BlackJaq Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 So I don't think anybody has asked about fencing yet? I own about 600 acres adjoining a natinal forest and am having a lot of difficulty with Foxes and wild pigs. How would a working dog cope with a mob of pigs? I do not have any lifestock other than poultry and two horses at the moment because the fences are just not up to it (I only purchased the place about 18 months ago) and am looking to re-fence the boundary first. Obviously predator proof fencing would be great but I have several km's of fence line to do so this would likely not be an option. About 400 acres of my place are forrested as well, only about 200 are cleared for grazing, however the soil is pretty poor and prone to erosion so I will likely plant fodder trees to cover most of this area to about 40%. The property is also very hilly. We do not get many visitors but have had lots of property stolen off neighbours' places and things have been taken here as well before I bought this place (apparently someone came and stole a brand new bobcat off this place about three years ago... They must have brough a truck and everything). I already own a Weimaraner who is kept inside with me and does some minor retrieving work when we go shooting rabbits and foxes, and a pound dog who is temporarily on poultry duty outside due to a heavier coat. She is penned next to the chicken coop at night but is fine with chickens etc loose during the day so I suppose she is acting as a lifestock guard dog despite unknown breeding (guesses have been made at anything from RR to boxer or other bully breeds). What kind and height of fencing would I need to keep the dogs in? Will they dig under? Are they likely to come to the house for company if the lifestock numbers are fairly low? Will they guard against strange animals? My neighbours' horses have found their way into my property before, damaging my electric fencing and attempting to "join" my horses to their herd... Also, are they likely to be injured by feral pigs guarding their piglets? Feral pigs will eat lambs and kids and also poultry, hence my asking as the dog is likely to get into a sitation where it will need to guard stock from pigs. Then again, I may get pigs in the future, will they differentiate between penned pigs and feral pigs? Am I better off not getting guard dogs due to the danger if people coming to steal things are armed? I am not keen on the idea of dogs guarding the house for that reason, but if a dog was kept for the free range poultry near the house, I am guessing the dog might guard the house as well so any intruders would feel threatened enough to dispose of the dog? It sucks to have to consider this but I have known of guard dogs in the industrial estate being shot or poisoned by intruders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) So I don't think anybody has asked about fencing yet? I own about 600 acres adjoining a natinal forest and am having a lot of difficulty with Foxes and wild pigs. How would a working dog cope with a mob of pigs? I do not have any lifestock other than poultry and two horses at the moment because the fences are just not up to it (I only purchased the place about 18 months ago) and am looking to re-fence the boundary first. Obviously predator proof fencing would be great but I have several km's of fence line to do so this would likely not be an option. About 400 acres of my place are forrested as well, only about 200 are cleared for grazing, however the soil is pretty poor and prone to erosion so I will likely plant fodder trees to cover most of this area to about 40%. The property is also very hilly. We do not get many visitors but have had lots of property stolen off neighbours' places and things have been taken here as well before I bought this place (apparently someone came and stole a brand new bobcat off this place about three years ago... They must have brough a truck and everything). I already own a Weimaraner who is kept inside with me and does some minor retrieving work when we go shooting rabbits and foxes, and a pound dog who is temporarily on poultry duty outside due to a heavier coat. She is penned next to the chicken coop at night but is fine with chickens etc loose during the day so I suppose she is acting as a lifestock guard dog despite unknown breeding (guesses have been made at anything from RR to boxer or other bully breeds). What kind and height of fencing would I need to keep the dogs in? Will they dig under? Are they likely to come to the house for company if the lifestock numbers are fairly low? Will they guard against strange animals? My neighbours' horses have found their way into my property before, damaging my electric fencing and attempting to "join" my horses to their herd... Also, are they likely to be injured by feral pigs guarding their piglets? Feral pigs will eat lambs and kids and also poultry, hence my asking as the dog is likely to get into a sitation where it will need to guard stock from pigs. Then again, I may get pigs in the future, will they differentiate between penned pigs and feral pigs? Am I better off not getting guard dogs due to the danger if people coming to steal things are armed? I am not keen on the idea of dogs guarding the house for that reason, but if a dog was kept for the free range poultry near the house, I am guessing the dog might guard the house as well so any intruders would feel threatened enough to dispose of the dog? It sucks to have to consider this but I have known of guard dogs in