Maremmas For Sheep Guarding?

[Steve]

Thanks Steve.

It seems like a major undertaking to take on ten (or more) dogs. They would obviously need to be fed every night, and we just don't go out to the mobs every day except at lambing time. There is no way in Haiti we could have ten large dogs hanging about the house yard when lambing isn't on, and we don't have time to drive to paddocks and feed dogs every night. We have three properties down here and they are 25 k's apart, so it's a long way to drive just to drop off dog food. As it is, the ewes are spread over 3,000 acres, and when they're not lambing, the sheep would be anywhere over 25,000 acres, so it's a big job to keep track of where the dogs are and go and feed them.

As you can tell, I need to do a heap more research!! And it is starting to sound like the Maremma option is more suited to smaller producers. Back to the drawing board!

But many thanks to everyone for the info

I think perhaps you havent understood.

The dogs never hang around the house paddocks they stay with the sheep every single minute of every single day whether they are lambing or not and you set up a feeding station . They live like sheep and In many situations humans dont sight the sheep or the dogs for days or on really big spreads 100,000 of thousands of acres for weeks. they are definitely not more suited to smaller spreads.

[Steve]

considering you're in WA would the Maremmas coat, which is made for an Italian climate, deal with the weather?

would a middle eastern breed like an Anatolian or CAO be a better choice?

No our Maremmas live in minus 7 up to 45 and cope very well. Any where a sheep can live a Maremma can live.

[Steve]

Exerpt fromthe above link.

Part of a case study.

The property

Dunluce is a 46,500 ha sheep and cattle property situated 36 km west of Hughenden in the Flinders

Shire, in north-west Queensland. Wild dog predation has steadily increased in the area, causing extensive damage to livestock,

especially sheep. As a result, the number of sheep producers in the area has steadily declined, with

many being forced out of business or switching to cattle.

Before the introduction of livestock guardian dogs, wild dog predation at Dunluce had been increasing.

Sheep numbers had varied over the years, ranging from as high as 40,000 down to only 7000 in the

nineties. Dunluce was running 20,000 sheep in 2002 when sheep losses peaked at 15%. This

represented a total loss of AU$30,000 in wild dog-incurred damage to sheep, including killed and maimed sheep, lost lambs, and reduced wool

production due to stress. The value of lost and maimed calves that year is hard to estimate but was probably substantial.

They introduced 24 Maremmas on Dunluce to work with sheep.

From that time onwards, the losses to wild dog predation gradually decreased. Three years after the

introduction of Maremmas the total loss of sheep per year has dropped to 4% and has remained around

this level ever since. The majority of these losses are not predation-related and Ninian and Ann believe

that the total loss of sheep to wild dog predation averages about ten individuals per year. Wild dog pressure on

neighbouring properties has not decreased.

All the Maremmas were trained to use a self-feeder, to walk on a lead and to be tied up, and to accept Ninian and Ann handling them. However,

care was taken to make sure they did not become overly people-friendly.

Current setup

The paddocks on Dunluce range in size from 400 – 1600 ha. Rotational grazing is used, with the aim being

that 25% of the property is grazed at one time and 75% is resting. The Maremmas are accustomed to being

moved with the sheep when they are rotated to a new paddock.

Depending on the type of sheep in a paddock, the Maremmas are working with flocks of 1000 – 1500

ewes, or with flocks of 3000 – 3500 wethers.

Flocks can vary greatly in size depending on the season, numbering between 300 and 3500 sheep.

The Maremmas adapt to the varying numbers and individuals without difficulty.

The Maremmas are still working in groups of one to four and are free to distribute themselves over

the property as they like. Some Maremmas roam between different paddocks and dogs occasionally

leave their flock to provide backup for another group of dogs that has detected trouble. In general, all the

sheep on the property have one or more Maremmas with them most of the time. Ninian and Ann are now

familiar with the personality of each dog and its

Recently, three Maremmas have been bonded to a group of cattle as well and are currently working with

350 maiden heifers. The aim is to get Maremmas set up to work with all the breeding cows on the

property, as well as with the sheep, to provide protection for calves.

Ongoing husbandry

The Maremmas have self-feeders with ad lib dry dog food available to them in their paddocks. These selffeeders

keep the dog food dry and prevent livestock from getting to it. The feeders are checked and refilled

twice a week when the water run is carried out and fresh meat is also supplied at this time.

[♥Bruno♥]

Thanks Steve! Ok, I did have the total wrong end of the stick!

So really they are treated like sheep, not like dogs (don't mean that in a negative way). Obviously they would receive different food, but apart from that, they just hang about in the paddocks with the sheep.

The Dunlunce case study is just amazing. Have printed it out for hubby to read

[casowner]

What about grooming Steve? Don't they have problems with undercoat and burrs if not groomed regularly and if they are left with the flock with minimal human contact how do they go with being handled for grooming/medical procedures?

