Uk Pedigreed Dog Inbreeding Calculator

[shortstep]

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3720/23/5/3

Website launched that will transform dog health

25-May-11

The first phase of a revolutionary web tool has been launched that will help dog breeders to find the most suitable mate for their dog, based on how healthy the offspring and future generations of dogs are likely to be.

Mate Select

The Mate Select service, developed in conjunction with scientists at the Animal Health Trust (AHT), is now available via the Kennel Club website. It will enable breeders to begin to assess the impact that a proposed mating between Kennel Club registered dogs will have on the genetic diversity of a breed. The service is intended to safeguard the future of pedigree breeds.

Helping breeders and puppy buyers

It will also enable breeders and potential puppy buyers to see the official health test results of all Kennel Club registered dogs, enabling them to make a decision about whether a proposed mating is responsible and likely to produce healthy puppies. Ultimately, it is hoped that the service can also help further our understanding about the health status of cross breed and mixed breed dogs, about which there is little information.

Professor Jeff Sampson, Kennel Club Chief Scientific Advisor, said: “Mate Select is a groundbreaking service that will enable breeders to match the compatibility of two dogs based on the contribution that they will make to the long term health and genetic diversity of the breed. It is vital that genetic diversity is preserved so that future generations can continue to thrive.

“The service, which will be available for all Kennel Club registered dogs, will also enable puppy buyers to easily find the health test results of parent dogs, so that they can predict the likely health of their puppies. It is intended to drive demand for healthy dogs and encourage and support responsible breeding. Too many puppy buyers unwittingly buy from back street breeders who do nothing to safeguard the health of their puppies or of their chosen breed and this service is intended to rectify that."

Kennel Club Accredited Breeders

Mate Select will include links to Kennel Club Accredited Breeders, whose members follow all of the recommended steps for good breeding practice, and list the health tests for different breeds that Accredited Breeders are required to use on their dogs. These requirements are continually updated as new tests are developed at the Kennel Club Canine Genetics Centre at the Animal Health Trust and elsewhere.

Sarah Blott, head of the quantitative genetics team the Kennel Club Canine Genetics Centre, who has helped to develop the science behind Mate Select, commented: “Purebred dogs are an important part of our lives but we have a responsibility to use the information and science available to ensure that they are as healthy as possible.

“As science develops and our knowledge about dog health grows there have become an increasingly complex set of considerations that breeders need to take into account. Mate Select helps them to make breeding decisions that will prevent the decline of genetic diversity and stop harmful genes from being passed down through the gene pools.”

Mate Select Inbreeding Coefficient Calculator

The Mate Select Inbreeding Coefficient Calculator, which helps breeders to see what impact their breeding decisions are having on the genetic diversity of their breed, is populated by formulas developed at the Kennel Club Canine Genetics Centre at the AHT. The less genetically diverse a breed is the more chance there is that they will inherit two identical genes from both parents – which could be beneficial genes but could equally be harmful genes and two copies would mean that the resulting progeny would be clinically affected.

The Kennel Club banned close matings (mother/son, father/daughter and brother/sister) in 2009. Mate Select will enable breeders to be able to assess the impact that any mating will have on genetic diversity and use this in conjunction with a dog’s health test results in order to choose the best mating pairs that they can.

Click here: www.kcmateselect.org.uk

Mate Select - FAQs

Genetic diversity - FAQs

Health results - FAQs

Notes to Editors:

There has been substantial work and investment by the Kennel Club to help breeders to design responsible breeding programmes. Some of this work has laid the foundations for the Mate Select Service.

The Kennel Club Canine Genetics Centre at the Animal Health Trust - In March 2009, the Kennel Club created a Canine Genetics Centre with the Animal Health Trust and invested £1.2 million to investigate the mutations responsible for 25 inherited diseases by 2014. There are currently 60 such DNA tests and Health Screening Schemes available to breeders to help ensure that healthy genes are passed down through the generations. The health test results for every Kennel Club registered dog are displayed on the Health Test results finder, which went online in 2010 and which now links to Mate Select.

The Kennel Club Charitable Trust’s funding is also helping scientists at the Animal Health Trust to conduct research into developing better breeding strategies to maintain genetic diversity and improve selection away from disease. The inbreeding coefficient calculator on Mate Select has been developed as a result of this research.

