Excrutiatingly Stubborn Dog

[Nekhbet]

thats the different between when your dog just knows tricks and when your dog is actually obedient.

I don't like putting the dog into position, I like hands off. If you want to be realistic about it, not everyone is able to physically put their dog in position. Say if you have an old lady or a very small female with a rottie or great dane. Good luck physically putting it into position. That's why hands off is better, it teaches the dog happy compliance, no force involved (putting the dog into position is force no matter how you look at it. It might not be brutal or harsh, but if you have a dog that doesn't want to sit at that time, force is necessary if you want to use that method).

and the fact you consider size to be an issue shows you and probably a few others dont understand how I do it. Size does not matter I can help a mastiff in place with little effort - everyone can help their dog into position. This is because everyone thinks I'm yanking them around and manhandling them against what they actually want to do which is wrong.

[Leelaa17]

thats the different between when your dog just knows tricks and when your dog is actually obedient.

I don't like putting the dog into position, I like hands off. If you want to be realistic about it, not everyone is able to physically put their dog in position. Say if you have an old lady or a very small female with a rottie or great dane. Good luck physically putting it into position. That's why hands off is better, it teaches the dog happy compliance, no force involved (putting the dog into position is force no matter how you look at it. It might not be brutal or harsh, but if you have a dog that doesn't want to sit at that time, force is necessary if you want to use that method).

and the fact you consider size to be an issue shows you and probably a few others dont understand how I do it. Size does not matter I can help a mastiff in place with little effort - everyone can help their dog into position. This is because everyone thinks I'm yanking them around and manhandling them against what they actually want to do which is wrong.

I'd just like to note that I have been taught to put my dogs into a sit position. I just push gently on their bum to make them sit... jenna does it quite well.. but as the topic title says, max can be a shit. lol but a lot of the time he is quite good, will sit and stay until I tell him to get up. I dont mind a hands on approach but thats just how IVE been trained!

[BC Crazy]

I totally agree with guiding your dog into position. Shaping them. There is nothing wrong with 'hands on training' IMO especially with young dogs. Time out's are ineffective. Makes much more sense to me to show your dog what you require of him if he is not quite getting the idea. As they catch on & respond correctly to your command you remove the shaping. Dogs again IMO are not being taught anything by being isolated even for a moment apart from becoming more confused They just want to please you & it's up to us to make our directions crystal clear to them. find what makes them tick. Every dog is different. Once we find that, life with them will be a bed of roses.

[jacqui835]

thats the different between when your dog just knows tricks and when your dog is actually obedient.

I don't like putting the dog into position, I like hands off. If you want to be realistic about it, not everyone is able to physically put their dog in position. Say if you have an old lady or a very small female with a rottie or great dane. Good luck physically putting it into position. That's why hands off is better, it teaches the dog happy compliance, no force involved (putting the dog into position is force no matter how you look at it. It might not be brutal or harsh, but if you have a dog that doesn't want to sit at that time, force is necessary if you want to use that method).

and the fact you consider size to be an issue shows you and probably a few others dont understand how I do it. Size does not matter I can help a mastiff in place with little effort - everyone can help their dog into position. This is because everyone thinks I'm yanking them around and manhandling them against what they actually want to do which is wrong.

I'd just like to note that I have been taught to put my dogs into a sit position. I just push gently on their bum to make them sit... jenna does it quite well.. but as the topic title says, max can be a shit. lol but a lot of the time he is quite good, will sit and stay until I tell him to get up. I dont mind a hands on approach but thats just how IVE been trained!

As the owner of a young entire male doberman, we have experienced similar sorts of things. He will be being naughty, so myself or my partner will tell him to sit. Usually with me he listens, but with my partner it's a different story. If he doesn't do what I tell him, I get up, follow him around until he's cornered and he sits. If I give a command, I always ensure it's followed through. And I very rarely touch him at all, I just stand over him. If my partner tries to do the same thing though, the dog will sometimes crouch down in a play position and then half challenge him - maybe growl a bit or even jump up at him. At this point, my partner will grab him by the collar, yank him sideways and repeat the command, and I always come over and stand beside him. Once I get involved, he has always given up immediately and sat down.

