Maremmas For Sheep Guarding?

[Steve]

So Here is the question. I have a litter here - beautiful - except one. What do you do with a mini Maremma.

This little girl is about a quarter of the size of her litter mates and is an obvious dud.Appears to happy and healthy but looks like a maltese.

Put "rare" in front of her name and charge twice as much

[WoofnHoof]

I was asked the other day if mareemas would be good guardians for kangaroos, one of my workmates is a wildlife carer and apparently they have trouble with dogs and foxes worrying their rehabs. One of the concerns was that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs and then be more vulnerable when released. Steve have you heard of Roos being successfully used with mareemas? I've also heard of donkeys being used as guardians but I know next to nothing about them so if anyone knows if donkeys would be suitable for this please let me know and I'll pass on the info

[Steve]

I was asked the other day if mareemas would be good guardians for kangaroos, one of my workmates is a wildlife carer and apparently they have trouble with dogs and foxes worrying their rehabs. One of the concerns was that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs and then be more vulnerable when released. Steve have you heard of Roos being successfully used with mareemas? I've also heard of donkeys being used as guardians but I know next to nothing about them so if anyone knows if donkeys would be suitable for this please let me know and I'll pass on the info

The Maremmas would do well with Roos and its very unlikely that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs.Thats not what happens in any other situation where the dogs work with native fauna or domestic animals.

[WoofnHoof]

I was asked the other day if mareemas would be good guardians for kangaroos, one of my workmates is a wildlife carer and apparently they have trouble with dogs and foxes worrying their rehabs. One of the concerns was that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs and then be more vulnerable when released. Steve have you heard of Roos being successfully used with mareemas? I've also heard of donkeys being used as guardians but I know next to nothing about them so if anyone knows if donkeys would be suitable for this please let me know and I'll pass on the info

The Maremmas would do well with Roos and its very unlikely that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs.Thats not what happens in any other situation where the dogs work with native fauna or domestic animals.

Cool thanks I'll pass that on

[casowner]

Having had a lgd with all types of animals from guinea pigs, emus, donkeys, roos etc the main issue is that roos are highly flighty and at night the movement can be unpredicatable meaning if a roo scares and the dog doesn't immediately recognise what it is their protection drive can kick in. I trusted Jake with many of my animals but not in with the roos he was with them when they were pouched but not loose in the pen. I had Jake in with mine quite a lot when I was with him and one of his favouritte spots to lie was along the fence with the kaangaroos but I personally wouldn't have been 100% confident to leave him unsupervised for long periods of time just in case they got a spook and started to fence run. Saying this he was brilliant with them when they were calm, he specially loved the emus and they would actually play with each other and sleep together

Edited June 4, 2011 by casowner

[WoofnHoof]

Having had a lgd with all types of animals from guinea pigs, emus, donkeys, roos etc the main issue is that roos are highly flighty and at night the movement can be unpredicatable meaning if a roo scares and the dog doesn't immediately recognise what it is their protection drive can kick in. I trusted Jake with many of my animals but not in with the roos he was with them when they were pouched but not loose in the pen. I had Jake in with mine quite a lot when I was with him and one of his favouritte spots to lie was along the fence with the kaangaroos but I personally wouldn't have been 100% confident to leave him unsupervised for long periods of time just in case they got a spook and started to fence run. Saying this he was brilliant with them when they were calm, he specially loved the emus and they would actually play with each other and sleep together

Thanks for the info Cas Do you know much about the donkeys as guardians aspect?

ETS please PM me if you do I don't want to take the thread OT

Edited June 4, 2011 by WoofnHoof

[persephone]

What do you do with a mini Maremma.

The new pet guardian,, for rabbits/guineapigs & rats, perhaps?

We do need photos!!

[Guest Willow]

It's a TEACUP Maremma!!!!

[Steve]

It's a TEACUP Maremma!!!!

She is almost 8 weeks old and smaller than an 8 week old Beagle Pup. So small we have had to build a special step for her to be able to get up onto the porch

[espinay2]

Do you have dwarfism in Maremma? We do in Pyreneans: http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/dwarfs/index.html

Some pictures of what they can look like compared to normal siblings: http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/dwarfs/dwarfpups.html

[Clyde]

Espinay, what do you think the main differences are between Maremma and Pyrs? (aside from size).