Genetic Diversity – Mate Select is part of a number of steps taken by the Kennel Club to maintain genetic diversity whilst preserving pedigree breeds. Such moves include a ban on close matings in 2009, the acceptance of dogs of unverified parentage onto the breed register and encouraging intervarietal mating and outcrossing – examples include the interbreeding of Bull Terriers and Miniature Bull Terriers to overcome a condition, PLL, in Minis and the introduction of a particular strain of Dalmatian (a Dalmatian crossed with a Pointer, carried out in the USA) to introduce the normal uric acid gene into the Dalmatian breed.

Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme - Mate Select has links that enable puppy buyers to find Kennel Club Accredited Breeders. This scheme was established in 2004 in order to support and encourage responsible breeding practice. Members of the scheme are required to follow certain rules, which include socialising their pups, keeping them in comfortable and clean whelping and rearing conditions and giving their dogs the required health tests for their breed before mating. They are subject to inspections from the Kennel Club and if the health test results indicate that a mating is not desirable then the litters will not be registered as Accredited Breeder puppies. This scheme was designed to give puppy buyers an easy way to identify and find responsible breeders.

[shortstep]

Have just spent a little while using their system. After you enter a dog, you can then get the inbreeding average for that breed, compared to your dogs inbreeding level. Most COI's seem to based on 10 or more generations. You can then enter a dog you wish to breed your dog to and it will combine the COI's to give you the litters COI.

So far there are no guidelines for each breed as to COI breeding goals, just general statements that lowering the COI is good.

This system also brings up all madated health tests and the dog's results, but so far is it not doing any sort of EBV scores with them that I can see for litters.

All of this data is open to the public.

Now in some countries in Europe, after they got these systems (like the above) in place, they then set breeding limitations on COI. Such as a max COI allowable or that COI has to drop by a certain 1% on the average COI. These were breed based so all different.

They also madated a lot more health testing and all the results were automatically sent from the vets (another words reporting was also maditory) are all the results are in the system,

and anyone can look them up.

I know there is already planning for using these sytems in ANKC. Has anyone heard of plans being made to put them into place? Or will we just find out after the fact.

Edited May 26, 2011 by shortstep

[Alyosha]

I do question the blanket theory that inbreeding is altogether bad, and the less you have of it the better.

I know I've used the example before but Arabian horses have been closely inbred for thousands of years. They have the reputation as one of the hardiest and healthiest horse breeds in the world. This as well as being so prepotent that they have been used to improve the health, stamina and general quality of nearly every single other breed of horse. Unprecendented. All this from inbreeding. The entire thoroughbred breed reputedly descends from just four arabian stallions. That's a whole lot of inbreeding...

We wouldn't have purebred dogs without inbreeding, yet suddenly some people decide it is nothing but bad?

[Steve]

If all they are offering is COI there's no big deal in that there have been ample free systems available to do exactly that on the net for years.

[Steve]

Sooner or later you would hope that someone would point out that we are not cross bred breeders but rather purebred breeders and that in breeding is what we do!

[Alyosha]

Steve. I wonder at people who seem to use inbreeding as the root cause of all health problems in dogs - ie the more outcrossed a breeding the "healthier" the offspring will be - think of the multitudes of crossbreds in the world with health issues.

[shortstep]

From what I am reading today, it is not accurate anyway. It is erring on the side of false low COI's. All imported dogs are counted as founder dogs, so have a COI of 0%. Many dogs have incomplete pedigrees so they are not taken back the whole 10 generations, yet the numbers are not adjusted for that, so dogs or lines in a dog that are say 5% COI in 5 generations are being reported as 5% computed across 10 generations (a rather big difference and reducing the COI in some cases rather dramatically).

Also remember that the UK Kennel Club now has totally open stud books. Any dogs that looks like the breed and passes the mandated health tests can be registered. All of these new dogs that enter, (and I assume even if they have pedigrees and many will, they will not be recorded) will be counted as COI 0%. This will be very handy as a breeder can drop their COI from very high levels very fast by just adding one of the open stud book dogs to their pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if they make rules that the COI must be reduced, this will allow it to be done. Especially in breeds were all the dogs in the current population have high COIs.

Steve, it says this is just the first step for this system.

I believe before they can mandate COI breeding directives, the registry would have to have a system to compute and record the COIs, to regulate the breeders they need to be able track what the breeders are doing. I think in some countries you enter into the kennel clubs system the sire you want to use and then the system gives you all the information and also tells you if this would be violating any of the breeding restrictions.

