Excrutiatingly Stubborn Dog

[Leelaa17]

Leelaa - Have you taught your dogs hand cues to go with the voice cues?? Dogs work in body language and often a hand cue is very helpful to have. Both of my dogs respond better to a hand cue then a voice cue. Or if you are in a very distracting situation you can use both.

yes - hand cues are what they respond to most. sometimes I dont even say sit and i do the hand cue and they sit.

havent read the rest of the posts yet

[Inevitablue]

One of my dogs is too fast and wily to routinely enforce anything with. If I even look vaguely like I mean business, he runs and hides. He can get into places that I can't get him out of, and he will play endless games of "let's keep this obstacle squarely between us at all times". Invariably this happens when I have a train to catch.

I have to agree, in a discussion on training that is intended to educate a novice it's important to get things right. Doing tricks is not the same as being obedient, and your quote above actually does outline a dog that is not obedient. If you don't care about obedience and enforcement then it doesn't matter, but you can't claim your methods have lead to obedient dogs because a lot of your posts tell stories that show your dogs aren't obedient. Obedience actually mean comply with the human's command at all times, not just when they choose to.

Change Corvus' description to a dog that growls at children over a bone for example and it wouldn't be so easy to ignore the behaviour or make excuses for it.

Not trying to catch you out Corvus, I just find it interesting to see the differences between people who train their own dogs, and the posts from people who train dogs in a commercial sense. Excuses can't be made when people expect results.

[corvus]

One of my dogs is too fast and wily to routinely enforce anything with. If I even look vaguely like I mean business, he runs and hides. He can get into places that I can't get him out of, and he will play endless games of "let's keep this obstacle squarely between us at all times". Invariably this happens when I have a train to catch.

I have to agree, in a discussion on training that is intended to educate a novice it's important to get things right. Doing tricks is not the same as being obedient, and your quote above actually does outline a dog that is not obedient. If you don't care about obedience and enforcement then it doesn't matter, but you can't claim your methods have lead to obedient dogs because a lot of your posts tell stories that show your dogs aren't obedient. Obedience actually mean comply with the human's command at all times, not just when they choose to.

Change Corvus' description to a dog that growls at children over a bone for example and it wouldn't be so easy to ignore the behaviour or make excuses for it.

Not trying to catch you out Corvus, I just find it interesting to see the differences between people who train their own dogs, and the posts from people who train dogs in a commercial sense. Excuses can't be made when people expect results.

Ah, I think I see where you're coming from. I give him a command and he decides he's not doing it and I am unable to enforce it, thus, disobedient. It's kind of a circular thing. My dogs are spitz breeds and aren't in the habit of doing anything they don't want to do. If I defined obedience as my dogs doing what they are told regardless of whether they want to do it or not, half the time I wouldn't even know if they were obedient because they have never not wanted to do what they are told. If I cue something when they are not keen on it, often they do it anyway because the response is conditioned or the reward history is so strong that it's almost a compulsion to obey. So I guess in those cases they are obedient. When I was calling Erik inside, and he decided he didn't want to do it, the response wasn't conditioned and didn't have a strong reward history, i.e. it wasn't really trained in the first place. When I tried to go after him to enforce something, he ran away and was disobedient. How am I to make him obedient if I can't actually catch the bugger? So I just taught him to go inside when cued and suddenly he always wants to do it when I cue it. So how do I tell now if he's disobedient? He always does it because he always wants to.

In conclusion, I don't enforce things because I tend to find disobedience is a symptom of the behaviour not being properly trained in the first place rather than a behaviour in of itself to be punished or rewarded.

[poodlefan]

In conclusion, I don't enforce things because I tend to find disobedience is a symptom of the behaviour not being properly trained in the first place rather than a behaviour in of itself to be punished or rewarded.

So if you have trained a behaviour (by your definition) and the dogs don't respond to a cue, what do you do?

[Are You Serious Jo]

You know, sometimes things really are simple, obedience means doing as you are told, that is all. If your dog doesn't do what you tell it to it is disobedient. I have one dog that is disobedient on some things, that makes her a disobedient dog. It doesn't worry me too much so I haven't bothered to fix it, but she is still disobedient. If you make excuses for your dogs based on their breeds you'll never progress, treat them like dogs and fix each behaviour if it is a problem.

[Inevitablue]

How am I to make him obedient if I can't actually catch the bugger? So I just taught him to go inside when cued and suddenly he always wants to do it when I cue it. So how do I tell now if he's disobedient? He always does it because he always wants to.

He will come when called, even if he doesn't want to because he in the past has been given options which have different outcomes.

