be called 'humane' no further livestock should be shipped to Indonesia. It takes a great deal of time for such measures to be put in place and until it is no livestock should be allowed to suffer such outrageous cruelty.

Mistakes have been made here, and really do need be investigated. It cannot be assumed that just because new equipment's installed and bodies send to oversee that all will be well.

[raz]

There HAS been a partial ban with proposals to solve the issues. An outright ban isnt going to solve the issues - the Ag Minister has firmly stated that if there is a far reaching ban he's going to tell us to get stuffed and source cattle from elsewhere, then we have no power whatsoever to solve it. I'm not sure why people are finding that so difficult to comprehend. Seems pretty sensible to me. It's just a shame it didnt happen 10 years ago.