Maremmas For Sheep Guarding?

[trojka]

What would be the difference in a Anatolian shepherd and a maremma?

In general:

The Anatolian is in the middle between Maremma and Central Asian, wrt using physical confrontation as their defence response.

By that I mean maremma innate response is to bark and warn from a distance,

Central Asian innate response is active physical confrontation;

Anatolian is generally warn first followed by physical confrontation.

That said, It depends on the lineage of the dog, some Anatolians you can leave out the front to bark at unknown arrivals and some you cannot, because they will attack unknown arrivals.

How they work is not the only difference, but it represents a lot about the dogs' general temperament and character traits.

Probably Anatolians are more likely to exhibit aggression towards people than the maremma, but you will have to check with steve.

Anatolians are expected to take the lead if there is leadership lacking and it is not unusual for this to manifest into human aggression if raised the wrong way. Generally if an Anatolian is 'not working out', it is because the dog is exhibitng aggresion towards the owner / family. Nothing wrog with the dog. Just the wrong temperament type for the home.

My ideal Anatolian has a strong pscychological ascendancy and I will use an alpha assertive temperament type in at least either the sire or dam when breeding. Not all Anatolian breeders share this ideal, nor will a whole litter be this way.

Yep maremmas are never aggressive and do all they can to avoid attacking.

I believe the dogs are very much the result of their homelands.

The Maremma is from Italy.

Anatolian from Turkey.

Central Asian from Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan.

The Anatolian had less day to day interaction with people than the Central Asian, it needed to protect a lone shepherd and his flock. Being good with people was not a requirement. It was necessary that the dogs did not need people The dogs were never part of the family. The dogs of Central Asia were family guardians, expected to be a canine warrior of sorts and evolved to be physically so hardy because basically there is nothing there to support them. I dont mean 1000 years ago or 100 years ago. I mean even now.

The landscape of Italy I cannot relate as I have not been there to look at the dogs in their environment, but if you extrapolate what you know of the three geographical regions, and the histories of the peoples that lived on them, then you will also see and understand the psyches of the dogs who lived with them. It is probably true to say that the Central Asia dogs can be as volatile as the histories of the lands they are from. But they are also survivors. I arrived in Kazakhstan with a lot of speculation and arrogance about how we look after our dogs, and left humbled with a lot of admiration

and realisation there is so much for me to learn

Lilli, could you maybe explain this a little further?

Do you find that Anatolians bond to their family less than a Maremma?

The scenarios Steve was describing, with the house Maremmas and her children and visitors, would this be possible with an Anatolian of the right temperament and from the right lines?

Have you placed Anatolians in pet/predominantly non-working homes? If so, what are your experiences?

Under what circumstances (or to what owner/family) would you recommend either breed over the other?

Sorry about the many questions, but it has been my dream for years to one day be owned by an Anatolian and I have read the entire LGD thread, and now this one. But I would of course want to get it right and have to think about whether a Maremma may be better suited than the breed of my dreams.

[Shazzapug]

When we were deciding between a MAreema and an Anatolian the difference I came up with is that the Mareema defended the flock, whereas an Anatolian defended its Territory and animals/humans within that territory. Our Gustave, an Anatolian from Lilli, is only 5 mths old but he knows when I bring home a new animal, can pick out of the house pugs which one is the new one, and barks at airplanes lol....but ignores the eagles. We have a Tennis court that doesnt get used for tennis, that is Gustaves place to go when I know the Telstra bloke is coming, or the SEC man to read the metre...and when he barks the whole time they are here he is told what a good boy he is...he knows he gets introduced to people we like that we want him to like too.

Since having Gustave we have not had Kangaroos sitting in the top paddock or the bottom paddock, we are on 40 acres...they still go in the front paddocks but these cannot be seen by Gustave.

[BJean]

I believe the dogs are very much the result of their homelands.

The Maremma is from Italy.

Anatolian from Turkey.