Option A- come when called and get a super reward

Option B- ignore and run away and get in trouble

People like Nehkbet don't practice option B more than option A, they just use either whenever appropriate and often lots of A after B. (correct me at any point)

Understandably spitz are more aloof, but that's a challenge, not an excuse. Cattle dogs have a desire to nip, but I can't make excuses. Plus how do I condition not nipping? She is smart, but not that smart to recognize getting treats for free is actually for not doing a behavior, especially one which can surface when she is in an aroused state and the act of biting is in her DNA. She has to get a very clear and strong option B if she does nip.

I'm not against your findings, or work. You can certainly educate many about getting even higher responses to Option A's, but ruling out implementing Option B's will not assist any trainer in correcting bad behaviour.

Being all happy happy all the time is fine if that's what someone wants to do with their dog, and if the dog is bad mannered in say a group situation, or chases livestock, so they address the issue by avoiding it is their prerogative, but some owners want those issues fixed and so Option B's have to be used.

What if your dog got away from you on a busy road, and with so much stimulation didn't want to recall? You will answer by saying you wouldn't let your dog get into that situation in the first place and that's what I meant by well managed vs obedient.

Lol, my dog is far from obedient yet! Especially after the diva performance put on at training tonight

[Inevitablue]

In conclusion, I don't enforce things because I tend to find disobedience is a symptom of the behaviour not being properly trained in the first place rather than a behaviour in of itself to be punished or rewarded.

How would you go about training a dog to not do a behaviour, particularly a dangerous behaviour that the dog has practiced for the past 2 years?

[corvus]

In conclusion, I don't enforce things because I tend to find disobedience is a symptom of the behaviour not being properly trained in the first place rather than a behaviour in of itself to be punished or rewarded.

So if you have trained a behaviour (by your definition) and the dogs don't respond to a cue, what do you do?

It really depends on the situation and how fluent the behaviour is. Mostly in clicker training the whole point is that they choose to do a behaviour. If they choose not to, then that's my problem, whether it's a problem with their understanding of the cue or a problem with the reward history or the reward type, that's my job to figure it out and adjust my training accordingly.

Having said that, if there's a dog somewhere in the world that can find a loophole in a training system and exploit the hell out of it, it's Erik. He can be obstinate on occassion. He always wants something, though, and he can be as obstinate as he likes, but inevitably he realises he would rather just get what he wants, so he does the behaviour.

[corvus]

In conclusion, I don't enforce things because I tend to find disobedience is a symptom of the behaviour not being properly trained in the first place rather than a behaviour in of itself to be punished or rewarded.

How would you go about training a dog to not do a behaviour, particularly a dangerous behaviour that the dog has practiced for the past 2 years?

Like what? Is it a self-rewarding behaviour? How self-rewarding? Who is it dangerous to? What's the risk? How motivated is the dog? Can the behaviour be managed? Can the dog be supervised when the opportunity to engage in the behaviour is there? What degree of control is the dog under when performing the behaviour? It's too variable to make a blanket statement.

[Vickie]

You know, sometimes things really are simple, obedience means doing as you are told, that is all. If your dog doesn't do what you tell it to it is disobedient.... If you make excuses for your dogs based on their breeds you'll never progress, treat them like dogs and fix each behaviour if it is a problem.

totally agree! Would also add that it is worth having a good think before deciding that something is not a problem & doesn't need to be fixed. Unless you can 100% guarantee effective management, lots of things people choose to live with actually do need to be fixed.

Sometimes tackling one thing thoroughly makes tackling other things much easier.

[poodlefan]

It really depends on the situation and how fluent the behaviour is. Mostly in clicker training the whole point is that they choose to do a behaviour. If they choose not to, then that's my problem, whether it's a problem with their understanding of the cue or a problem with the reward history or the reward type, that's my job to figure it out and adjust my training accordingly.

Having said that, if there's a dog somewhere in the world that can find a loophole in a training system and exploit the hell out of it, it's Erik. He can be obstinate on occassion. He always wants something, though, and he can be as obstinate as he likes, but inevitably he realises he would rather just get what he wants, so he does the behaviour.

I would disagree with that. A clicker is a marker, not a method. In free shaping you want the dog to offer but I"m talking a behaviour that you have trained and put on cue. Clickers can be used to more than get dogs to offer behaviours (as you know).

Surely there is one behaviour that you've trained and put on cue? Sit, recall??

Edited May 26, 2011 by poodlefan

[corvus]

I would disagree with that. A clicker is a marker, not a method. In free shaping you want the dog to offer but I"m talking a behaviour that you have trained and put on cue. Clickers can be used to more than get dogs to offer behaviours (as you know).

Fine, disagree. What does it matter?

Surely there is one behaviour that you've trained and put on cue? Sit, recall??

