Excrutiatingly Stubborn Dog

[RallyValley]

Time outs can be effective if used properly but don't see how they would work for the OP in the situation they describe, here is an example of how I use a time out when training Toby:

e.g I am at obedience training, I have high value rewards with me, I am working with the dog doing heelwork (for e,g). He is sitting at heel and looses focus to a dog barking - I wait a few seconds to see if he offers focus, he does not, he breaks heel position and gets more distracted. I walk him back to the car and put him in.

By the time I get him back out (usually a max of 5 mins) he is egar to continue the session. I have been doing this with Toby over time who is an easily distracted dog (with some social issues) and over time his focus has built alot (greatest achivement so far - heeling with attention while a strange dog was having a noisy game of tug 3m away)

(As well as trying to work him a distance from distractions that does not set him up to fail)... but I digress...

[poodlefan]

By definition, a dog has to care about rewards and punishments, or else they are not rewards and punishments.

That is a very nice, succint way of putting it, Corvus.

When you're having trouble training a dog, its best to look to HOW its being trained, before writing it off as stubborn or stupid.

I was going to post something today along the lines of "this dog clearly isn't motivated by pats and cuddles". The next question then becomes, "what DOES motivate him?" To reward him, you have to give him something HE wants.

Leela join a dog obedience club and/or get some lesson from a trainer. This dog sounds like he's blowing you off because he isn't motivated to please you and there aren't any consequences when he doesn't. You need to learn how to motivate him.

Edited May 24, 2011 by poodlefan

[Skye GSD]

When Skye is given a "command" like sit and she gives me the look that says "make me" - that's exactly what I do. Even if it means getting up from a prone position to do it :D A command is a command and should always be treated as such. If you say "why don't you come and sit with me" or "come and lie down here" - that is a conversation and unfortunately dogs do not understand sentences

[Nekhbet]

where did I mention finding anything to punish? In fact I was encouraging helping the dog find more ways to be rewarded Corvus. You didn't read anything at all I wrote did you.

Putting my dog in position doesn't make him do it next time.

putting your dog in position you want him in, marking and rewarding then repeating doesnt teach your dogs anything? Really? Or do you just move them there then say nothing?

I don't practice pack separation the dog is in time out for no longer than 2 mintues, I don't think that is practicing pack separation because it is such a short period of time.

So what is the cutoff time when it goes from what you consider it a time out to pack separation? You remove the dog and lock it in a small unstimulating environment on it's own - what do you call it?

I don't believe in helping a dog into a position, if that is too hands off than that is fine with me because that is the way I choose to train my dogs and that is the way I am trained to train my dogs.

You do what you want. I use food and luring too. But if a dog is not getting it I use other tools like hands, collar/lead etc in order to help the dog to achieve faster and exactly how I want it AND with the added bonus of avoiding potentially rewarding a sloppy behaviour I will then have to work backwards to remove. I find it particularly useful when retraining dogs that have extremely bad habits or reactivity problems.

And I haven't traumatised a dog yet ... although I do think a few people are misunderstanding what I actually do.

[persephone]

When Skye is given a "command" like sit and she gives me the look that says "make me" - that's exactly what I do. Even if it means getting up from a prone position to do it :D A command is a command and should always be treated as such. If you say "why don't you come and sit with me" or "come and lie down here" - that is a conversation and unfortunately dogs do not understand sentences

I like this attitude That's how I was taught to train dogs as well ...

[Keira&Phoenix]

Nekhbet - sooo you never take some of your dogs out and leave one or more at home? Is that practicing pack seperation?

So crating a puppy and leaving it to spend time alone while your at home is that pack seperation? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at leaving the dog there for long periods of time, 2 minutes is not pack separation.

Fyi I call it reward removal as previously stated.

I didn't say moving a dog into a position would traumitise the dog just that I don't do it. As previously stated different things work for different handlers and different dogs.

