stonecutter Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I've trawled and searched through the barking threads in this part of the forum and got some ideas about stopping barking - but this particular scenario hasn't been addressed (or I can't figure out how to transfer the behaviour training) Our backyard is very open and as you can see in the picture below - we have a pool fence, then a public walking path and then on the other side is a golf course I have no idea what happens when we're out at work - I've asked the neighbours and Ziva doesn't seem to bark at people walking on the path when we're not home - though she mostly hangs out in the laundry during the day and possibly she hasn't been outside in the yard to eliminate when someone has been walking by. But when I work from home - her inside puppy pen looks out over the backyard. Every time someone walks along the path - she barks - and not just an attention yap, a bark and low growl. I've read about teaching to bark on command - using the doorbell or some other controllable stimulus - but I've tried doorbells, vacuums, phone ringing, bike bells and she doesn't seem to bark! Only when she sees either (a) a bird land in our backyard or (b) people walking on the path. I'm ok for her to bark at something that is technically on our property - e.g. if someone hopped the fence we would like her to bark. But we're in a new estate and when more houses go up and the golf course opens - there will be plenty of people walking by. I can't screen the fence (she'd see over the top anyway!) - so I've been doing some thinking about how to solve the problem. So far all I've come up with is to get someone we know to walk past on signal and give her treats so she can't bark. Is that correct - dogs can't bark when they're eating? Give a "shush" or "quiet" command while I'm treating while the person walks past a few times. Then move on to shushing before treating, extending the time between shush and treat. I have a clicker to use (and she has had some clicker training) The plan is to start this weekend - any other suggestions? Someone posted in the other barking topics about spraying her in the face with water - so far we've only done positive reinforcement of behaviour and ignoring behaviour we don't want - but ignoring barking doesn't seem to work because she's not doing it to get our attention. Is spraying with water a negative reinforcement? Would it cause any long term harm or make her afraid of water? (She is happy to drink from the bubbler at the park, not very happy with baths) Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Is that correct - dogs can't bark when they're eating? Give a "shush" or "quiet" command while I'm treating while the person walks past a few times. Then move on to shushing before treating, extending the time between shush and treat. I have a clicker to use (and she has had some clicker training) No, dogs can't eat and bark at the same time. Erik has tried it and he always chokes on his treat. ;) It sounds good in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Many many variables playing here but yes, in theory your plan could work ;) I really just came in to say WOW what a cool yard!!! Can I move in with you?! What about planting some neighbours be gone type trees along that fenceline so that she can't see as well people walking past?! I know for a fact my Aussies would be barking like mad at everybody walking past if I lived with you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks corvus! I remember you saying that you treat Erik when he comes across situations that are fearful or stress him out. When I took her out to toilet mid-morning we could see some workers on the golf course - at first she just looked - I praised and gave a treat, kept giving treats, marker word, praise, pats and we stayed out there for a good 2-3 minutes and she only made one woof leopuppy4 - thanks! it's big enough for backyard cricket or functions for my family (immediate family ie aunts, uncles, cousins is about 60ppl) we don't want to plant any trees since we paid top dollar for the view of the golf course from our yard (OH and I both mad keen golfers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Is very challenging yard for dog not be barking, but my opinion is you need plenty of the people walking on the path where reward can be given for no barking so she is getting used to people along there. Is more difficult when only sometimes she see somebody. When she older you could fixing this with Ecollar training on the low stim works for the barking well for this situation but I can see is situation taking much work if she is already liking to have a bark. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks Joe - we'll have to round up a whole heap of our neighbours and get them to help out! She doesn't bark when they're inside the fence at a BBQ or when the kids come over to play. Sometimes I wonder if she's barking because she wants them to come play with her - the barks for strangers do sound different to barks for people she knows. Joe I know you've posted a lot on neutralisation - how exactly do you attempt to neutralise a dog to other stimulus besides you? I've found it hard to get info on how it works/how to do it (but I've seen the debates on DOL about neutralisation vs socialisation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I suggested to a friend who had the same issue to make people along the fence something positive, not negative. So we got the help of friends for a week to randomly walk past the fence and throw a treat over the fence. No interaction, just the treat. Fixed her 2 border collie x's, they would see people and wait for a treat, instead of trying to chase them away with barking. Apart from doing aversives, that's