[Steve]

Do you have dwarfism in Maremma? We do in Pyreneans: http://sonic.net/~cd...arfs/index.html

Some pictures of what they can look like compared to normal siblings: http://sonic.net/~cd.../dwarfpups.html

Ive never heard of it and it was one of the things I went looking for info on for this little girl. I questioned my vet who seemed to think it wasnt dwarfism as she is in perfect proportion.She was born about a quarter of the size of all the others too so its not something thats happened as she has developed.the vet seemed to think she would grow and turn out not that much smaller but its hard to see thats possible at the moment.Everything about her is smaller including her facial features and head.

Dunno - there is nothing new in this breeding and Ive got pretty detailed info re ancestry going back 5 plus generations which includes siblings etc and Ive never seen it before. This is the second mating with these two dogs and 24 puppies with this one the only one being smaller. Because the Maremma gene pool is so small - We only started off with 15 dogs in Australia in the mid 19's and not many have come in since you would expect if it were a recessive issue that it would have shown way before now and I would expect more than one in 24 from parents who were carriers.

To be honest when I saw how small she was born I never expected she would live and Ive not helped her in anyway and she is fit and strong and thriving. The vet asked me if I wanted her put to sleep but when she got a clean bill of health its just not in me to take her out because she doesnt fit the standard and is too small. If the vet had said it would affect her quality of life I wouldnt have hesitated but it appears she is in great health. She is certainly acting like any other Maremma.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Steve

[casowner]

What will you do with her Steve? When I was waiting for 2 years for my pup I wanted to call it Asha . I know the RSB had a bitch puppy a few years ago that they were going to see how she went but don't know if she passed the training, I wouldn't have thought they would be suitable though

[Steve]

What will you do with her Steve? When I was waiting for 2 years for my pup I wanted to call it Asha . I know the RSB had a bitch puppy a few years ago that they were going to see how she went but don't know if she passed the training, I wouldn't have thought they would be suitable though

Ill completely ruin her I guess

[espinay2]

Bugger, I just wrote a response and lost the lot

I questioned my vet who seemed to think it wasnt dwarfism as she is in perfect proportion.She was born about a quarter of the size of all the others too so its not something thats happened as she has developed.the vet seemed to think she would grow and turn out not that much smaller but its hard to see thats possible at the moment.

It will be interesting to see if she grows to full size eventually. There is a form of proprtionate dwarfism (pituitary dwarfism), found mainly in the GSD. Interesting note is that Dwarfism in Pyrs is thought to have arisen in the breed as a mutation in dogs in the US around the late 1960's.

Espinay, what do you think the main differences are between Maremma and Pyrs? (aside from size).

Of the LGD breeds the two have many similarities but also some distinct differences. Apprearance-wise as you say Pyrs tend to be larger. While lupomolossoid in type some also tend to be more mastiff-like (though this end of the spectrum is not really correct for the breed). Double dewclaws on the hind legs are a hallmark of the breed. They can have markings on the head and body as well as being all white. they have a lower earset and eyes tend to be a little more almond shape. They tend to have more 'fill' under the eyes and a 'good head' on a Pyr will be a lot 'smoother' (photo example attached). From my experience Maremma tend to be a bit 'sharper' in personality though this can be a result of particular lines in Pyrs. Some european lines do tend to be more 'primitive' in this respect. Pyreneans tend to work well in situations where there are a lot of people coming and going as they tend to be very discriminating about what is a threat and what is not. See for example the walkers approaching the flock in this French video:

If there is a threat though they will certainly react! (I have been protected very well from an agressive intruder in the past). They also tend to distriminate between 'on territory' and off. A dog seen out and about away from its working situation can come across as a very different dog to that seen at home working. I always recommend that people dont make their decisions on the breed based on dogs they only see away from their home environment. Pyrs can and often do go from working with a flock one day to socialising at a show or other event the next.

[casowner]

We are heading back from Victoria atm and just drove past a free range turkey farm and saw a maremma in with them just as I was reading this thread

[BJean]

Charmaine looks after 30,000 free range chickens with help from

Chub (Anatolian) & Bjorn (Central Asian).

[espinay2]

We are heading back from Victoria atm and just drove past a free range turkey farm and saw a maremma in with them just as I was reading this thread

Grace's litter sister Skippy and a another close sibling Vianne guard free range chickens in Victoria :-)

[trojka]

I believe the dogs are very much the result of their homelands.

The Maremma is from Italy.

Anatolian from Turkey.

Central Asian from Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan.