So far they have only linked the mandated health tests results to this system. From what I understand there are going to be a lot more mandated health tests and other health information will be collected (possibly vet records like the system they are putting into place now here in Australia) and this data will be added to the system and then there will used in an attempt to do EBV's.

Time will tell. However things are moving and changing at a tremendous rate. Totally opening the stub books across all breeds was of the most dramatic changes I could have imagined. At this point nothing they change or do would surprise me. I wonder how long it will be before it is put into place down here.

Edited May 28, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Steve. I wonder at people who seem to use inbreeding as the root cause of all health problems in dogs - ie the more outcrossed a breeding the "healthier" the offspring will be - think of the multitudes of crossbreds in the world with health issues.

For years I tried to get 'all ' dog breeders to defend each other rights even if what those breeders are doing is not what you do, but that has never happened. Now we reap the results of that short sightedness.

For years I have watched as many people have wanted my breeds stud book open to the purebred working dogs of the same breed. But that has never been considered. Now at least in the UK (and likely the rest of the world will soon follow) that decisions has been made for them by others.

Would have been much better to have directed the process themsleves and controlled the in take of new dogs to only purebred working dogs with pedigrees, but now if they look like a duck they are duck with no pedigree at all.

But if this is what it takes then this is what it takes I guess. Nothing to wonder about really from what I have seen happening over the past 15 years.

Edited May 28, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

Steve. I wonder at people who seem to use inbreeding as the root cause of all health problems in dogs - ie the more outcrossed a breeding the "healthier" the offspring will be - think of the multitudes of crossbreds in the world with health issues.

For years I tried to get 'all ' dog breeders to defend each other rights even if what those breeders are doing is not what you do, but that has never happened. Now we reap the results of that short sightedness.

For years I have watched as many people have wanted my breeds stud book open to the purebred working dogs of the same breed. But that has never been considered. Now at least in the UK (and likely the rest of the world will soon follow) that decisions has been made for them by others.

Would have been much better to have directed the process themsleves and controlled the in take of new dogs to only purebred working dogs with pedigrees, but now if they look like a duck they are duck with no pedigree at all.

But if this is what it takes then this is what it takes I guess. Nothing to wonder about really from what I have seen happening over the past 15 years.

Yep to a point where we have all been educated - not by people who even have ever ever owned a purebred breeding dog but by animal rights loonies to a point where we dont even know the what is best for the species and if we do - we mustnt do it or we face conviction and if we speak of it we are castigated.

[becks]

They are subject to inspections from the Kennel Club and if the health test results indicate that a mating is not desirable then the litters will not be registered as Accredited Breeder puppies. This scheme was designed to give puppy buyers an easy way to identify and find responsible breeders.

That bit gets me - the KC will still register the litter and there is nothing on the registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited, so it is meaningless to say whether a litter is registered as AB puppies or not.

[shortstep]

They are subject to inspections from the Kennel Club and if the health test results indicate that a mating is not desirable then the litters will not be registered as Accredited Breeder puppies. This scheme was designed to give puppy buyers an easy way to identify and find responsible breeders.

That bit gets me - the KC will still register the litter and there is nothing on the registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited, so it is meaningless to say whether a litter is registered as AB puppies or not.

The whole AB idea is a bit of a wonder. I just do not see how we can have 2 classes of breeders, breeders who take the proper actions and breeders who do not. But since this AB idea is being brought in down here too, then it must be part of the master plan and will be tied into the EBV schemes.

BTW I really do not like the way some breeders (like you have above) are already implying that any breeders that do not buy into the AB program are therefor BYB.

Here we go again, attacking each other. I for one have not gone for the AB (and I already did everything they require and more). I am opposed to 2 classes of breeders scheme, think we already have a culture of attacking each other and need to be finding ways to end this and certainly not be promoting it, and I totally do not support the whole AB scheme, that does not make me a BYB.

Don't we have enough people taking shots at us without taking shots at each other? Haven't we run off enough ANKC breeders, do we really need our numbers of breeders to be cut down even more?

Edited May 29, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Yep to a point where we have all been educated - not by people who even have ever ever owned a purebred breeding dog but by animal rights loonies to a point where we dont even know the what is best for the species and if we do - we mustnt do it or we face conviction and if we speak of it we are castigated.

Was thinking being 'educated' and about what has already happened, with the 15 breeds being singled out for vet inspection at shows (in the UK) for health problems.

I wonder if this is how the COI scheme will start out.

