Excrutiatingly Stubborn Dog

[Keira&Phoenix]

As said above Nekhbet has some great advice.

The only thing I can suggest is reward removal for one, you can try time outs ie: you ask for a sit etc, he ignores you too bad time out (in a crate, small toilet room etc) this is the closest I ever come to "punishment" or you could call it a conaequence.

The other thing you can try is making food higher value for him so instead of feeding from a bowl try cutting brekky up into treat size pieces or at least smaller peices and as you are getting ready for work in the morning etc just randomly ask him to do things and he gets some of his brekky for doing it, same for dinner so on and so forth. If he refuses to do what you ask he misses out on brekky, then he may be more willing to do it at dinner time, if he isn't too bad no dinner, try again the next day, eventually he will start to work for the food. And it won't hurt him if he misses a day or two of food.

Good luck. I love having a super food motivated dog it makes things just that much simpler (although you can't rely on it forever anyways but still nice to start with :D)

Edited May 24, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[Nekhbet]

The only thing I can suggest is reward removal for one, you can try time outs ie: you ask for a sit etc, he ignores you too bad time out (in a crate, small toilet room etc) this is the closest I ever come to "punishment" or you could call it a conaequence.

Why dont you just put the dog in position? It wont learn anything from time outs if you do them for small stuff like this because you're not increasing the dogs motivation to actually do the behaviour.

[persephone]

Must admit to not understanding a time-out for not sitting? Time out for being very boisterous /bouncing/barking etc ...but I usually say "sit".. no compliance? Well dog gets put in a sit, then praised lots ..so "sit" doesn't mean "ignore and be put out of sight".. "sit" means "I do such & such and get praise"

[Nekhbet]

because it's the huggey wuggey hands off way that apparently works. Apparently being the operative word in the equation.

[Keira&Phoenix]

No need to be smart because you don't like a particular method Nekhbet. This is the technique my trainers use, I trust them implicitly, they have over 20 years experience.

I didn't say "tell the dog to sit and then immediately put it in time out" did I. I said ask for a sit and if the dog ignores you can try time out, it is a personal choice if Leelaa wants to try that but I certainly didn't say teach the dog that sit means "ignore and be put out of sight" by immediately confining the dog after asking for a sit. A better option for Leelaa would be to not ask for a sit unless she knows she is going to get it but this is an option if she does ask for a sit and the dog ignores her, so that she isn't teaching the dog it is ok to ignore her commands. I certainly don't recommend this method as a fix for the problem just one tool to help fix the problem along with other methods.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I get my dog fired up with games of chase me (not the dog), or tug.

But she's a lot smaller than a GSD. I've been wondering how people fire up GSD because they're so big, a lot of the games that work with smaller dogs are not so good with GSD.

I do know one who gets very excited about food.

Nothing like skipping a meal and changing the treats to something more yummy like roast beef cut up into little pieces and hoping your hand doesn't disappear to the wrist when rewarding a GSD?

[persephone]

Kiera & Phoenix ... having not done 'time outs '... for obedience training ... just to settle a dog down.... can you (or someone) explain how it works?

I am lying on the bed, my dog comes mooching along and annoys me .. I say "Sit,Hamlet" he doesn't .. he just stands there..then wanders off ... I get up, take him by the collar and put him in the bathroom for a few minutes. he lies down on the mat & goes to sleep....

how does this teach Hamlet to pay attention to my command? Honest question.... because I can't grasp the concept, sorry.

[Nekhbet]

No need to be smart because you don't like a particular method Nekhbet. This is the technique my trainers use, I trust them implicitly, they have over 20 years experience.

I didn't say "tell the dog to sit and then immediately put it in time out" did I. I said ask for a sit and if the dog ignores you can try time out, it is a personal choice if Leelaa wants to try that but I certainly didn't say teach the dog that sit means "ignore and be put out of sight" by immediately confining the dog after asking for a sit. A better option for Leelaa would be to not ask for a sit unless she knows she is going to get it but this is an option if she does ask for a sit and the dog ignores her, so that she isn't teaching the dog it is ok to ignore her commands. I certainly don't recommend this method as a fix for the problem just one tool to help fix the problem along with other methods.

And you practice pack separation to ultimately teach what? Dog doesnt comply so gets locked up for a bit - are you sure your dog actually understands what you want from it or are you just putting it elsewhere because you think the dog is being purposely obstinate. Would it not be smarter to put the dog into position, mark and reward the behaviour so the dog knows how to win?

As for not asking for a sit unless she gets it, if the dog barely wants to sit you will find the owner will never end up asking for a sit. What is the point of that?