I didn't know what kind of behaviour you were talking about. My dogs know loads of cues, but most of them are just for fun and I haven't put any effort at all into making them fluent. Other cues I consider a fair bit more important that they are fluent. I take it you were talking about the latter (sit, down, recall and so on). It depends on why they didn't respond. An extra cue seems to take care of most of them. If it's Erik being a twerp it depends on what he's doing instead of responding to the cue.

I don't know why this should be so controversial. Seriously, you try to enforce a behaviour with Erik. I don't have the patience for it. I've spent 10 minutes playing silly buggers with him before trying to just lay a finger on him so I can enforce it. Not only is it damn hard with him, but he becomes intensely suspicious of anything that might ultimately lead to me attempting to enforce something. That includes a cue for a known behaviour. Why don't I just shoot myself in the foot? This is stupid, she said to herself, I'm just going to reward him for doing what I want him to do instead. So I did, and now I have a dog who does what I ask him to do promptly and reliably. But wait, oh noes, this can't be true. You can't have an obedient dog if you don't enforce commands! F*** obedience. I don't want it. I want a dog that likes to do what I ask him to do and doesn't regularly frustrate me by not doing it. I don't need to make excuses for my dogs' behaviour, because when I want a high degree of reliability I train it in without ever enforcing it and I get the reliability I want. By far our most fluent behaviour is recalls. It's hard to enforce a blown off recall. By the time I get to them they will have forgotten they even got recalled. I'd put Kivi's recall at 98% reliable (it's actually got better, lately) and Erik's at 99% at least. If I can do that with as challenging a behaviour as recalling without enforcing it, then why enforce anything? Next most reliable behaviour is downs for Erik and sits for Kivi. Erik is probably about 98% reliable on downs and can do them in some very weird and demanding situations that really surprises me. I never thought I'd have a dog that would down from a run, or while balanced on a log, or when a dog he's just fought with is still running around thinking about having another go at him. I don't even remember the last time Kivi didn't respond to a sit cue. We haven't tested his sits as much as Erik's downs, but we know he'll sit in the river and he gets a bit confused about what to do with his front legs when they are on a log and he is given a sit cue, but he tries to do it anyway and manages to organise his limbs into something resembling a sit. I've never enforced a sit or a down with either of them. They choose to do it. I just foster their understanding of it and take care of their motivation. If 98% reliability is disobedient, then call my dogs disobedient. I'll call them 98% reliable and continue looking for the situations that make up that 2% so I can chase as close to perfect as a behaviour can be.

[Kavik]

I think some dogs deal with hands on 'guiding' into position training better than others. It doesn't bother Diesel at all - you can push, pull, place Diesel however you like and it doesn't worry him. His breeders use the guide, show, place method with all their dogs. But the Kelpies don't cope so well with being manhandled and deal much better with hands off methods. They are much more sensitive to handler pressure and distance and body language.

[Vickie]

I am SO confused...

[Erny]

I am SO confused...

Maybe I can help you?

Would you prefer me to guide you through the posts, or use lure?

Or hey! I can use the "clicker method".

Edited May 26, 2011 by Erny

[Vickie]

I am SO confused...

Maybe I can help you?

Would you prefer me to guide you through the posts, or use lure?

ROFL! YES, please help!!! I don't care which, guide or lure, either is fine, so long as you don't keep changing your mind / contradict yourself the whole way through the explanations!!!

Clicker method would work too, but the above rules HAVE to apply!

And I warn you, I am like NO person you've EVER helped before

Edited May 26, 2011 by Vickie

[Staranais]

I think some dogs deal with hands on 'guiding' into position training better than others. It doesn't bother Diesel at all - you can push, pull, place Diesel however you like and it doesn't worry him. His breeders use the guide, show, place method with all their dogs. But the Kelpies don't cope so well with being manhandled and deal much better with hands off methods. They are much more sensitive to handler pressure and distance and body language.

I think that is true. My last dog sounds more like your Diesel, my mally like your kelpie. I do use guiding with her, in a fashion, but tend to ask her to target to my hand rather than physically moving her.

But on the other hand, I think you still have to teach them to tolerate being manhandled to a degree, even if they dislike it. If a strange person ever has to handle my girl, I don't want her stressing out, or even worse, taking offence and nailing them in the arm. I remember that as a pup she looked very shocked and upset when I first took her to the boarding kennel and the attendant moved her by grabbing her collar, as we just didn't do that at home. So when we got home, we had to train her that this was OK.

[persephone]

erny!

[Are You Serious Jo]

I've got it, I'll only ever ask my dog to do something that I know she'll do every time and then her disobedience with recall won't exist and then she'll be 100% obedient

[Nekhbet]

I've got it, I'll only ever ask my dog to do something that I know she'll do every time and then her disobedience with recall won't exist and then she'll be 100% obedient

DING DING DING

we have a winner

*click*

treat