[Steve]

What about grooming Steve? Don't they have problems with undercoat and burrs if not groomed regularly and if they are left with the flock with minimal human contact how do they go with being handled for grooming/medical procedures?

No definitely not - I brush my house Maremma but the ones in the paddock never ever get any grooming .

The dogs in the paddock still come up to say hello when their humans come and they are handled and cope with it all really well.Its a good idea in the early days to train them to walk on a lead in case you need that but Ive never groomed a working Maremma and even in spring time when they shed they simply run along the fences and the fur falls out in clumps.

Yes bruno they are just like the sheep and because of that everything you know about training dogs goes right out the window .They are bred to be independent and make decisions on their own about what to do without humans around so what you get with them is born in and not able to be trained in.

[Clyde]

When you see them on TV as working dogs they have enormous dreadlocks on them which I think just blow out when they have a coat drop. Lots of online sources say not to groom them. It really sounds like an awful life to be honest but I know with just my one (and first) Maremma she wants to live in the paddock.

I had to lock Snowy up in the runs today as I had a lot of visitors when I let her out this avo she ran straight back to her paddock gate and sat there waiting for me to let her in. She immediately walked the boundary fence barking and peeing, announcing to any would be predators that she's back! I could watch her all day, she is fascinating. You think you know dogs and then you get a Maremma....

[persephone]

Why does it seem an awful life? I think it is a great life! The dog is doing a lot of thinking for itself- it has a pack .. it gets the opportunity to guard/hunt.. it can dig/bark/roll in manure/lie in the sun /swim if there are opportunities ....It gets food provided, vet care ..human contact in a basic ,undemanding way /exercise as way of life, not a structured event ...

Edited May 28, 2011 by persephone

[koalathebear]

Why does it seem an awful life? I think it is a great life! The dog is doing a lot of thinking for itself- it has a pack .. it gets the opportunity to guard/hunt.. it can dig/bark/roll in manure/lie in the sun /swim if there are opportunities ....It gets food provided, vet care ..human contact in a basic ,undemanding way /exercise as way of life, not a structured event ...

I guess it just seems awful because they're out there with the sheep and not with the humans Out of interest, after you get a maremma, apart from the bonding it with the stock training, what other training should it receive? Any basic obedience etc?

[persephone]

I guess it just seems awful because they're out there with the sheep and not with the humans

that's thinking like a human ;)

AFAIK.,maremmas should not be 'trained' in obedience,etc. they need to be handleable ..and friendly with their owners/able to be vet checked- and that's about all.

They don't need to respond to our words- they KNOW how to sit/lie down/trot/pick things up in their mouths/jump over things.. The thing is, they get to do them at times appropriate to them , and what they are doing.

Unfortunately I don't have any ......... but I would love to one day have a big paddock or 3 ,with several maremmas ,just being dogs

[espinay2]

Out of interest, after you get a maremma, apart from the bonding it with the stock training, what other training should it receive? Any basic obedience etc?

Really IMO the basics are to lead, to ride in a vehicle and to be handled all over. These allow a dog to be caught, inspected, moved to another location when required (with or without sheep) and recieve health and veterinary care with limited stress to the dog and limited issues (including time management and occupational health and safety issues) for the person managing/handling the dog.

[Steve]

As pets you can knock yourself out and think you have them trained - until they perceive a threat then any training is out the wndow.

Ive been very lucky because I have them working in the paddocks and in the house. Ive placed them on big properties and small. Ive placed them as guardians to autistic kids and elderly old ladies.

Ive watched them with Ragdoll kittens and children. In some of these situations they work and exaggerate their body language to make the animal or human know they are no threat until they become dependent on them.

The one we placed with an 82 year old lady goes with her when she opens the door and sits beside her quietly until the person outside the door puts their hand on the handle .Then its full on barking, hackles up and scary stuff - dont you dare come in that door or you are dead. If the owner puts her hand on the handle to let them in the dog turns and waits for the visitor to enter without a word .He then sits in the corner like an ornament until the visitor stands up - then the dog sits up and watches that they arent going to threaten his human. My point is no matter how much you think the dog is trained if its turned on because it is concerned about a threat its instinct all the way. No training makes the dog bark if you try to come in that old lady's door - it worked that out for itself. She loves him to bits and says he changed her life as she sleeps soundly knowing he will look after her.

If they take away my Maremma when Im an old lady Ill come back and haunt them.

[Steve]

Certain times of the year mine get dreadlocks but they deal with that themselves.

Usually with mine its because they lie in the water troughs or swim in the dam and then make mud bricks by rolling in the red dirt.

They dig holes to keep cool and use as wind breaks and most often choose the highest ground to sit on to watch the animals they are looking after.

Through the day you think they are mooching, sunbaking and not doing their job but they are always on.