[Nekhbet]

Actually I dont leave dogs alone or locked away where they cannot access or at least see another unless I have to. They do understand that crate time is quiet time and if I have to remove one and leave it in there there wont be a fuss but I dont do it just because. I actually take a couple with me to work if I can but there is a difference in behaviour with a dog left alone and a dog left with company with my lot.

Dogs dont have to be on top of each other or you in order to be part of the 'pack'. Removing a dogs choice and locking it in a tiny room like a toilet without the ability to see anything or anyone is different from practicing quiet time in a crate.

I dont see it as a productive method of teaching an animal anything.

[W Sibs]

Charlie is a challenge to teach something new but he isn't hard to train. Once he learnt something, he knows it. He knows I know it. So, when I tell him to do it, he will have to do it. It's all about patience, finding the right time to teach him something new, use his moods (eg, if he is sookie that day.. I'll make him work for his cuddles, if he is in a playful mood, I will use that).

From a pup, I never gave him a chance to disobey me. When I tell him to do something, he has to do it. It's not negoitable. So, in a way.. he doesn't know how too? It's not a behaviour that I want to teach him or for a behaviour I want him to develop.

[persephone]

From a pup, I never gave him a chance to disobey me. When I tell him to do something, he has to do it. It's not negoitable.

..and that's what it's all about .. guiding/commanding so that pup will be successful and gain his reward the first time (even with lots of help)

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Agree with the others that it is no good giving a command that you can't enforce if the dog doesn't respond. We recently moved some cows into the front paddock and it's also a moonlit night. I just called one of our bitches who is fascinated by the cows and she didn't recall. So I got a lead and walked out there. When she saw me she trotted dutifully up to the door, I did not have to leash her. I call that the "Oh. You mean it." moment. If I had just stayed inside and left it pretty soon that recall command would be ignored on a regular basis. You may find training separately is useful. Ultimately tho' you have to out stubborn them. Sometimes I have spent 15 minutes with our IW adolescent in a battle of wills at doorways. I would rather spend the 15 minutes now and get compliance than have a 70 kilo dog pushing in and out at will later on. By out stubborn I don't mean being heavy handed or rough, I mean setting criteria, and patiently sticking to it even if you'd rather be watching tv with a glass of wine.

[corvus]

One of my dogs is too fast and wily to routinely enforce anything with. If I even look vaguely like I mean business, he runs and hides. He can get into places that I can't get him out of, and he will play endless games of "let's keep this obstacle squarely between us at all times". Invariably this happens when I have a train to catch. So I just rely on rewards. I don't 'command', I cue. A cue is a green light meaning if he performs this heavily reinforced behaviour now he may be rewarded. He likes cues. I discovered recently by accident that just saying his name is rewarding because it normally means I'm going to give him a cue. When he's pretty fluent in a behaviour I generally find he happily does it every time I give the cue. Usually with a great deal of enthusiasm.

Not cueing anything you can't enforce is a good plan, but I got tired with Kivi getting up and enforcing things. I don't do it anymore and am much happier. The onus is on me to train the behaviour properly and set my dogs up for success. If I fail, I just backtrack and do some more work. As Steve White says, failure just tells you what you get to do more training on. Yay! Training!

[Lab_Rat]

Im not a dog trainers little toe, but just wanted to add my bit

I have a Kelpie and a Rhodesian Ridgeback - two vastly different dogs to train as most of you will know! Wandy (the Kelpie) was a dream to train, almost too easy and she is always willing to learn something new.

Zola (RR) is a whole different kettle of fish She is our 2nd Ridgy and I thought I knew it all after the first angel.....how wrong I was. She is such an independent dog, has been from day one, but I had no idea about such dogs. After lots of hard work, by her and myself, she is slowly getting to be a well trained dog - but its an ongoing project. The more I learn and understand about dogs and training, the easier it becomes to train her to become the calm, relaxed dog I want. But I have to be one step ahead of her most of the time. By no means is she a "bad" dog, but because of my lack of knowledge she is not as balanced as she could be.