the only way I can think of proofing the behaviour in a positive way that doesn't require you there all day to reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Oh thanks Inevitablue! Unfortunately she's contained in a dog run when we're not at home - but I could certainly try it and see if it transfers from the big yard to her little yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I can see why! She is so tiny and with a yard so big she would need her own sat nav to find the back door Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks Joe - we'll have to round up a whole heap of our neighbours and get them to help out! She doesn't bark when they're inside the fence at a BBQ or when the kids come over to play. Sometimes I wonder if she's barking because she wants them to come play with her - the barks for strangers do sound different to barks for people she knows. Joe I know you've posted a lot on neutralisation - how exactly do you attempt to neutralise a dog to other stimulus besides you? I've found it hard to get info on how it works/how to do it (but I've seen the debates on DOL about neutralisation vs socialisation) Yes, my opinion would be wrong to having people to give her treats from other side of fence, becuase it can making her worse with excitement for seeing people. In the neutralise, you training her to focus on you when the people are walking past, so she see the people but is you where the fun is not the people, so when the people are coming, I would play and reward her for focus on you and not the people so she dont get value from the people either from barking or looking for play with them. I am thinking high value reward in this training so she doesnt breaking focus ignoring you and run to the fence. So when she look at the people in the beginning, you then distract her away from them on to you with play and reward is what I would be thinking to do so she learns the people dont mean anything walking past. Is hard becuase times you miss the people coming and she does bark is conteract on your good work in the training, so you say in her pen she can see the people, maybe can block off that side of the pen so she can only see people out on the grass where you are there and training with her and having control of what she doing. Joe Is beautiful yard I am liking very much too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks Joe! Sounds like something we're already trying to do at obedience school - she gets time before/after class to meet other dogs - but if she starts to bark at another dog we'll give a command and treat to keep her focus on us. There's so many owners of poorly behaved dogs out there so we're doing our darnest not to be one of them! Inevitablue - originally we thought she was too big to fit through the pool fencing - and for the first week she showed no inclination of wanting to try and escape. Then she saw people and another dog on the other side (perfect timing!) and it clicked! 60m of garden wire and 550+ cable/zip ties later we puppy-proofed the fence - but discovered then she loved weaving through a particular plant that leaves seed heads all through her coat! We're learning at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 How about teaching an incompatible behaviour instead? If she's already excited by people walking past, I don't see how adding treats will make her any less excited, more like the opposite. It could work of course, but as an alternative solution, how about people walk past = cue to go to mat/play with ball/sit at door or any other thing that involves not running up to the fence and barking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 True, if it's excitable barking. I wasn't thinking about her age. The method works if it's driving away barking. +550 cable ties to go back and cut off..... I'd be drawing straws for that job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 How about teaching an incompatible behaviour instead? If she's already excited by people walking past, I don't see how adding treats will make her any less excited, more like the opposite. It could work of course, but as an alternative solution, how about people walk past = cue to go to mat/play with ball/sit at door or any other thing that involves not running up to the fence and barking. Firstly to teach this, you needing a reward higher on the value for her than barking at the fencing. If barking on the fence is her best fun is very difficult to train the mat instead when focus is on the people behind the fencing? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 fuzzy82 - hmmm - never thought of that - lots of things to ponder over the weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyfig Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I suggested to a friend who had the same issue to make people along the fence something positive, not negative. So we got the help of friends for a week to randomly walk past the fence and throw a treat over the fence. No interaction, just the treat. Fixed her 2 border collie x's, they would see people and wait for a treat, instead of trying to chase them away with barking. Apart from doing aversives, that's the only way I can think of proofing the behaviour in a positive way that doesn't require you there all day to reward. I personally would not encourage anyone to throw treats over the fence. It could leave your dog wide open to accepting a bait that may be thrown to her or that she may find. Past dogs of mine and my present boy are trained not to eat food from the ground...only from their bowls...for the simple reason it will help in reducing the possibility of them accepting a bait. Best of luck solving the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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