Central Asian from Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan.

The Anatolian had less day to day interaction with people than the Central Asian, it needed to protect a lone shepherd and his flock. Being good with people was not a requirement. It was necessary that the dogs did not need people The dogs were never part of the family. The dogs of Central Asia were family guardians, expected to be a canine warrior of sorts and evolved to be physically so hardy because basically there is nothing there to support them. I dont mean 1000 years ago or 100 years ago. I mean even now.

The landscape of Italy I cannot relate as I have not been there to look at the dogs in their environment, but if you extrapolate what you know of the three geographical regions, and the histories of the peoples that lived on them, then you will also see and understand the psyches of the dogs who lived with them. It is probably true to say that the Central Asia dogs can be as volatile as the histories of the lands they are from. But they are also survivors. I arrived in Kazakhstan with a lot of speculation and arrogance about how we look after our dogs, and left humbled with a lot of admiration

and realisation there is so much for me to learn

Lilli, could you maybe explain this a little further?

Aggression towards those strange to the Anatolian was not selected against. It is not regarded as unusual if they show aggression and while they will not go from stop to go at provocation, their mindset is not set to do all they can to avoid attack.

This should not be confused with the bond they have towards their family/pack.

Anatolians are inextricably loyal. But just because you want them to accept somebody and not growl at them, it doesn't mean they will. Some Anatolians are very much one person dogs, it can make you feel quite chuffed that they have chosen you, but you have to remember that this generally means from their perspective, or Anatolian world Order: there is the sun that their owner basks in their rightful glory in, and then there is them. and a loonnnng long way way off, is everybody else on the planet.

Do you find that Anatolians bond to their family less than a Maremma?

The scenarios Steve was describing, with the house Maremmas and her children and visitors, would this be possible with an Anatolian of the right temperament and from the right lines?

Of course

It is just that the difference between Maremma and ASD in general is that the Anatolian may be more prone to exhibit aggression. Not at their family, but at what they dont know. The Antolian is defending its territory; the Maremma semes to have a more holistic approach and defends the pack.

The outcome is the same.

I am not sure how DA maremmas are, but ASD can be DA. Though not as DA as Central Asian. (**in general**)

Have you placed Anatolians in pet/predominantly non-working homes?

Yes and they will tell you their Anatolian is a big softy a lounge lizard smooch

If so, what are your experiences?

Anatolian can and do work really good as family companions / guardians

but imo everything depends on the temperament of the dog they start out with.

Base temperament is pretty much determined by the dogs lineage.

ie litter A, 7 out of 9 were sharp to extremely sharp, and none I would happily send to a suburban family home (rural family home okay).

litter B, 2 out of 7 were sharp, but really more willful than sharp, they were more gregarious than litter A.

litter A was a strong working line lineage; litter B, my soft female with v.assertive male.

Under what circumstances (or to what owner/family) would you recommend either breed over the other?

I recommend maremma or pyrenean mountain dogs or newfoundlands (depending on the context) to homes where I think it sounds like they really dont want the traits of an Anatolian. ie they may want a dog to only bark, to be gregarious and enjoy off lead areas, or things like play dates that an adult Anatolian doesn't really care about.

Edited May 31, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

When we were deciding between a MAreema and an Anatolian the difference I came up with is that the Mareema defended the flock, whereas an Anatolian defended its Territory and animals/humans within that territory. Our Gustave, an Anatolian from Lilli, is only 5 mths old but he knows when I bring home a new animal, can pick out of the house pugs which one is the new one, and barks at airplanes lol....but ignores the eagles. We have a Tennis court that doesnt get used for tennis, that is Gustaves place to go when I know the Telstra bloke is coming, or the SEC man to read the metre...and when he barks the whole time they are here he is told what a good boy he is...he knows he gets introduced to people we like that we want him to like too.