I dont like hands off dog training despite its popularity. If I put the dogs butt on the ground when I say SIT and show it what I want, then reward for compliance and increasingly better behaviour I KNOW my dog is learning it and fast. Clearer for both them and you and isn't that what we all want? There is no shame in putting your dog in the physical position you want it in in order to learn. None at all. I'm not advocating manhandling or brute force at all there is a big difference in helping and just forcing.

[corvus]

I think sometimes time outs are a bit wishy washy because it's hard to time out a dog quickly enough to make the association clear. Having said that, if they are aversive to the dog and paired with a marker or can be used very quickly, there's no reason why they shouldn't work.

The real huggey wuggey hands off method is to not even bother with a consequence if the dog doesn't comply. There's good reason to believe the dog doesn't actually know what you're asking them. In which case any consequence you provide is to doing whatever they are doing instead of complying with the command. Us huggey wuggey hands off trainers are more interested in finding things to reward than things to punish. If you look, you generally find it. If you want to use rewards, I think it helps to get into the habit of looking for things to reward. We had a dog here for a week that didn't take treats. It turned out he would work for boiled heart, so we started from there and just started rewarding him for doing things he would do anyway just because we liked them. Come inside when asked? Good boy! Here's your heart. Within a few days he had realised that in our house opportunities for reward come up all the time, and by the end of the week he was working for any food treat on offer, despite normally being a finicky eater and having his owners convinced he was not interested in treats. We did not have to withold any rewards from him. We just had to teach him that he CAN earn rewards, and give him lots of opportunities to do so. Once he was earning them several times a day he got a lot more interested in food.

[persephone]

We did not have to withold any rewards from him. We just had to teach him that he CAN earn rewards, and give him lots of opportunities to do so. Once he was earning them several times a day he got a lot more interested in food.

yep! Sounds sensible

[Keira&Phoenix]

Kiera & Phoenix ... having not done 'time outs '... for obedience training ... just to settle a dog down.... can you (or someone) explain how it works?

I am lying on the bed, my dog comes mooching along and annoys me .. I say "Sit,Hamlet" he doesn't .. he just stands there..then wanders off ... I get up, take him by the collar and put him in the bathroom for a few minutes. he lies down on the mat & goes to sleep....

how does this teach Hamlet to pay attention to my command? Honest question.... because I can't grasp the concept, sorry.

Forgive me I am not very good at vocalising things in a way that makes sense LOL but I will try.

Basically it is a form of reward removal rather than a punishment as such. You need to find a smaller space than a bathroom ie: a toilet room (with just the toiler in it not a full bathroom) or a small laundry or a crate. You are only supposed to leave them there for 2 mins or if they are crying/whinging until they quiet down.

So it is supposed to work as reward removal (removal of freedom). So you ask for a sit/stay or whatever, dog ignores you use a marker, for instance I use "too bad" take dog by collar and crate for a couple minutes or until quiet. I also use it if I catch her doing something naughty ie: putting feet onto the kitchen counter to try and steal food etc.

I also use this (reward removal) when walking my dogs but in a different way so I put on an infin8 head harness but don't do it up properly, if they start pulling I say "too bad" and put the infin8 on properly.

Once again I apologise if this doesn't really explain it properly I really suck at vocalising things, I can usually say it well in my head then it just doesn't sound as good on "paper" as it were.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[wuffles]

Putting my dog in position doesn't make him do it next time.

[Keira&Phoenix]

No need to be smart because you don't like a particular method Nekhbet. This is the technique my trainers use, I trust them implicitly, they have over 20 years experience.

I didn't say "tell the dog to sit and then immediately put it in time out" did I. I said ask for a sit and if the dog ignores you can try time out, it is a personal choice if Leelaa wants to try that but I certainly didn't say teach the dog that sit means "ignore and be put out of sight" by immediately confining the dog after asking for a sit. A better option for Leelaa would be to not ask for a sit unless she knows she is going to get it but this is an option if she does ask for a sit and the dog ignores her, so that she isn't teaching the dog it is ok to ignore her commands. I certainly don't recommend this method as a fix for the problem just one tool to help fix the problem along with other methods.

And you practice pack separation to ultimately teach what? Dog doesnt comply so gets locked up for a bit - are you sure your dog actually understands what you want from it or are you just putting it elsewhere because you think the dog is being purposely obstinate. Would it not be smarter to put the dog into position, mark and reward the behaviour so the dog knows how to win?

As for not asking for a sit unless she gets it, if the dog barely wants to sit you will find the owner will never end up asking for a sit. What is the point of that?