My partner is more hands on with the dog, and I think the dog likes it, and deliberately tries to get him angry so that he'll 'play' with him. There's no fun in my discipline, I'm not going to try and force the dog to physically sit because I can't, and I actually think the dog knows this, so it all has to be mental.

But it's an ongoing battle between my partner and him. Dan loves him, but is convinced the dog wants his spot in the pack lol.

[poodlefan]

I totally agree with guiding your dog into position. Shaping them. There is nothing wrong with 'hands on training' IMO especially with young dogs.

I agree.. up to a point. Guiding is limited to the dog being within arms reach. What happens when the dog gets further away?

[Erny]

I don't like putting the dog into position, I like hands off.

I can often tell when a dog is taught in this fashion. I'm not against lure and positive reward approach, mind - I use it quite often, but that doesn't mean I don't use the hands on technique as well. It goes a long way to the dog learning to allow you to place him/her and that goes a long way for other things such as when the Vet needs to place him in a position for examination and so forth.

I recently looked after my sister's dog. He's a lovely boy, but he's been brought up with the "hands off, if you won't do it there's no treat for you" technique. That was all well and good when he was younger - he's not a bad dog and is pretty laid back in terms of interaction amongst people and other dogs, and the world in general (great socialisation ). But now he's older, he needs more care and just one part of that is the administration of tablets. He went through a stage where (whilst he was in my care) he wasn't eating the tablet that I'd sprinkled on his food. So I had to administer it manually.

That was a struggle and a half. I managed well enough, but what I didn't like was the stress he went through (even just being held/placed in readiness for me to pop a pill to him)because I actually 'handled' him. And before you ask - there was no way he would take the pill with ANY food and there was no way I could coax him into position with ANY food or toy. This is a 13yo dog who is predominantly deaf, so even use of voice didn't do anything.

Also, getting up and down from the car. Picking him up is an absolute nightmare - he tends to leap like a bucking bronco and then swims once you have him. Why should he trust my arms around him with his ability to maneuver himself having been removed, when he's never been taught it in the first place?

I like the "hands off" approach (assuming it works) to teach a dog what I want and how to get the reward. But I also like the "hands on" approach to teach a dog to trust my hands and let me guide him/her.

[Erny]

I totally agree with guiding your dog into position. Shaping them. There is nothing wrong with 'hands on training' IMO especially with young dogs.

I agree.. up to a point. Guiding is limited to the dog being within arms reach. What happens when the dog gets further away?

Hands on guiding is for early basic teaching phase, so you wouldn't have the dog/pup that far away from you? ... or perhaps I'm missing your thought/point?

[corvus]

thats the different between when your dog just knows tricks and when your dog is actually obedient.

My dogs know tricks and are obedient. *worlds collide*

I have to say I am mystified why you would place a dog so you can reward them when they haven't responded to a cue. If they didn't perform to criteria then they don't get a reward. Making them perform to criteria so you can reward them is kind of a backwards approach IMO. Why not work on your cue instead, seeing as that's where everything went wrong? Go back and gradually broaden their understanding of it. Find a place where they do understand it (as in, they respond to it correctly at least 80% of the time) and give them the cue a step to the left of them. Try it rotated 45 degrees away from them. Try it directly after various other cued behaviours. You'd be amazed in how many situations they don't know what that cue means. I don't know why it matters that the dog assumes the position one way or another if they didn't understand the cue in the first place. If your dog can respond correctly to the cue while you're facing away from them or they are 10m away from you, then you can start thinking about whether they do know it and are blowing you off, in which case you probably have a reinforcement problem rather than a cue problem. If they are responding well to other cues in the same session, then your problem is probably with the cue, not the consequence.

Or place the dog and reward them. Why should it have to make sense to do the job?

