Chocolate And Carmel

[sandgrubber]

My little choco girl, not so little anymore, seems to be getting carmel tips. Not that it's a huge problem . . . it's just older hair that looses pigment before falling out . . . but it refuses to fall out. Wouldn't do well in the show ring, I'm afraid. (I think it's kinda cute).

Does anyone else have this problem?

[Mason_Gibbs]

My black lab has the same - he has caramel patches from halfway down his back, i put it down to his allergies

[Alyosha]

There is a well regarded theory that dark and black coloured animals have a higher copper requirement in their diets. Up to six times the level of white animals. Copper deficiency is a major cause of coat fade. Seaweed supplementation often helps.

[Mystiqview]

I have heard of reports and without googling, there is a possible problem of people supplimenting canine diets with too much seaweed. Don't forget seaweed also has high concentrations of iodine. A common allergin with people which was why Iodine was taken off chemist shelves a number of years ago..

Iodine has made a reappearance in the form of Betadine in particular.

Still for some people (myself included) are highly allergic to Iodine.

[Nekhbet]

considering the body needs iodine in order to function I dont see how you can be allergic to it unless you're overdosing.

Seaweed meal added to the diet will fix that ... my dogue went a very perculiar shade of dark brown with seaweed lol

[Alyosha]

Iodine can be a problem for anyone (or dog! ) with a thyroid issue. Otherwise seaweed meal should be safe. Another symptom of iodine deficiency is all male offspring being conceived/surviving, and in severe cases, cretinism in surviving males.

In normal thyroid animals and humans, seaweed should be a balanced and safe intake of iodine. Artificial iodine can be harder to manage and get right.

Correct trace levels of copper and iodine are a must for good rich chocolate and non-rusty black coats, as well as for breeding health.

edit - spelling...

Edited May 27, 2011 by Alyosha

[Nekhbet]

In normal thyroid animals and humans, seaweed should be a balanced and safe intake of iodine. Artificial iodine can be harder to manage and get right.

exactly. The levels are low in seaweed but considering Iodine is only a trace element you dont need to pump it in large doses.

and in the event of nuclear fallout consuming it in iodide form will help prevent radiation poisoning :D usefull little halogen that it is ...

Edited May 27, 2011 by Nekhbet

[persephone]

For rich coloured coats/skin pigment , perhaps try &affp=&"]THIS ? Or Livamol ?

The ingredients in Livamol include a range of protein meals, molasses, pollard, limestone, DCP and Cod Liver Oil. To this are added the trace elements Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Iodine, Cobalt, Copper and Vitamins A,D,B1,B2,B6 and B12.

[Mystiqview]

considering the body needs iodine in order to function I dont see how you can be allergic to it unless you're overdosing.

Seaweed meal added to the diet will fix that ... my dogue went a very perculiar shade of dark brown with seaweed lol

Um.. try using Iodine on me and you will see. I will remember this time I get Anaphylaxis. I wonder I get asked if I have any reactions to Iodine when I have had any procedure done in the doctor/hospital.. The Iodine based pre procedure scrub or wound care must be over dosing too.

Iodine is present in many foods.. It may be some do not need as much as others..The content in seaweed may be overdosing when used in higher frequency to some people/animals.

http://www.healthsupplementsnutritionalguide.com/Iodine.html

"Foods high in iodine are · salt-water fish · seafood and shellfish · seaweed like dulse, bladderwrack, kelp, nori · iodized table salt.

Other foods containing iodine include · eggs · dairy products like cow's milk, cheese, yogurt · garlic · lima beans · mushrooms · sea salt (not high in iodine but provides other minerals as well) · sesame seeds · soybeans and soy products · strawberries · some vegetables like asparagus, spinach, summer squash, swiss chard, turnip greens. "

[persephone]

Mystiqueview- my mum could not have any iodine wound care/scrub/ injectable She was very allergic.

[WreckitWhippet]

Do you get those coats as a result of choc/choc matings ?

[Staranais]

There is a well regarded theory that dark and black coloured animals have a higher copper requirement in their diets. Up to six times the level of white animals. Copper deficiency is a major cause of coat fade. Seaweed supplementation often helps.

Do they need more copper than pale animals, or is it just that you can see the effect of Cu deficiency reflected in their coat whereas you can't see it affecting the coat of pale animals?

Liver is one of the very best sources of Cu, but don't go overboard with it, it's very nutrient rich and too much can lead to over-supplementation (of Vit A as well as Cu).

I wonder if it's also possible that this is just old coat that needs to be shed? Unlikely but could reflect an underlying disorder retarding hair shedding.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Staranais

[Mystiqview]

With the chesnut horses we used to feed Livermol. Likewise when I used to have a chocolate BC many moons ago.

Just remember LIvermol is a protein, so too much may put on some extra weight. It does take about a month for it to start to show. Also, if the hair is already "dead" then you will have to wait for the dog to malt that and grow the new hair to see much of a difference.

Some animals, you just have to coat/rug... they will fade..

I have also heard some good reports for:

Groomers Royal Jelly Food Supplement:

Produces natural replenishment of hair. Ideal for dogs that drop coat and condition

Colour-Max:

Colour-max is designed to provide the natural substances necessary for your dog to synthesise the pigments responsible for giving colour to eyes, hair, skin, gums, lips and nose. The result is an intensifying of the natural colour of the animal. Colour-Max does not contain dye and uses only natural ingredients to realise animals full potential. The ingredients in Colour-Max are also important for healthy hair and can result in a shiny and lustrous coat, thus improving overall appearance.