I can see 3 classes of breeds/dogs being singled out.

First class would be very high breed average COI lets say above 10% at 10 generations, or single dogs of any breed with high COI. And it would also include all endangered breeds (breeds with less than 100 pups born each year is the usual definition). These dogs would have to achieve either a protocol written for the breed by a panel of outside experts or the kennel club rule of reducing COI by 1/4 each generation/litter till it reaches Class 2.

Class 2 would be say 5-10% COI breed average, or breeds nearing endangered, lets say less than 150 pups a year. They would have to have a protocol written by the panel of outside experts or cut their COI by lets say 2% each generation/litter until the reach class 3.

Class 3 would be 3-5% breed average and they would have to reduce by .5% each genration/breeding until below 3%.

At below 3% breeders have to maintain below 3% and do not need to reduce.

Over all rule that all breeders must breed at or below their breeds current class.

Now I made this whole thing up, but I bet it is going to some sort of system where breeds are classes based on the breed average COI and then required to reduce COI in each litter as directed for that classification.

With the new open stud book, no breed could claim that they can not lower their COI as they can bring in dogs.

Then to be in the AB program you would need to be already below the breed average COI by 1 class on all your litters. So another words if your breed average was in class 2, your litters would have to fall in to class 1.

Any other crystal balls working today?

Edited May 29, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

I think there may be a an argument for an accredited breeder scheme in the UK. But their system is different to ours and that fact seems to have been lost on our own CCs in their endeavour to appease animal rights nuts.

Here in Australia in order to breed a registered puppy you have to be a registered breeder and agree to the breeders codes of conduct and operate under their regs - so if we assume that everyone who is a breeder is doing what is required of them - or surely they would chuck them out - why do we need to create another group which is supposedly doing more and doing it better than the others? The acccredited breeder program in Queensland is basically telling them things they have to do which everyone already has to do becuase its part of the mandatory laws for breeding dogs!

Why didnt they say - everyone of our breeders are doing the right thing and if you find one that isnt tell us and we will check it out - no need to be accredited as being a member is evidence already of doing it right - and if it isnt then make EVERYONE work under the same framework tighten up the rules and regs for every breeder not just those who pay the extra money. How do you justify having members who are not doing it right and you allowing them to remain members - what? You just say dont go to them because we all know they suck even though they are registered breeders? "

The Australian Ccs should be saying bugger off = all of our members are doing it right - not "oh yes we know some are getting it wrong"

And who is deciding what is right and wrong and how are they deciing it? God help us.

[john.davey.1960]

Inbreeding is the way to produce pedigree dogs and is not harmful if you are prepared to cull any substandard progeny as it is also the way to produce recessive health problems.

[Lowenhart]

I don't think COI should be mandated. COI is just a tool, one of many, for identifying inbreeding. It does have it's flaws. It tells you how related one parent is to another but doesn't tell you how much inbreeding has gone on behind the parents.

I have a bitch who's COI is 0%. The UK averages the breed there having a COI at 18%.

Her sire has a COI of 0%, her dam has a COI of 37.5%. I still consider my bitch to have a high level of inbreeding in her pedigree, even if the COI says differently.

[becks]

They are subject to inspections from the Kennel Club and if the health test results indicate that a mating is not desirable then the litters will not be registered as Accredited Breeder puppies. This scheme was designed to give puppy buyers an easy way to identify and find responsible breeders.

That bit gets me - the KC will still register the litter and there is nothing on the registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited, so it is meaningless to say whether a litter is registered as AB puppies or not.

The whole AB idea is a bit of a wonder. I just do not see how we can have 2 classes of breeders, breeders who take the proper actions and breeders who do not. But since this AB idea is being brought in down here too, then it must be part of the master plan and will be tied into the EBV schemes.

BTW I really do not like the way some breeders (like you have above) are already implying that any breeders that do not buy into the AB program are therefor BYB.

Here we go again, attacking each other. I for one have not gone for the AB (and I already did everything they require and more). I am opposed to 2 classes of breeders scheme, think we already have a culture of attacking each other and need to be finding ways to end this and certainly not be promoting it, and I totally do not support the whole AB scheme, that does not make me a BYB.

Don't we have enough people taking shots at us without taking shots at each other? Haven't we run off enough ANKC breeders, do we really need our numbers of breeders to be cut down even more?