I dont like hands off dog training despite its popularity. If I put the dogs butt on the ground when I say SIT and show it what I want, then reward for compliance and increasingly better behaviour I KNOW my dog is learning it and fast. Clearer for both them and you and isn't that what we all want? There is no shame in putting your dog in the physical position you want it in in order to learn. None at all. I'm not advocating manhandling or brute force at all there is a big difference in helping and just forcing.

I don't practice pack separation the dog is in time out for no longer than 2 mintues, I don't think that is practicing pack separation because it is such a short period of time. No I don't think my dog is being obstinate on purpose, she isn't a human. Maybe I should stop calling it timeout because people associate that with children and just call it reward removal.

I don't believe in helping a dog into a position, if that is too hands off than that is fine with me because that is the way I choose to train my dogs and that is the way I am trained to train my dogs.

To start off with (ie: puppy or training a new dog) I use food lures and rewards, then change that into hand signals then add a voice command but I remove lure as soon as I have hand signals working (obviously I continue to reward although after a while I also phase that out so it is irregular rewards) but I never actually move the dog into the position.

I think sometimes time outs are a bit wishy washy because it's hard to time out a dog quickly enough to make the association clear. Having said that, if they are aversive to the dog and paired with a marker or can be used very quickly, there's no reason why they shouldn't work.

The real huggey wuggey hands off method is to not even bother with a consequence if the dog doesn't comply. There's good reason to believe the dog doesn't actually know what you're asking them. In which case any consequence you provide is to doing whatever they are doing instead of complying with the command. Us huggey wuggey hands off trainers are more interested in finding things to reward than things to punish. If you look, you generally find it. If you want to use rewards, I think it helps to get into the habit of looking for things to reward. We had a dog here for a week that didn't take treats. It turned out he would work for boiled heart, so we started from there and just started rewarding him for doing things he would do anyway just because we liked them. Come inside when asked? Good boy! Here's your heart. Within a few days he had realised that in our house opportunities for reward come up all the time, and by the end of the week he was working for any food treat on offer, despite normally being a finicky eater and having his owners convinced he was not interested in treats. We did not have to withold any rewards from him. We just had to teach him that he CAN earn rewards, and give him lots of opportunities to do so. Once he was earning them several times a day he got a lot more interested in food.

I agree with the bolded statement which is why we are trained to use a marker such as "too bad"

I prefer just reward training and my trainers have classes that are purely about catching and shaping positive behaviours etc but sometimes just sometimes there is a situation where you need to use reward removal.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[persephone]

Thanks for the explanation.... appreciated. It sounds a bit complicated for me .... giving the dog time/attention in order to NOT give it time/attention ... but if it works well for you and your dog - then fine .

[Erny]

I get my dog fired up with games of chase me (not the dog), or tug.

But she's a lot smaller than a GSD. I've been wondering how people fire up GSD because they're so big, a lot of the games that work with smaller dogs are not so good with GSD.

It's all in the training, Mrs RB. I tend to find people train their dogs according to what and how they need. People with smaller dogs (I'm speaking generally here) might not bother to train their boisterous OT little dogs to exhibit some self-control in amongst their "gee'd up'ness". People with bigger dogs need to.

I train using drive. My dog can be fired up and in drive yet still exhibiting self-control.

Depending on the OP's circumstances and of course whether her dog has the necessary drive, I would use drive training to "gee" him up and getting him to learn to be more responsive.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Erny

[W Sibs]

I prefer just reward training and my trainers have classes that are purely about catching and shaping positive behaviours etc but sometimes just sometimes there is a situation where you need to use reward removal.

I don't believe that this method on all dogs.

I know because this does not work on Charlie. He doesn't give a crap about positive or negative rewards/punishment.

Edited May 24, 2011 by CW EW

[Keira&Phoenix]

No dramas Pers. That is fair enough you have to use the technique that works for you as well as the dog, I appreciate abd accept that.

Cw EW agreed not all methods will work on all dogs because they are individuals and learn differently and are motivated by different things just like us.

Charlie sounds like a challenge. May i ask what methods you use with him?

[huski]

I can see the merit in 'time outs' or ending the game when I am training my dog, but only when ending the game or timing my dog out will actually give her a loss of something she values. When we're training and I end the game if she's barking for example, that is a serious loss to her as she is so invested in training and the game and getting the reward.

When you have a dog that doesn't care about the reward it's losing, I don't see how effective a time out or 'reward removal' would be.

[corvus]

Learning theory doesn't explain everything, but every animal that is capable of learning is subject to it. By definition, a dog has to care about rewards and punishments, or else they are not rewards and punishments.

[Erny]

By definition, a dog has to care about rewards and punishments, or else they are not rewards and punishments.

That is a very nice, succint way of putting it, Corvus.