Her independence comes through in several ways - and it is independence NOT stubbornness. We can be outside, after a play and I will ask her to sit....She will stand there and wag her tail, and may even look up at me therefore I know she has heard me, but just decides NOT to sit! She will then be made to sit, then rewarded.....We are working on communicating better, but I have to keep reminding myself Zola is not Wandy, and so needs to be treated differently. The downside is that sometimes Im a bit too hard on Wandy, but am usually forgiven by her, not before getting the guilts on though!

Having had working dogs all my life my brain isnt set up for hound behaviour, but Im slowly getting it...I think!

I guess what Im trying to get across is that every dog is going to be different and our training methods have to be flexible enough and our minds open enough to deal with these dogs.

The OP needs to find a training method or methods that works for both her and her dog.....and it may take a while! Zola is almost 5 and Im still trying different things with her

Any suggestions most welcome :thumbsup:

[fuzzy82]

I don't like putting the dog into position, I like hands off. If you want to be realistic about it, not everyone is able to physically put their dog in position. Say if you have an old lady or a very small female with a rottie or great dane. Good luck physically putting it into position. That's why hands off is better, it teaches the dog happy compliance, no force involved (putting the dog into position is force no matter how you look at it. It might not be brutal or harsh, but if you have a dog that doesn't want to sit at that time, force is necessary if you want to use that method).

What I do when a dog doesn't do as I ask, I assess whether or not I asked for too much. Eg, is it MY fault for asking for a behaviour that hasn't been proofed enough for the dog to be able to do it with the current level of distraction? If this is the case, I either let it go (if the dog is REALLY distracted) or I ask for an easier behaviour.

If I think the environment isn't distracting and the dog is able to do it and just doesn't, then I don't let the dog go and do what it wants until it has done what I asked. Say if I take my puppy out to pee, but he would rather sniff the grass. I put him in the corner where I want him to pee and don't let him leave the corner until he has done it, then release him to sniff the grass. If I ask one of them to sit, and they would rather go and do something else, I keep them in front of me and just wait them out. Once they do it, I release them to go and do what they want.

So I don't reward them if they don't do what I ask, and they don't get to go and self reward either.

I also have "serious cues" and "suggestions". The serious cues I use when I seriously want the behaviour, now. The suggestions are 'do it, or don't do it, doesn't matter'. Like I can ask them to "wait", or "hang on". Wait is the serious cue, which means stop dead and stand there until I catch up. Hang on is 'slow down and let me grab you to untangle you'.

[sas]

People use different methods, as long as the dog isn't being emotionaly or physical abused then it's not really something up for debate....if you like the hands off approach or the hands on appraoch then do that with your own dog....you're not going to change the minds of people who do the opposite.

Edited May 24, 2011 by MEH

[JoeK]

I get my dog fired up with games of chase me (not the dog), or tug.

But she's a lot smaller than a GSD. I've been wondering how people fire up GSD because they're so big, a lot of the games that work with smaller dogs are not so good with GSD.

I do know one who gets very excited about food.

Nothing like skipping a meal and changing the treats to something more yummy like roast beef cut up into little pieces and hoping your hand doesn't disappear to the wrist when rewarding a GSD?

I can understand this looking from a GSD show dog but a working line GSD with high driving dont needing revving up, is instant rev up on drivey dog. Is not unusual for drivey Shepherd dog if he see the tug he go nuts and if hes not controlled properly in the training and you dont give him bite reward he looks for on the tug and tease him, he often try to bite the handler not from aggression but he wants the bite so badly in the rev up, he will bite anything for self reward, your leg, you arm, grab your pants and shake, grab the leash, but dogs like this level on the drive are easy to train in drive on the command and releasing for reward so you use the nuckle head behavior for training advantage.

Joe

[Leelaa17]

Leela join a dog obedience club and/or get some lesson from a trainer. This dog sounds like he's blowing you off because he isn't motivated to please you and there aren't any consequences when he doesn't. You need to learn how to motivate him.