Colour-Max is suited to the following coat colours:

Tri-colours

Reds

Browns

Tans

Fawns

Brindles

Black/Tan

Red/White

All other coat colours that may be of reddish-brown pigmentation or any combination of the reddish-brown and black pigmentation.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Maybe we should start another thread for allergies to important nutrients.

Cretinism - common in Nepal is caused by iodine deficiency - so the body needs it.

Iodized salt is a good way of getting it. Not sure how the allergic people go with that tho.

It's a bit like fluoride, and folate - some people are allergic to those, and I've even heard of people being allergic to water - on their skin. How they get their fluids I don't know.

[Alyosha]

Staranis As far as I know black animals actually require a higher intake than white animals. It has been studied in humans as well and black haired humans had higher Cu requirements than fair haired people. Research in Japan way back in the 60s found this.

Copper is also tied up with iron, and in anaemia cases sometimes iron supplements will show no improvement until trace copper is increased as well - the body cannot use the iron when the copper isn't available.

Chronic copper deficiency can also present as high susceptibility to parasite burdens and/or fungal infections.

Too much copper can resrict absorbtion of zinc.

But don't forget we are still talking trace levels here. Copper is obviously toxic in high concentartions, as is iodine and many other trace minerals. Medical iodine present in antiseptics is at a very different level to the trace levels required for normal healthy body function.

[Mystiqview]

Mystiqueview- my mum could not have any iodine wound care/scrub/ injectable She was very allergic.

Someone hit the nail on the head before: "Iodine is a TRACE element"

I have to carry an Epi-pen. Unknown extra Iodine in foods or cross contamination is very dangerous. The government wanted to bring in legislation (because some people were not getting enough iodine)to make it compulsory to make bread with Iodised salt. There were other foods they were wanting to be forced to be made with Iodised salt.

I remember as a child Iodine was common on Chemist shelves.. Ask your local chemist why they had to remove pure iodine from sale quite a few years back.

Seafood (in particular shellfish) is one of the heighest forms of Iodine concentrations found naturally in food. I am to the point if someone uses the same utensils to turn a prawn on one BBQ/pan and another meat object in another pan/plate, I will react.

I was just warning the OP the possible dangers of adding seaweed and Kelp: I did have another "more reliable" article here somewhere about uses of kelp and seaweed in pet diets and long term effects..

I found this while doing a quick google:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=243x25841

It is a link to another forum. The article I had was also from the United States... I will keep searching

[Alyosha]

Oh, soory, forgot to add - I have used Livamol very successfully as a general conditioner for dogs - to add weight and general condition, as well as improving coat colour and quality. Good stuff. Watch the suger content as it contains molasses.

And the theory is this: any dark coated animal that has enough trace copper will not fade. So rugging and sun protection becomes a moot point. Bearing in mind that necessary copper requirements have never been officially set.

In goats, British Alpines (a black coated breed) can quite successfully be supplemented with 6 times the copper of Saanens (a white coated but otherwise very similar breed). At these levels British Alpines will not fade, or "rust out" if living outdoors unrugged. They will also not develop the dry and curled sort of coat which is often attributed to sun damage.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Alyosha

[Mystiqview]

Maybe we should start another thread for allergies to important nutrients.

Cretinism - common in Nepal is caused by iodine deficiency - so the body needs it.

Iodized salt is a good way of getting it. Not sure how the allergic people go with that tho.

It's a bit like fluoride, and folate - some people are allergic to those, and I've even heard of people being allergic to water - on their skin. How they get their fluids I don't know.

It is not so much about starting another thread to allergies..

One has to remember on a forum or anything where a question like this is posted, we have to be responsible when suggesting "add this or that"... It may be fine to add X or Y to a diet. There are suppliments you can buy for dogs that contain Seaweed or Kelp, but there are also other preparations where the dose rate is for a heavier being than a dog.

Even Livermol, has dose rates from memory for horses and dogs. Many produce stores also sell Livermol by the kilogram. But remember to look on a full bag to get the dose rates.

OP: do a check back through other topics as this topic has come up before and there were other links posted by other members regarding the link between long term use of seaweed/kelp in canine diets to side effects (maybe not a true allergy as such, but certainly side effects)

[Nekhbet]

yes iodine is a trace element

and yes people have been considered iodine allergic when in fact they were allergic to other components withing the product. This was especially prevelent in people who had contrast dyes injected or had the 'shellfish' argument pulled when in fact it was a protein found in the shellfish that was the problem not the iodine.

The body requires iodine for the thyroid to function properly. If you never got any iodine EVER you would suffer immensely. I think the problem is more some people developed a hypersensitivity to iodine overdose, but the medical community took a while to catch up.

[Christina]

How is it possible to tell if an animal is deficient in copper or anything else without a blood test ? Isn't it dangerous to supplement many things without knowing there is a lack of them to start with ? I would think there would have to be a really serious deficiency for it to affect hair colour. Colour is a genetic thing not dietary. Sunlight & age have an effect on it. I seriously doubt that there is any substance that can be applied or ingested that can alter it.