You have totally misread what I said or chosen to twist my words to see insult where one wasn't there ie. An ABS breeder can do a breeding that doesn't follow the guidlines/rules of being an ABS breeder and the kennel club will still register that litter - the breeder is just not supposed to say they were ABS breeder at the time the pups were bred. They can be ABS before and after. When I registered my current litter, they emailed me to say the litter can't be registered under the ABS scheme as they had no record of the sires microchip - either send the number or instructions to register litter without ABS recognition!!

The other point being, that there is nothing on the registration form for the puppy that states the breeder is ABS - this is a scheme being touted to puppy buyers as a way of stearing them towards breeders who are supposed to be doing their best for the breed/pups but at the end of the day, the puppy buyer has very little proof (and none of it in paperwork with the pup unless the breeder has spent out to get the official puppy wallets which don't fit all the info we have to supply with the pups!). The only way buyers know that my current litter is ABS is because it is currently advertised on the KC website in the ABS section for the breed. Yes, a puppy buyer could check by phoning the kennel club, but buyers don't even ask to see the paperwork for the health tests, just accept they have been done (I include copies in the puppy pack and explain what they mean).

[shortstep]

I have a bitch who's COI is 0%. The UK averages the breed there having a COI at 18%.

Her sire has a COI of 0%, her dam has a COI of 37.5%. I still consider my bitch to have a high level of inbreeding in her pedigree, even if the COI says differently.

This system (espcially when combined with open stud books) allows breeders to dramtically lower their litters COI in just one generation. Just as is the case with your dog.

This is why some are already complaining that this system is not doing enough and is not giving the buyer the real information of past levels of high inbreeding in the pup they are buying.

[shortstep]

They are subject to inspections from the Kennel Club and if the health test results indicate that a mating is not desirable then the litters will not be registered as Accredited Breeder puppies. This scheme was designed to give puppy buyers an easy way to identify and find responsible breeders.

That bit gets me - the KC will still register the litter and there is nothing on the registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited, so it is meaningless to say whether a litter is registered as AB puppies or not.

The whole AB idea is a bit of a wonder. I just do not see how we can have 2 classes of breeders, breeders who take the proper actions and breeders who do not. But since this AB idea is being brought in down here too, then it must be part of the master plan and will be tied into the EBV schemes.

BTW I really do not like the way some breeders (like you have above) are already implying that any breeders that do not buy into the AB program are therefor BYB.

Here we go again, attacking each other. I for one have not gone for the AB (and I already did everything they require and more). I am opposed to 2 classes of breeders scheme, think we already have a culture of attacking each other and need to be finding ways to end this and certainly not be promoting it, and I totally do not support the whole AB scheme, that does not make me a BYB.

Don't we have enough people taking shots at us without taking shots at each other? Haven't we run off enough ANKC breeders, do we really need our numbers of breeders to be cut down even more?

You have totally misread what I said or chosen to twist my words to see insult where one wasn't there ie. An ABS breeder can do a breeding that doesn't follow the guidlines/rules of being an ABS breeder and the kennel club will still register that litter - the breeder is just not supposed to say they were ABS breeder at the time the pups were bred. They can be ABS before and after. When I registered my current litter, they emailed me to say the litter can't be registered under the ABS scheme as they had no record of the sires microchip - either send the number or instructions to register litter without ABS recognition!!

The other point being, that there is nothing on the registration form for the puppy that states the breeder is ABS - this is a scheme being touted to puppy buyers as a way of stearing them towards breeders who are supposed to be doing their best for the breed/pups but at the end of the day, the puppy buyer has very little proof (and none of it in paperwork with the pup unless the breeder has spent out to get the official puppy wallets which don't fit all the info we have to supply with the pups!). The only way buyers know that my current litter is ABS is because it is currently advertised on the KC website in the ABS section for the breed. Yes, a puppy buyer could check by phoning the kennel club, but buyers don't even ask to see the paperwork for the health tests, just accept they have been done (I include copies in the puppy pack and explain what they mean).

I do not know all the ins and outs of the Uk KC, but what I said about having 2 classes of breeders, those who 'do' what is right and those who 'do not have to' do what is right is really stupid. Kennel clubs should have a standard of care and everyone is held to. Steve discussed it very well.

I do take insult, as you said it again 'registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited' as if you are either one or the other.

So does a AB never make any money and give their pups away?

Are AB pups only born in a home?

Are all breeders that are not AB running a buisness?

Are all breeders who are not AB birthing their puppies in their back yards?