First of all, thank you all very much for your input - a lot of different suggestions which I am willing to take on board and try all!!!

Just in relation to your comment PF - when he goes to obedience class, he is the most obedient dog there... lol doesnt take his eyes off me, does everything I ask immediately, the only thing he doesnt do, is walk calmly next to me to our group - he pulls like crazy, but we are working on that too!

Thank you all again for comments, you're all amazing and I appreciate every one of your suggestions and stories!

[corvus]

Haha, he's not silly, he knows when it's game on. Your challenge is to show him that 'game on' can happen anywhere, anytime.

Just don't try a little bit of everything. ;) It's best to pick a general approach and stick with it for a couple of weeks at least. Give it a chance to work. If you see a little change, then start to refine what you're doing and look for bigger changes. If you don't see any change, then try something else.

[Leelaa17]

Haha, he's not silly, he knows when it's game on. Your challenge is to show him that 'game on' can happen anywhere, anytime.

Just don't try a little bit of everything. ;) It's best to pick a general approach and stick with it for a couple of weeks at least. Give it a chance to work. If you see a little change, then start to refine what you're doing and look for bigger changes. If you don't see any change, then try something else.

great advice! thanks corvus

[PetSitters]

Hi guys,

I just wanted some opinions/advice on Max (this time lol)...

he is an incredibly intelligent dog but is now persuaded by food, or toys... so it makes it reasonably hard to train him - although we just make sure we train him before eating and normally its ok.

The difference between him and jenna is that jenna will listen to every word I say and do it immediately, she is so good! whereas max, although older, has a serious stubborness issue. He will literally look at me like I am a fool if I ask him to do something... unless he REALLY wants something, he most of the time refuses to listen to me.

EG. If they are sitting at the back door waiting to come in and I say 'sit', they are so excited for about 10 seconds that they just go a little crazy, and then when they see the door isn't opening they sit immediately.

If the back door is open and I come inside and turn around and say 'stay', they will stay until I let them come in, whether or not I walk away to do something else or not.

HOWEVER... If I am lying on the lounge and I ask max to sit he will just stare at me... then walk away... then he'll come back and the process will start again... I know it is about a pack leader thing, and I think jenna has finally learned that I am pack leader... sometimes... its very difficult for me when I have grown up NOT being the pack leader! lol

I just want to hear similar stories and how people have dealt with it... maybe even some funny stories...

and please, if someone wants to have a go because I am not doing the right thing, then say it in a friendly way!

Thanks in advance guys!

Leelaa17, sometimes dogs learn a routine over an actual command, like the back door example, the dog understands the requirements for the reward to come inside, but may not necessarily understand the actual sit command as such which is clouded in a particular routine. I have worked with many dogs that perform a rountine obediently well, but walking the dog on the street and command sit for example, they remain standing, no way will they sit, so you have to train the sit basically from scratch. I agree with Nekhbet's suggestion guiding the dog into place because often that's all it takes for the penny to drop outside of a particular routine what sit really means or with a hands off approach, hold a yummy treat over his head and moving it backwards will cause an involentary sit, then praise and reward.

[poodlefan]

Leela join a dog obedience club and/or get some lesson from a trainer. This dog sounds like he's blowing you off because he isn't motivated to please you and there aren't any consequences when he doesn't. You need to learn how to motivate him.

First of all, thank you all very much for your input - a lot of different suggestions which I am willing to take on board and try all!!!

Just in relation to your comment PF - when he goes to obedience class, he is the most obedient dog there... lol doesnt take his eyes off me, does everything I ask immediately, the only thing he doesnt do, is walk calmly next to me to our group - he pulls like crazy, but we are working on that too!

Thank you all again for comments, you're all amazing and I appreciate every one of your suggestions and stories!

Smart dog this one, he's learned to be obedient in a particular situation. Your challenge is to proof what he gives you in class into other places.