♥Bruno♥ Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Hi everyone We are currently lambing and losing up to 50 lambs per night (that's $7,500 in one night). We have obviously done everything we can legally do to stop the fox attacks, but we are now desperate for another solution. Baiting, shooting, traps and luring have all been successful, but there is obviously just a lot more foxes out this year than we could have ever estimated. We are having 20 to 30 baits taken per night (could be taken by more than one fox of course) so we would have expected to see a rapid decrease in attacks, but unfortunatly this hasn't been the case. We went shooting and shot 13 foxes in 2 hours. Numbers like that are just unprecedented around here. The last two seasons have seen excellent fox breeding conditions, and they are almost in plague proportions now. Some nights it is only 5 or 6, some nights it is 20, and the worst night was 50 dead lambs. We have had them autopsied and the foxes are simply squashing their wind pipes. Sometimes there is no sign of a fox attack apart from the teeth imprint around the neck. They generally eat the first couple, then just chase and kill the next few for fun. So we are now looking into Maremma dogs. Does anyone have any experience with them as sheep guardians? Do you need one dog per mob? We have 7 mobs lambing at the moment. What do the dogs do the rest of the year? Are they general sheepdogs too, or more pet type dogs when not guarding lambs? ANy info would be well appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 In your situation I would definitely get some maremmas, that is a lot of stock to keep losing. I only know the bare bones about them, but they live with the sheep full time so you'd leave them with the mob between lambing. I'm sure the maremma people will fill you in, but I'd start looking right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 bruno that's awful . AFAIK maremmas live with the sheep all the time ... and so guard them all the time ... they do not 'work' sheep .. just live with them as they would with a dog pack ...and are not really 'pets' You would need more than one .. and I guess they would need to grow with your sheep ? Have you looked at these things ? LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 here- this story may help ...LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Call Andrea from Maremma Rescue. She will answer all your questions and is a huge help. We would be lost without our gorgeous girl Snowy who we got from Andrea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.c Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Some friends of ours have a goat farm, I think they have about 70 or so goats at the moment and they have 3 maremmas, two young ones (about 2 years old)and then the old one who is about 7 I think. They have a fair bit of property, about 10 hectares I think and the maremmas guard the herd from foxes, dingoes and protect the baby goats from eagles and the like. The farm is a bit out of town and our friends have only just moved out to the farm, for years the dogs have lived on the farm on their own with our friends going out to feed them every day. They aren't friendly and definitely aren't pets, they mostly just ignore all humans except for their owner which is what you want them to do I guess. I don't know too much about it but I know that they have been very happy with their maremmas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♥Bruno♥ Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thanks for the info everyone. Monique we have about 5000 ewes lambing over about 3,000 acres, so that's why I wanted to know how many dogs would be necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.c Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 hahaha possibly more than 3 then! That's a lot of sheep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myValkyrie Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 here- this story may help ...LINK These guys are a bit further west from us & have made really good use of Maremmas in a large scale grazier situation. We have them on a much smaller scale & with goats rather than sheep but they still make a huge difference to losses. We have found they work best in pairs or threes with their stock - foxes & wild dogs will quickly learn to simply lure a single dog away from the mob. They don't herd their stock but will lead them ie out to feed & back to their camp at night and will also bunch them up & push them to somewhere they consider safe if there is a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casowner Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Bruno some farmers on large properties are using donkeys as they are grazers and are highly protective, they have been known to kill pumas overseas. My mini jenny Willow has killed a fox before and has attacked dogs on the property (foxies) but as she is way too people orientated and spoilt she gets too pushy with our sheep. I have no doubt my big gelding would take on a fox/dog especially after the noise he made the other night Donkey as flock guard This is also very intersesting and goes through different breeds of LGDs, donkeys, alpacas etc Animals for Guarding Livestock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♥Bruno♥ Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks Cas - I never thought of donkeys. A few people around here have Alpacas and everyone says they are a waste of time and money and are just a marketing gimmick. There are constant Give Away ads in the local paper, ex "sheep guardians", so that puts me off them. One of my chickens had her tail bitten off last night, so they are obviously out in force. Thankfully the chook pen is fox proof, but her tail must have been sticking through the wire as she