the industrial estate being shot or poisoned by intruders You need a Kimba :) Will kill pigs and wild dogs no problem. got to run will elaborate later. Edited August 2, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Ok thank You, I would love some more info :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Funny Faces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 here So I don't think anybody has asked about fencing yet? Hi BlackJaq Since you are in the Maremma thread, Maremmas are good. Maremmas work here on 46500ha protecting livestock. Maremmas were developed over 2000 years ago to guard against Bears, Wolves and thieves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Thanks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) BlackJaq, for pigs, you need a dog that will actually confront and kill the pigs. From what I understand of maremmas (correct me if Im wrong steve et al) from the feedback from farmers with feral pigs as a problem and threat to their stock / farm supplies - maremmas will not take on the pig and I'm not sure if physically / mentally the maremma is prime for killing feral pigs. Honestly, not all Anatolians are either, you really need a dog that has the type of psyche that does not back down, will out think the pigs and also have a search and destroy mentality. At the same time, this type of dog is a lot of responsibility; however it can work very well. If you like, you can email a lady in Hawaii who has an assertive male Anatolian from me and lives in an isolated jungle area of Hawaii - your farm setup sounds very similar to hers. Her Anatolian male (Hannibal) lives with a maremma, a west highland terrier, miniature donkeys, free range chickens, horses, goats ... he was killing young pigs at 6 months, and at 12 months kills male adult pigs - but mostly the pigs have stopped coming near the property. Also, Hannibal has learned not to kill transient feral cats - important to maintain as otherwise the rodent population becomes a problem. Hannibal has also learned not to scatter and run through the chickens when in pursuit. You can email Hannibal's owner about how she raised / trained her assertive personality type A :laugh: Anatolian. Hannibal's owner utilised maremmas before and the temperament / reactivity of Hannibal was a very steep learning curve for them. The owner found the maremma had a stronger bond to the animals (in general I think this is true for Anatolian Vs maremma) and the Anatolian was more combative, and so the combination worked well: Maremma to usher the animals and stay with them in the barn and the Anatolian to provide the physical force and ultimate deterrent of feral pigs (and sometimes wild / stray dogs). Before Hannibal came along, the maremmas would run into the barn with the animals but the pigs would then barge the barn, resulting in stock and feed losses. Edited August 6, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 That sounds pretty much like the kind of set-up I would need around here believe. There are usually sows with piglets about to I would be worried about a single dog's ability to deal with a mob with motherly/defensive sows or several adults in general. There would also need to be a very good fence to ensure the dog cannot escape the proeprty. How big an area would an Anatolian cover? I assume that internal fences would not be too much of an obstacle to the dogs sicne other people's LGDs will travel between pastures? There are no houses within several km of our house and liek I said, national park on three sides so no stock or people living there. I would be interested in speaking to the lady without you dog sicne I have never owned a dog with a similar personality. All ym dogs so far have been high strung but timid with strangers/loud persons. The only aggression I have had so far was a fear aggressive dog on steroids (for an immune condition that was causing the body to attack the cartlidge in some parts of her body), so naturally before she was sick she was ok and pretty easy to manage. We put her down in the end because steroids weren't fixing it, just delaying reactions. What kind of management would a dog as described require? Mostly containment-wise? How would the dog cope with being vetted if injured (possibly by a stranger or relatively unknown vet) Would there be issues with handling the dog? Or would the dog be ok with people living on the property? How about new animals or people (.i.e. kids maybe.. one day lol) or even people visiting? Would the dog accept visitors if introduced by the handler or would he need to be confined when shearers/vets/visitors come out and handle lifestock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Blackjaq I have sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Hi BlackJaq Sounds to me like you need a 'pig dog.' These are quite categorically "Dangerous Dogs" from day dot and will need to be registered as a Dangerous dog. That's a whole can of worms I don't envy you for. I have no information about Maremmas and pigs but would expect that they would not be suitable, however, I may be wrong. Nevertheless, Maremmas will protect against thieves, foxes, wild dogs and other feral animals. So. you may need a two pronged approach. A dog for the farm and some other method for managing your pig problem. Personally I would not touch a pig dog with a barge pole and would consider every other possible option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Maremma keep wild boars away just as they keep wolves and bears away! Maremma in Italy is famous for its wild boar and while its known as a menu item the dogs are more than capable of keeping them out. I have about half a dozen working around Australia that Ive placed which keep away pigs and all the rest and doing a great job. However, they work better in numbers against pigs and wild dogs - see here http://www.maremmano.com/maremma_bond_to_livestock/using_packs_of_maremmas_to_guard.