[poodlefan]

I totally agree with guiding your dog into position. Shaping them. There is nothing wrong with 'hands on training' IMO especially with young dogs.

I agree.. up to a point. Guiding is limited to the dog being within arms reach. What happens when the dog gets further away?

Hands on guiding is for early basic teaching phase, so you wouldn't have the dog/pup that far away from you? ... or perhaps I'm missing your thought/point?

If your method of reinforcing the sit is to guide and place, what do you do when the dog is out of arms reach and fails to sit? I know the argument would be to bring the dog closer to you again but my view is that some dogs know damn well when you can't reach them.

Edited May 25, 2011 by poodlefan

[Inevitablue]

thats the different between when your dog just knows tricks and when your dog is actually obedient.

My dogs know tricks and are obedient. *worlds collide*

Obedient? Or well managed?

You just mentioned that you can't regularly enforce anything with one of your dogs....

[corvus]

thats the different between when your dog just knows tricks and when your dog is actually obedient.

My dogs know tricks and are obedient. *worlds collide*

Obedient? Or well managed?

You just mentioned that you can't regularly enforce anything with one of your dogs....

Uh oh, someone's trying to catch me out! Wait, let me think.... Nope, they are definitely obedient. Turns out enforcing obedience isn't the only way to get obedience. Believe it or not. I'm quite happy walking to the train station instead of running these days. ;)

[wuffles]

One of mine is obedient and one isn't. That means I can blame the dog, right?

[PetSitters]

I totally agree with guiding your dog into position. Shaping them. There is nothing wrong with 'hands on training' IMO especially with young dogs.

I agree.. up to a point. Guiding is limited to the dog being within arms reach. What happens when the dog gets further away?

Hands on guiding is for early basic teaching phase, so you wouldn't have the dog/pup that far away from you? ... or perhaps I'm missing your thought/point?

If your method of reinforcing the sit is to guide and place, what do you do when the dog is out of arms reach and fails to sit? I know the argument would be to bring the dog closer to you again but my view is that some dogs know damn well when you can't reach them.

I wouldn't command distance sits at the guide and place phase until the sit was properly established, then increase the distance.

[PetSitters]

One of mine is obedient and one isn't. That means I can blame the dog, right?

A responsive dog sure makes you look like an awesome trainer so you can blame the other dog

[OSoSwift]

I generally teach things like drops etc with a hands off approach. That does not mean my dogs are not handled. From the day they come home they are used with having eyes, ears, mouths looked in and handled, being gently rolled over and having tummy, paws etc looked at and handled, also tails and having legs picked up (like a horse) and examined.

Just because you train hands off does not mean a dog isn't or doesn't need to be used to being handled. I don't place them in position, but I do get them to do what it is I am asking for.

My dogs have alway been trained like this and they are not dogs that are not likely to do as you ask, as long as they have been taught correctly and understand, they will do it. If they don't, I know it is because they don't understand what I am trying to get them to do.

If I had less compliant dogs then I may guide them - don't know, but guiding is not necessarily forcing the issues either.

[Leelaa17]

That was a struggle and a half. I managed well enough, but what I didn't like was the stress he went through (even just being held/placed in readiness for me to pop a pill to him)because I actually 'handled' him. And before you ask - there was no way he would take the pill with ANY food and there was no way I could coax him into position with ANY food or toy. This is a 13yo dog who is predominantly deaf, so even use of voice didn't do anything.

this is completely OT but we have a 16yo dog at home (he's not completely blind, can see shadows etc) and hes not completely deaf, will hear when we call loud enough... he is an absolutely effing NIGHTMARE to give tablets to. i cant even explain it. I refuse to give them to him, my dad has to do it, and even then Rashka (the dog) wont take it.

you can put it in the middle of very strong smelling food, cheese, everything and he will literally sniff it out and not eat the specific bit you give him. I have tried to put it down his throat - with max and jenna its easy, they just sit there and let me do it, but with him he will thrash his head around, bite (not too hard), flick his tongue around everywhere etc.

im thinking of trying the peanut butter thing on the other thread!