Since having Gustave we have not had Kangaroos sitting in the top paddock or the bottom paddock, we are on 40 acres...they still go in the front paddocks but these cannot be seen by Gustave.

plus gustave is gawwwgeous :D

sorry that's really not important to the discussion

[myValkyrie]

When we were deciding between a MAreema and an Anatolian the difference I came up with is that the Mareema defended the flock, whereas an Anatolian defended its Territory and animals/humans within that territory. Our Gustave, an Anatolian from Lilli, is only 5 mths old but he knows when I bring home a new animal, can pick out of the house pugs which one is the new one, and barks at airplanes lol....but ignores the eagles. We have a Tennis court that doesnt get used for tennis, that is Gustaves place to go when I know the Telstra bloke is coming, or the SEC man to read the metre...and when he barks the whole time they are here he is told what a good boy he is...he knows he gets introduced to people we like that we want him to like too.

Since having Gustave we have not had Kangaroos sitting in the top paddock or the bottom paddock, we are on 40 acres...they still go in the front paddocks but these cannot be seen by Gustave.

That's really interesting - I find the Maremmas much more devoted to a specific territory whereas the Kangal/Anatolian's territory is extremely fluid ie. wherever she & what she perceives as her flock, happen to be

[Clyde]

In my one and only experience of the Maremma I would agree with you myValkrie. Another dog could chase chooks around my garden and if Snowy is in the garden, out of her paddock, she ignores it. But if it's in her paddock, well, it just wouldn't happen to start with.

She's running herself ragged this morning. There are men digging a trench down the neighbours drive which runs the length of her paddock. She'll neeed a stiff drink by the time I get home this avo.:D I can't lock her up as the men might not be there all day then the chooks are left open to a fox.

[Steve]

Steve, how would they go with dogs on lead with strangers?

We're in the process of looking for a 50-100 acre property to have a mixture of cattle, sheep and pigs so I'd like a maremma. If we find something in a suitable area I'd like to do a dog friendly farmstay, but not sure a maremma would take kindly to having strange dogs on the property. So maybe I'd be best not having one?

If you are out walking with a Maremma and a dog approaches on lead its no big deal but if a dog approaches off lead and gets into your space its going to try to guard you .As far as dogs on your property as long as you introduce them and show the Maremma you accept them.They accept whatever you accept.

[Steve]

They accept anything you accept .Bringing in a new animal here is no big deal. I walk in put it down and say dog meet new animal and they say Oh O.K..They will actually go out of their way to make friends and let the new kid know they are no threat and that they will look out for them.

That's what I was hoping. I'd love to get one now to bond onto myself, my existing dogs and horses (oh, plus the cats), but am planning on moving in the next 6 months so I think I should wait. I'm buying land with my mum, and am considering running agistmnent, so I'd want to be there before getting a LGD, so it would get used to people coming and going from the start (also so I then know the dog laws and if I need to get a permit as I already have 3 dogs). I assume in this case the dog would become good at discriminating between those coming in with good or bad intentions from the person's body language???

Yep its about body language but also about what is normal. The meter reader here is always more at risk than anyone else because he parks the car outside the gate and tries to walk in swinging his black thing he uses to read the meter.If he just did what everyone else does and drive in through the gate and held the black thing close to his body it would be nothing out of the ordinary. But when I see a stranger with a hat pulled down around his eyes and he walks through the gate swinging something I get a bit curious too so you cant blame the dog. I put a padlock on the gate now around the time the electricity has to be read so he cant just open it and walk in - he needs me to escort him.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

When we were deciding between a MAreema and an Anatolian the difference I came up with is that the Mareema defended the flock, whereas an Anatolian defended its Territory and animals/humans within that territory. Our Gustave, an Anatolian from Lilli, is only 5 mths old but he knows when I bring home a new animal, can pick out of the house pugs which one is the new one, and barks at airplanes lol....but ignores the eagles. We have a Tennis court that doesnt get used for tennis, that is Gustaves place to go when I know the Telstra bloke is coming, or the SEC man to read the metre...and when he barks the whole time they are here he is told what a good boy he is...he knows he gets introduced to people we like that we want him to like too.