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 enjoy: some common sense here H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeopener Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 enjoy: some common sense here H I have found personally that maremma's stick with the flock/livestock more & they are best used in conjunction with another breed, I have seen a few comabations work well for aussy boars, wild dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Maremmas work differently depending on how many are in the paddock. One stays with the flock as leaving it means they would be unprotected - a predator could come in from behind etc but put two or three or more there and you have a whole new ball game. The guys Ive placed which are protecting from wild pigs are working with nothing but Maremma and doing a great job. Maremma arent interested in hunting them or killing them unless they have no choice and the pigs dont take the hint and keep coming. Usually they dont keep coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeopener Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Maremmas work differently depending on how many are in the paddock. One stays with the flock as leaving it means they would be unprotected - a predator could come in from behind etc but put two or three or more there and you have a whole new ball game. The guys Ive placed which are protecting from wild pigs are working with nothing but Maremma and doing a great job. Maremma arent interested in hunting them or killing them unless they have no choice and the pigs dont take the hint and keep coming. Usually they dont keep coming. Thats very positive to hear, I think maybe as in all guardian breeds not all dogs any maybe even more importantly in this case bloodlines are exell when it comes to thier natural guardian instints & work ethics. I have to say I have come across a few maremma's that may have been breed more for the ring than the paddock & that may have been a big factor. I do find with our boys the maremma tends to stick more to the flock 7 although the others are not hunting down the predotors they are patroling thier boundries & anything found within those boundries that could pose a threat to thier livestock, humans or belongs are fair game. This Maremma will deal with a threat if it get past the others & gets closr to the livestock but generally thats never more than a fox these days so he has not been tested for me to say whether he'd handle a pig. He was purchased with a female but she had way to much chase n play driive to keep in the paddocks & was at an age she should have known better so was rehomed to a pet home as that was another factor she preverred to hang around the sheds n house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I have finally emailed the lady I was put in touch with (it took me a while to get around to that, sorry) and now I am pretty excited to hear back. So far, I have only noticed pig activity in the autumn so I can only imagine that they travel around and this is where they like to spend their fall :p Then again, if there was lifestock or other sources of food (feeders, better pasture, whatever) they might decide to hang around more. Fortunately we do not generally get hikers wandering around the place since it is very secluded so I would probably post a sign (very prominently) on the front gate and anybody who enters unannounced would just be out of luck :p How likely are LGDs to eat food offered by trespassers? Would they eat a bait if it was offered to them? Can you possibly train them to only eat from their designated feeding station? It sounds kind of impossible to me, seeing how they would be completely unattended by people for long periods of time... How likely would a pack of Maremmas be to actually attack a person who was attempting to break into sheds or other buildings? Or would they only feel the need to attack if the person went for the lifestock? Or would they maybe not attack a person at all and just keep barking and posing? Also, is it actually a worthwhile expenditure to buy a bunch of dogs to guard a fairly small flock of only about 50 or so animals? How do they go with electric fencing in case we decided to do strip grazing? Do they just ignore it due to their heavy coat? I know my Weimaraner zapper herself a few times when she was little and will not cross a simple three strand electric fence now. If you close the gate and walk away she is STUCK :p Sorry, so many questions, I have pretty much ZERO LGD knowledge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 This kind of brings me to the question of how much does a Maremma cost? Sorry, I realize this is a sensitive issue but I have an OH who needs to be sold on the idea lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) How likely would a pack of Maremmas be to actually attack a person who was attempting to break into sheds or other buildings? Or would they only feel the need to attack if the person went for the lifestock? Or would they maybe not attack a person at all and just keep barking and posing? . I have three Maremma here and they