[Ons]

Why does it seem an awful life? I think it is a great life! The dog is doing a lot of thinking for itself- it has a pack .. it gets the opportunity to guard/hunt.. it can dig/bark/roll in manure/lie in the sun /swim if there are opportunities ....It gets food provided, vet care ..human contact in a basic ,undemanding way /exercise as way of life, not a structured event ...

dogs doing what they are bred for - absolutely fantastic.

this thread is just so interesting, thank you everyone for sharing all their wealth of knowledge!

[Sayreovi]

Would a maremma (or any LGD) protect pet dogs the way they would livestock?

Say you got a maremma for a 'pet' and had other dogs, would they extend the same protective behaviour of the owner over the other dogs even if owner wasn't present?

[Steve]

Would a maremma (or any LGD) protect pet dogs the way they would livestock?

Say you got a maremma for a 'pet' and had other dogs, would they extend the same protective behaviour of the owner over the other dogs even if owner wasn't present?

Yes mine guard the beagles and the cats.

[Kaffy Magee]

I find this fascinating. Do you leave them out with the flock from babies or are they only put out full time when older? Do you have dogs andbitches? What happens if the bitches come in to season, will the dogs leave their flock to follow the bitches scent or should you only have bitches? Then what happens with stray dogs or wild dogs, will the bitches allow them to mate? And if they get Pregnant do they whelp out in the paddock or does the owner bring them up to the house, which I imagine they wouldnt likebeing taken away from their flock and what they know to an unfamiliar environment. Thanks for the info it's very interesting stuff.

[SpotTheDog]

Steve, if you had to compare a maremma with a central asian ovcharka, what would be the main differences? (I ask this question from an awareness that both are flock guardian breeds, and know little or nothing else about them other than absorbing what I'm being told here).

[Steve]

Steve, if you had to compare a maremma with a central asian ovcharka, what would be the main differences? (I ask this question from an awareness that both are flock guardian breeds, and know little or nothing else about them other than absorbing what I'm being told here).

Its difficult for me to compare as Im not that up with the Central Asian but my understanding is that Maremmas are more user friendly for humans. That may be because I know my own breed and Im more comfortable with it but Im sure Lilli would be able to fill in the gaps with the CA.

[Steve]

I find this fascinating. Do you leave them out with the flock from babies or are they only put out full time when older? Do you have dogs andbitches? What happens if the bitches come in to season, will the dogs leave their flock to follow the bitches scent or should you only have bitches? Then what happens with stray dogs or wild dogs, will the bitches allow them to mate? And if they get Pregnant do they whelp out in the paddock or does the owner bring them up to the house, which I imagine they wouldnt likebeing taken away from their flock and what they know to an unfamiliar environment. Thanks for the info it's very interesting stuff.

You put them in with the species of animals you are bonding them with ideally between 6 and 12 weeks .

When they are horny or on heat they are still dogs and the males will seek out a female and a female will allow any old boy to mate with her. Its why most times they are desexed and then there isnt a problem. If they remain entire the farmer has to be aware of that risk and manage it.

I bring mine in out of the paddock to whelp in the house but most working dog breeders allow them to whelp in a shed with a swing door where they can get into their puppies but also work and of course they start to train their own pups at about 5 weeks to work too. Some breeders feel they shouldnt be handled as this supposedly interupts their natural instict to bond but that isnt my experience and I want a dog I can handle and not one which hasnt be socialised with humans as well as the animals they live with. Its why my puppies are able to go into a working home or pet home with ease and thats the way I like it.

I have a girl here who has been out with the sheep since she was 6 weeks old and when she is in whelp I bring her inside to my lounge room about a week before she is due.She sits with her back to me for 2 days and tells me she wants to go back to her lambs but then settles down where there is no difference between her and the bitch which has been inside all of her life.She would blow up before she went to the toot in the house and Ive never even had an accident. though she is only inside when she is in whelp and has never been house trained. She lets the kids [ human] in and out of the whelping box and is a perfect house guest . At 3 weeks she starts to go back to work for several hours a day and only comes in now and then to check on her pups and feed them .The biggest problem I have is that she allows the lambs to drink from her so I have to manage that. At 6 weeks I allow her to work again with any puppies which are going to sheep work and that gives the pups 2 weeks head start for when they go home and start working. She comes in to play with and tell the rest of the litter she still loves them and encourages them to like humans and not be frightened etc but its her choice as to how much time she spends working or being with the puppies destined for chicken farms, etc or pets. The ones sold as pets I get to love and cuddle more but I tell them all I love them and they reciprocate in kind. There is nothing in the whole world more loveable and more beautiful than a baby Maremma - every bit of the way they act and look is designed to make you love them and it works. Ive got a litter here at the moment which is just turning 6 weeks - its heaven.

Its not kind to the ones going to working homes to allow them to live in airconditioned comfort on satin pillows because when they go home its minus freezing and out in the paddock - better if they are ready for that and that is what the breed is designed for.