Since having Gustave we have not had Kangaroos sitting in the top paddock or the bottom paddock, we are on 40 acres...they still go in the front paddocks but these cannot be seen by Gustave.

No I dont think I would agree with that Maremmas do defend the flock but they also defend the territory and anything considered normal with in it. The Maremmas take down eagles and crows.

[Steve]

Maremmas are definitely not dog aggressive. They do need a good boundry but because if not they guard the road and the neighbours property and there have even been some reports of the guarding the town.

We placed a pet maremma in a small country town. The dog would go ontot the road and bring a young toddler back home for its Mum who lived a few doors down. The odg woul bring the kid to the porch and sit between the steps and the kid and keep it there until Mum decided to come looking for it. It became quite famous for it. Though I always wondered about Mum and why she let the kid get into that position in the first place. The dog really did see allof the houses in the block as his - in that case the people who lived there loved it but as the dog got older the territory started to spread so it had to be bought back to staying in its own yard or it was trying to stop anyone who didnt live their coming in. The ranger got a bit antsy.

[Steve]

Ive told this story here before but will tell it again. We had a young boy out in the paddock and the kids came in to tell me there were several crow bodies lying around the paddock. Its pretty hard to kill a crow so we all went out and watched what was going on. The Maremma had moved out from the flock just a little and was for all the world looking like a sheep .He had his head down as if he were grazing and eating grass.The crows obviously were fooled into thinking he was a sheep out on its own and as they came in he pinged them. Crows do not fly over my paddocks which the Maremmas are in now - they fly around .

[Cheyd]

Fantastic thread, I am learning so much about these dogs, love the stories too Steve and Lilli

[Paula-]

Steve, you were saying that the maremma will accept whatever you accept. So if you took someone new down to meet the dog, it would accept them being there, but what if you had to go away and wanted that person to mind the place? Would they extend that acceptance to the person when you're not around? Thinking how you would get someone to feed the dog/stock, or do more if required (eg handle the dog if it needed emergency vet care).

[casowner]

I was originally on a waiting list for 2 years with a breeder for a Maremma and in the end gave up and found CAO's which was a better suit to us I think. The one thing that really put me off of the Maremma in the end was the stories of excessive barking, even though we are on property we have 9 neighbours that border our property and I was worried about the noise. I believe that they bark to warn off intruders whereas the CAO will be more proactive in removing threats. There are 2 x 18 month olds advertised down here at the moment (different owners) and both are on properties and 1 the ad says he is a barker "As is typical of his breed, he does bark alot." and the other is being rehomed due to wandering. I know all breeds have their own stories of behavioural traits but can barking on small properties become a real issue?

I used to work with a girl that had maremmas to guard her show dogs and I absolutely adored them and these two made me want one for several years.

[Steve]

Steve, you were saying that the maremma will accept whatever you accept. So if you took someone new down to meet the dog, it would accept them being there, but what if you had to go away and wanted that person to mind the place? Would they extend that acceptance to the person when you're not around? Thinking how you would get someone to feed the dog/stock, or do more if required (eg handle the dog if it needed emergency vet care).

As long as the dog has met them before and the people dont want to get all lovey dovey with the dog is no problem.

[Paula-]

Excellent

[BJean]

When we were deciding between a MAreema and an Anatolian the difference I came up with is that the Mareema defended the flock, whereas an Anatolian defended its Territory and animals/humans within that territory. Our Gustave, an Anatolian from Lilli, is only 5 mths old but he knows when I bring home a new animal, can pick out of the house pugs which one is the new one, and barks at airplanes lol....but ignores the eagles. We have a Tennis court that doesnt get used for tennis, that is Gustaves place to go when I know the Telstra bloke is coming, or the SEC man to read the metre...and when he barks the whole time they are here he is told what a good boy he is...he knows he gets introduced to people we like that we want him to like too.