roosted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Steve breeds (or used to breed) Maremmas....give her a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Hi everyone We are currently lambing and losing up to 50 lambs per night (that's $7,500 in one night). We have obviously done everything we can legally do to stop the fox attacks, but we are now desperate for another solution. Baiting, shooting, traps and luring have all been successful, but there is obviously just a lot more foxes out this year than we could have ever estimated. We are having 20 to 30 baits taken per night (could be taken by more than one fox of course) so we would have expected to see a rapid decrease in attacks, but unfortunatly this hasn't been the case. We went shooting and shot 13 foxes in 2 hours. Numbers like that are just unprecedented around here. The last two seasons have seen excellent fox breeding conditions, and they are almost in plague proportions now. Some nights it is only 5 or 6, some nights it is 20, and the worst night was 50 dead lambs. We have had them autopsied and the foxes are simply squashing their wind pipes. Sometimes there is no sign of a fox attack apart from the teeth imprint around the neck. They generally eat the first couple, then just chase and kill the next few for fun. So we are now looking into Maremma dogs. Does anyone have any experience with them as sheep guardians? Do you need one dog per mob? We have 7 mobs lambing at the moment. What do the dogs do the rest of the year? Are they general sheepdogs too, or more pet type dogs when not guarding lambs? ANy info would be well appreciated. Thanks. We have Maremmas - the year before we bought them we lost 500 lambs and Ive never lost one since. They live 24 hours a day every day of the year with the sheep regardless of whether they are lambing or not. How many you need is about how many in each mob. They work differently with two in the paddock than they do with one and they dont work like any working dog you have ever known - they dont round em up like your borders and kelpies do they move them by being the flock leader. Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 You are welcome to give me a ring 0269276707 and Ill fill you in on the details. You cant just take older Maremmas which havent been working with sheep - they have to be specifically bonded with sheep especially if you have that many. You would be looking at around ten to do the job you need done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♥Bruno♥ Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks Steve. It seems like a major undertaking to take on ten (or more) dogs. They would obviously need to be fed every night, and we just don't go out to the mobs every day except at lambing time. There is no way in Haiti we could have ten large dogs hanging about the house yard when lambing isn't on, and we don't have time to drive to paddocks and feed dogs every night. We have three properties down here and they are 25 k's apart, so it's a long way to drive just to drop off dog food. As it is, the ewes are spread over 3,000 acres, and when they're not lambing, the sheep would be anywhere over 25,000 acres, so it's a big job to keep track of where the dogs are and go and feed them. As you can tell, I need to do a heap more research!! And it is starting to sound like the Maremma option is more suited to smaller producers. Back to the drawing board! But many thanks to everyone for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 bruno... did you read THIS ARTICLE I posted earlier? they have many thousands of sheep and acres ....... and maremmas . I hardly think they drive out & feed them every day ... they probably top up feeding stations with dry every so often.... and provide meat when they are out on a water run or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 LGD's can be worth their weight in gold. They definitely earn their keep and your respect (and can save you major $ losses). Definitely agree with suggestion to talk to Andrea. I can perhaps get you the contact for someone I know who Andrea has helped recently to overcome just your problem. He may have some first hand insight for you of how it can operate on a larger more remote property. Also check out the links on my website links page - the library page on the www.lgd.org website is a particularly good resource. Also check out http://www.feral.org.au/guardian-dogs/ which is a recently produced Australian manual. Dogs will likely require you to change the way you manage your flock. They do live with the flock full time. they are not herding dogs - they bond with the flock and protect them. How many dogs you need will depend on your predator load and setup. There are ways to manage 'range' flock guards (eg the use of 'feeding stations') but you will still need to visit and montior on a very regular basis. The dogs are your partner in flock care and management. I guess in the end it is a matter of doing the sums and a cost benefit analysis on how much trouble they would be versus how much money they will save/make you. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Great link, espinay2 thanks! http://www.feral.org.au/guardian-dogs/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 considering you're in WA would the Maremmas coat, which is made for an Italian climate, deal with the weather? would a middle eastern breed like an Anatolian or CAO be a better choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♥Bruno♥ Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thanks espinay and persephone, for the links. I am on shaped speed at the moment (damn crappy satellite internet!) so will check them out at an off-peak time. Thanks again for the info, I really do appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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