The aussuptions are wild and unfounded and do nothing but cause bad feeling between breeders.

So yes I take offence. Stop saying I am a BYB or a backyard buiness because I am not an AB.

Edited May 29, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

They are subject to inspections from the Kennel Club and if the health test results indicate that a mating is not desirable then the litters will not be registered as Accredited Breeder puppies. This scheme was designed to give puppy buyers an easy way to identify and find responsible breeders.

That bit gets me - the KC will still register the litter and there is nothing on the registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited, so it is meaningless to say whether a litter is registered as AB puppies or not.

The whole AB idea is a bit of a wonder. I just do not see how we can have 2 classes of breeders, breeders who take the proper actions and breeders who do not. But since this AB idea is being brought in down here too, then it must be part of the master plan and will be tied into the EBV schemes.

BTW I really do not like the way some breeders (like you have above) are already implying that any breeders that do not buy into the AB program are therefor BYB.

Here we go again, attacking each other. I for one have not gone for the AB (and I already did everything they require and more). I am opposed to 2 classes of breeders scheme, think we already have a culture of attacking each other and need to be finding ways to end this and certainly not be promoting it, and I totally do not support the whole AB scheme, that does not make me a BYB.

Don't we have enough people taking shots at us without taking shots at each other? Haven't we run off enough ANKC breeders, do we really need our numbers of breeders to be cut down even more?

You have totally misread what I said or chosen to twist my words to see insult where one wasn't there ie. An ABS breeder can do a breeding that doesn't follow the guidlines/rules of being an ABS breeder and the kennel club will still register that litter - the breeder is just not supposed to say they were ABS breeder at the time the pups were bred. They can be ABS before and after. When I registered my current litter, they emailed me to say the litter can't be registered under the ABS scheme as they had no record of the sires microchip - either send the number or instructions to register litter without ABS recognition!!

The other point being, that there is nothing on the registration form for the puppy that states the breeder is ABS - this is a scheme being touted to puppy buyers as a way of stearing them towards breeders who are supposed to be doing their best for the breed/pups but at the end of the day, the puppy buyer has very little proof (and none of it in paperwork with the pup unless the breeder has spent out to get the official puppy wallets which don't fit all the info we have to supply with the pups!). The only way buyers know that my current litter is ABS is because it is currently advertised on the KC website in the ABS section for the breed. Yes, a puppy buyer could check by phoning the kennel club, but buyers don't even ask to see the paperwork for the health tests, just accept they have been done (I include copies in the puppy pack and explain what they mean).

I do not know all the ins and outs of the Uk KC, but what I said about having 2 classes of breeders, those who 'do' what is right and those who 'do not have to' do what is right is really stupid. Kennel clubs should have a standard of care and everyone is held to. Steve discussed it very well.

I do take insult, as you said it again 'registration papers to say if the breeder runs a backyard business or is accredited' as if you are either one or the other.

So does a AB never make any money and give their pups away?

Are AB pups only born in a home?

Are all breeders that are not AB running a buisness?

Are all breeders who are not AB birthing their puppies in their back yards?

The aussuptions are wild and unfounded and do nothing but cause bad feeling between breeders.

So yes I take offence. Stop saying I am a BYB or a backyard buiness because I am not an AB.

Short step before any debate continues the differences need to be clarified and discussed. Just because Bateson and the rest said they needed an accredited breeder scheme over there doesnt mean he would have thought we needed one here .

Edited May 29, 2011 by Steve

[shortstep]

Short step before any debate continues the differences need to be clarified and discussed. Just because Bateson and the rest said they needed an accredited breeder scheme over there doesnt mean he would have thought we needed one here .

Yes I do understand that, and it is more of the same, different levels of breeders. As I said all Kennel clubs should have a standard of care, and all members should have to live by it, and everyone who uses the registry should have to be a memeber . I am so sick of hearing the words BYB pasted on to any breeder who does something different to what the person makeing the accusation does.

Does anyone really thing that KCs can take another divide in their membership and survive it? I guess we will find out.

I really do see making these divisions as what has lead to the downfall of dog breeding, and BTW I really do see dog breeding as on it way down in a very serious way and it is happening now.

BTW I just read the Chairman (or is it president?) of UK KC has stated he will resign. May not mean anything at all, but seems like a very busy time of big changes at the KC to make that announcment too.

edited, opps I was responding to your comments about membership and breeders in the Uk KC being different to here.

Edited May 30, 2011 by shortstep