Since having Gustave we have not had Kangaroos sitting in the top paddock or the bottom paddock, we are on 40 acres...they still go in the front paddocks but these cannot be seen by Gustave.

No I dont think I would agree with that Maremmas do defend the flock but they also defend the territory and anything considered normal with in it. The Maremmas take down eagles and crows.

In a working environment, yes the maremma defend what is normal in their territory but they defend the flock foremost. If we look at the maremma response their sense of territory is not as acute as flock(pack), hence they work in the style of bark and harry (protection), and often move flock away from the threat.

In the Anatolian response territory comes first and then flock/pack.

Central Asian sense of territory also comes first. The maremmas strength and point of difference wrt working styles, is that they tend to bond stronger with the animals. That is not to say Anatolian and Central Asian do not have an affinity towards what they share their environment with, but their working style requires a more acute sense of territory than maremma.

In order for the Anatolian and Central Asian to have an aggression response, their sense of territory must be breached. Maremma also work on this sense, but their sense of pack overules why maremma do not run out guns blazing towards the threat.

Removing birds of prey, snakes, rodents is role of all LGD imo. A lot of what the dogs react to is variances in what they perceive as normal.

Also Maremma work traditionally in more hilly areas than Anatolian. Anatolian on vast plains, sometimes rocky here and there, with occasional mountains, but not the same undulations and fertile growth as Italy. The dogs needs to be 'more' territorial or more reactive / aggressive defending the area because predators can move up closer more quickly in this environment and there is more expanse of land for the Anatolian to cover. Hence Anatolian build is longer legged, bigger ratio depth chest / lung capacity. If we tweak a dogs defence and territory a bit and make territory not as acute and to form pack bonds more important, we get a LGD that is more accepting of strangers in their territory and a LGD that can be farmhouse dog and also farm stock guard dog like the maremma.

I had a better photo of two dogs patrolling the plains and it showed the dogs lumbering on their own. The sheep are protected because the dogs are there, and the dogs are there because their shepherd is, but what gets the dogs to react is perceived breaches of the expanse of land (territory) that they perceive as theirs. The sheep are part of what is normal on their landscape. They are like the rocks. Something that belongs there. The dog's bond is not towards the sheep or the rocks but to each other, the shepherd and their territory bounds.

Edited June 1, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

This herd of sheep were in the care of two shepherds and their group of dogs, when we pulled up on the road the dogs ran down towards us, because we broke from what is normal ie cars are allowed to drive past but they do not stop.

When the shepherd walked over and was asked if it was okay for us to come out we did and by this time the sheep had gone far away but the dogs were interested in us. In the end one shepherd walked after the sheep and he called the dogs away and this photo is of the dogs running back to their shepherd.

The amount of land the dogs patrolled was as far as I could see.

Edited June 1, 2011 by lilli

[Clyde]

Steve, you were saying that the maremma will accept whatever you accept. So if you took someone new down to meet the dog, it would accept them being there, but what if you had to go away and wanted that person to mind the place? Would they extend that acceptance to the person when you're not around? Thinking how you would get someone to feed the dog/stock, or do more if required (eg handle the dog if it needed emergency vet care).

I am struggling with this at the moment. Snowy will only let children in her paddock, some select women and no men. I am feeling a bit stuck about going away for a weekend.

[Steve]

Steve, you were saying that the maremma will accept whatever you accept. So if you took someone new down to meet the dog, it would accept them being there, but what if you had to go away and wanted that person to mind the place? Would they extend that acceptance to the person when you're not around? Thinking how you would get someone to feed the dog/stock, or do more if required (eg handle the dog if it needed emergency vet care).

I am struggling with this at the moment. Snowy will only let children in her paddock, some select women and no men. I am feeling a bit stuck about going away for a weekend.

What do you mean she wont let them in? She was an older dog when you got her wasnt she? Do you know anything about her history?