[wuffles]

I have never had to guide my 'obedient' dog to do anything. She lives to please so does what she's told (except maybe go to the toilet in the rain :rolleyes:).

I have placed my other dog in position because he doesn't have much of an interest in pats, praise, toys or food. As far as I can see, though, it hasn't made much of a difference as to whether he will actually respond to a command the next time - it makes me feel better because he's done what he's asked (albeit with help) but that's about it.

Strangely enough, he's the easier dog to live with. He's laidback, independent, not very active, and is happy just to snooze the day away.

Edited May 25, 2011 by wuffles

[Keira&Phoenix]

I totally agree with guiding your dog into position. Shaping them. There is nothing wrong with 'hands on training' IMO especially with young dogs. Time out's are ineffective. Makes much more sense to me to show your dog what you require of him if he is not quite getting the idea. As they catch on & respond correctly to your command you remove the shaping. Dogs again IMO are not being taught anything by being isolated even for a moment apart from becoming more confused They just want to please you & it's up to us to make our directions crystal clear to them. find what makes them tick. Every dog is different. Once we find that, life with them will be a bed of roses.

In the case the OP has stated the dog does understand the command but chooses not to follow because the rewards are not valued high enough at the time, so how does placing the dog into the position do anything? Because then the dog is still not getting reward enough to motivate it to do it next time. In this case Leelaa really needs to find something that motivates her dog because right now he isn't motivated in this particular siuation.

Generally for my dog I don't need to use timeout/reward removal for obedience based stuff she is pretty good with that or I will out wait her when she doesn't want to sit to go outside, get fed etc. It is mostly if she does something undesirable ie: jumping on the counter or similar.

Nekhbet - Sadly many of us do not have the option to take our dogs to work or to have more than 2 dogs. My situation is I can't take my dogs to work, I can only have two dogs and I often have to take them out separately soo they are often separated from me and each other. So to me 2 mins in timeout is NOT pack separation because they put up with much longer times on a regular basis.

Erny - I am not saying don't touch your dog at all. Mine get handled on a regular basis including giving tablets, cleaning ears, claw clipping, brushing, bathing, getting lifted in and out of the car, paws cleaned when the walk into the house (its a bit muddy outside at the moment) and I also make sure when they are puppies and continuing into adult hood to just general handle them to make sure they are used to it.

Leelaa - Have you taught your dogs hand cues to go with the voice cues?? Dogs work in body language and often a hand cue is very helpful to have. Both of my dogs respond better to a hand cue then a voice cue. Or if you are in a very distracting situation you can use both.

[megan_]

Kerira&Phoenix - often people believe their dog understands something but the dog doesn't. Dogs aren't good at generalising (but are excellent and picking up patterns), that is why we need to train them in many different situations. Often a dog might do something when the owner is standing, but not when they're sitting. The dog thinks "when my owner is standing in front of me and says sit, I must sit", so when the owner is lying down the dog knows that the pattern isn't being followed so it doesn't comply. That is why so many people are suggesting training in many different situations (so that the only pattern is the word/signal/whatever you use to indicate "sit"), and guiding if necessary.

[Are You Serious Jo]

One of my dogs is too fast and wily to routinely enforce anything with. If I even look vaguely like I mean business, he runs and hides. He can get into places that I can't get him out of, and he will play endless games of "let's keep this obstacle squarely between us at all times". Invariably this happens when I have a train to catch.

I have to agree, in a discussion on training that is intended to educate a novice it's important to get things right. Doing tricks is not the same as being obedient, and your quote above actually does outline a dog that is not obedient. If you don't care about obedience and enforcement then it doesn't matter, but you can't claim your methods have lead to obedient dogs because a lot of your posts tell stories that show your dogs aren't obedient. Obedience actually mean comply with the human's command at all times, not just when they choose to.

leela has a dog that isn't compliant and she needs follow instructions on how to enforce her commands.