would all respond differently. One will attack and bite no matter where the offenders were on the property, one will bark threateningly but keep a distance near his stock, and one would yawn, stretch and finally get up and go seek out a pat. I recently paid $900 for a limited register pup started with stock. Edited September 18, 2012 by Clyde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 If you have more than one and someone were to keep coming in the night when they were told not to by the dogs chances are they would get dropped but if you had one it would depend on what they are guarding and where what they are guarding is. Ill try with some examples. Years ago when I was just learning about them I had one bitch which was born the same day as my youngest son. Im on a 500 acre property and I hear a noise - so did the bitch who was in the house with me .Everything about her bidy language told me she knew something was out there. She barked and I opened the door and told her to go out - Nup no way . Instead she got up when I opened the door and moved back to the kids bedroom door way as if to say .Yes there's a noise out there if you want to be brave and go out after them that's O.K. don't worry Ive got the kids covered .That's exactly how they work with the chooks or the sheep. If there is two one will go out the other will stay - If there is three one will stay dead centre as a back stop unless they actually go in and then 2 go in and one comes and goes for short bites and then back to the sheep. If I change the ratio the one that was going out stays with the sheep and takes over the job. But they bark and give loads of warning no matter how many there are and only go in if there is no option. So with Maremma you dont look for dead predators you look for no sign of predators any more. they guard their animals more than they guard the property but they know their boundary and work out in a heart beat what is normal. Someone walking in and behaving s if they are coming to the front door is yelled at a lot on the way but able to come in without real concern they will be bitten but be sneaky, come in running or attempt to go to an area where normally people outside of the family dont go and if you keep coming they will pin you down. We had one "night time human visitor" who came over our 6 feet high colour bond fence - he got back out again but left the back of his jeans behind where the dogs ripped them off him just a little bloodstained as he was going out again. We have everyone coming to the house usually stopping at the front of the house go further and we escort you but the guy who services the septic system decided to drive straight into the back yard - as he got out of the car the bitch knocked him off his feet by hitting him in the back of the knees and then stood over him and didnt let him up until I came out and she then moved off him and came and sat at my side with low growls if he looked like coming close - So they know what is normal- normal for the property, normal body language, normal reactions when there is no threat - anything out of the ordinary they react to. How they react depends on how quickly the intruder backs down and gets out.Keep coming they will definitely do what ever they think is needed to protect their flock. Wild dogs which don't do as they are told and stay back are found belly up in the dam with broken backs - hard to console the gentle giants that love me to bits with a killer but no doubt about it give em no choice thats exactly what they are if they cant avoid it . They react by knowing when their charges are feeling worried or stressed - With sheep its a stamp of the foot, an ear movement flared nostril etc Price depends on what you want them for and how much they are started. An adult which is working well with a species that can go straight in and guard a couple of hundred sheep or walk in and fend off Eagles for your chickens is worth more than an 8 week old pup because Ive done a lot of the work for you and you dont have to wait to get it to a point where its doing what you want it for. One which is going to be used for breeding is worth more than one which isn't and renting mine in fox season for a few months is worth $200 a week and thats only if I know you and like you. Mine start at around $800 for an 8 week old pup and the most Ive had is $4000 for a 2 year old boy working with sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) How likely are LGDs to eat food offered by trespassers? Would they eat a bait if it was offered to them? Can you possibly train them to only eat from their designated feeding station? It sounds kind of impossible to me, seeing how they would be completely unattended by people for long periods of time... Hi BlackJaq This idea of unattended Maremmas left to be fed by hoppers is a serious misconception. The Maremma is, more correctly, a shepherdess's dog and they were never intended to be left abandoned for long periods of time. The sheep were always corralled at night and the dogs would come in with the shepherds. Shepherds needed protection from wolves and bears too. They always had human companionship. They are a shepherds dog. To put it another way, probably more than many other breeds, the Maremma is an affialiative dog, they have an instinctual need for company. Dogs also need to be checked for tick, and other possible ailments daily. Regards Edited September 18, 2012 by Tralee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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