The Anatolian had less day to day interaction with people than the Central Asian, it needed to protect a lone shepherd and his flock. Being good with people was not a requirement. It was necessary that the dogs did not need people The dogs were never part of the family. The dogs of Central Asia were family guardians, expected to be a canine warrior of sorts and evolved to be physically so hardy because basically there is nothing there to support them. I dont mean 1000 years ago or 100 years ago. I mean even now.

The landscape of Italy I cannot relate as I have not been there to look at the dogs in their environment, but if you extrapolate what you know of the three geographical regions, and the histories of the peoples that lived on them, then you will also see and understand the psyches of the dogs who lived with them. It is probably true to say that the Central Asia dogs can be as volatile as the histories of the lands they are from. But they are also survivors. I arrived in Kazakhstan with a lot of speculation and arrogance about how we look after our dogs, and left humbled with a lot of admiration

and realisation there is so much for me to learn

Lilli, could you maybe explain this a little further?

Aggression towards those strange to the Anatolian was not selected against. It is not regarded as unusual if they show aggression and while they will not go from stop to go at provocation, their mindset is not set to do all they can to avoid attack.

This should not be confused with the bond they have towards their family/pack.

Anatolians are inextricably loyal. But just because you want them to accept somebody and not growl at them, it doesn't mean they will. Some Anatolians are very much one person dogs, it can make you feel quite chuffed that they have chosen you, but you have to remember that this generally means from their perspective, or Anatolian world Order: there is the sun that their owner basks in their rightful glory in, and then there is them. and a loonnnng long way way off, is everybody else on the planet.

Do you find that Anatolians bond to their family less than a Maremma?

The scenarios Steve was describing, with the house Maremmas and her children and visitors, would this be possible with an Anatolian of the right temperament and from the right lines?

Of course

It is just that the difference between Maremma and ASD in general is that the Anatolian may be more prone to exhibit aggression. Not at their family, but at what they dont know. The Antolian is defending its territory; the Maremma semes to have a more holistic approach and defends the pack.

The outcome is the same.

I am not sure how DA maremmas are, but ASD can be DA. Though not as DA as Central Asian. (**in general**)

Have you placed Anatolians in pet/predominantly non-working homes?

Yes and they will tell you their Anatolian is a big softy a lounge lizard smooch

If so, what are your experiences?

Anatolian can and do work really good as family companions / guardians

but imo everything depends on the temperament of the dog they start out with.

Base temperament is pretty much determined by the dogs lineage.

ie litter A, 7 out of 9 were sharp to extremely sharp, and none I would happily send to a suburban family home (rural family home okay).

litter B, 2 out of 7 were sharp, but really more willful than sharp, they were more gregarious than litter A.

litter A was a strong working line lineage; litter B, my soft female with v.assertive male.

Under what circumstances (or to what owner/family) would you recommend either breed over the other?

I recommend maremma or pyrenean mountain dogs or newfoundlands (depending on the context) to homes where I think it sounds like they really dont want the traits of an Anatolian. ie they may want a dog to only bark, to be gregarious and enjoy off lead areas, or things like play dates that an adult Anatolian doesn't really care about.

Sorry, lilli, I completely forgot to thank you for your reply, those answers definitely helped make things a little clearer.

With regards to the last part, I think I'm a little divided. When confronted with a real threat, I wouldn't mind a dog that doesn't just bark. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much management that would take. I certainly wouldn't want to constantly worry about what might happen if I made a mistake for some reason, or someone walked up a little close, visitors and their kids.....I wouldn't mind if the dog's not interested in play dates, but it wouldn't hurt if it was used to being taken out occasionally and wasn't completely miserable at such times. Espinay's description of the Pyr's temperament did appeal to me, especially the fact they seem to be able to adapt well to situations with more people coming and going.

If you don't mind, lilli, could you describe your "softer" girl a little more? How would an Anatolian of this temperament deal with such situations? What do you do in terms of management to prevent accidents?

It's so interesting reading about all these breeds, but just making me more confused. I think the problem is that I used to live with a Maremma cross that looked a lot like an Anatolian, so I may be a little confused already :D Maybe that's why I'm hoping for a Pyr/Maremma temperament in an Anatolian body. He was a fantastic dog.

[JulesP]

There are 3 Maremmas that look after chicken just around the corner from me. I stopped one day to let one back into the paddock as it was out. That was a rather nerve wracking experience. It seemed to work out I was trying to help though. I wouldn't walk my dogs past that house though as I am not convinced about the fencing!