Jumabaar Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) So it has been a rather sad few weeks. I bred a litter of happy healthy Kelpie pups, or so I thought. At 7 weeks I had to put two of my beautiful boys to sleep due to spontaneous bleeding. One boy had developed a limp, and swollen Stifle at 5 weeks of age, but it wasnt till 7 weeks that we found out it was actually a bleed into a joint. He cut his tongue and did not clot. And I had to let him run free. The second boy was happy and healthy for another 5 days, until he bled into his abdomen, muscles and elbow joint. Their clotting times were normal (not expected) so we took blood from them and my remaining two boys and sent it all off to Melbourne university for testing for Von Willerbrands disease and a factor 8 deficiency. A month later the lab still has not bothered to send us the results. We were told that they were testing Von Willerbrands every fortnight so am at a loss as to why we dont have results back yet. And on to the story of my third little boy- Yellow, who was to be called Kane by his forever family. He developed a lump on his carpus (wrist) at 9 weeks of age. We did clotting times which came back normal, and he was diagnosed with a bite (puppy or insect....) at 10 weeks of age he started crying in his sleep, but was normal when he woke up. He was put on IV morphine and Antibiotics and the symptoms resolved. He came back to us and we noted a tiny clot in is poo- diagnosed as collitis. It eventually resolved and I got really excited- he had clotted!! Sunday night he was playing with his littermates and had managed to steal a shoe. Another pup jumped on him, causing a small cut in the roof of his mouth. After four hours we took him into sydney university- and once again had to leave him there. We rang yesterday morning to be told he had clotted after they put some glue on the wound. But only to be told his aPPT (activated partial thromboplastin time) was now significantly prolonged. :cry: So now we have a tentative diagnosis of Haemophilia A for him. I am completely devastated. I still have to go and see the specialist, but at the moment he is bright and happy, and not in danger. I just dont know what to do. The bitch had already had a litter and my two boys from that litter are 4 years old and have not had unusual bleeds that we know of, and there have been no cases that I know of. So I guess I am brining Yellow home in the next day or so and then I have to make decisions about his future. My mum has offered to take care of him. But ultimately what level of cotton wool do I wrap him in, how many risks do I take with him. I don't want him around his litter mates any more, and I dont want him around my other dogs. I am petrified about teething in a months time, and what that will hold for him. I still have two of his litter sisters to sell, because I took down the add when the boys got sick, and I didnt know what was going on. I had arranged to send his brother off to his forever home on wednesday, but how can I do that when there is a chance he could have it too???? Has anyone else had the experience of a moderate/mild haemophilic dog? Or has any one else had problems with melbourne university getting results back? I just thought I would add that the vets at sydney uni have been helpful. Edited June 10, 2011 by ~Woofen~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 No advice but a HUGE HUG from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) Oh no what an awful time for you. Is there a test for Haemaphilia A?? I would not send any puppies out until you know wether or not they have a clotting issue. I am quite sure even though the people are waiting on their babies they would be more than happy if their breeder is not willing to send them a puppy that could a serious issue. How very sad for the babies you have lost. Big hugs to you, I ma sure you will need every hug you can get. Is it just one of those things or is there a breed predisposition? I am thinking for me personally I would be looking at euthanaisa for a dog with this sort of issue. They would never have a normal life and for an active breed they would not be able to run and tumble and play as they would feel the need to. If he misjudges and runs into a gate way or door frame he could end up in a serious medical condition and in a lot of pain. Such an awful time and some very very hard decisions for you Edited May 24, 2011 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) I still have two of his litter sisters to sell, because I took down the add when the boys got sick, and I didnt know what was going on. I had arranged to send his brother off to his forever home on wednesday, but how can I do that when there is a chance he could have it too???? How awful for you Poor little pups. This is such a horrible thing hanging over the head of a new puppy owner ... worried all the time , trying to keep a pup safe .. what if they scratch/bump themselves while there are no humans around ? What if they need surgery? No chewing bones or sticks in case of injury...and, yes, teething , never knowing if/when it was going to happen hard decisions for you to make - Edited May 24, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I would get the two sisters speyed since they're possible carriers of it too. Hang off until the tests come back, ring the lab and demand you want them NOW since you are having medical issues that require these results. Hound them if you have to they're just being lazy. What a terrible time you must be having with it hope the little boys are OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I'm really sorry. That must have been horrible for you. Do give the uni a call, or get your vet to do so - the lab could have misplaced the sample, could have lost the results, perhaps they thought someone has called you back already, etc. Either way, you won't know unless you call them and bug them about your results. Pretty sure Haemophilia A (clotting factor 8 deficiency) is usually a sex linked recessive, meaning that if the pups are symptomatic then your bitch must be a carrier on one of her X chromosomes. When bred to a normal male dog, half of the male pups will have the disorder, half will be fine, none will carry (whereas half the female pups will be normal, and half will carry). It will be the same odds if you breed her again to any other dog. I don't know if it's a common condition in kelpies. I've never heard of it being so, but then again, we don't get many kelpies over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ons Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 no answers but just want to give you lots of hugs, I feel so sad for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Thank you for that info Staranais, very interesting. I agree bug them for your results - you need to know and now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarLapyz Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) Oh no what an awful time for you. Is there a test for Haemaphilia A?? I would not send any puppies out until you know wether or not they have a clotting issue. I am quite sure even though the people are waiting on their babies they would be more than happy if their breeder is not willing to send them a puppy that could a serious issue. How very sad for the babies you have lost. Big hugs to you, I ma sure you will need every hug you can get. Is it just one of those things or is there a breed predisposition? I am thinking for me personally I would be looking at euthanaisa for a dog with this sort of issue. They would never have a normal life and for an active breed they would not be able to run and tumble and play as they would feel the need to. If he misjudges and runs into a gate way or door frame he could end up in a serious medical condition and in a lot of pain. Such an awful time and some very very hard decisions for you There is a test for Factor VIII concentration that gives a good indication. We sent bloods off to Melbourne Uni about a month ago and they still haven';t gotten back to us. Spoke to another provider this morning who can do the tests in a week so need to talk to the vet about sending new samples off. Whether they can have a normal life or not depends on how bad they have the disease. You need about 20% of normal factor 8 levels to function normally in 'normal' circumstances. i.e.anything but major trauma or surgery and they are fine. If they have less than 5% of the normal amount they are unable to have a 'normal' life. So it really depends on severity whether he can have a normal life or not. The testing should show hoe bad it is (if we ever get results back). Atm fingers are crossed that Kane only has a mild case. I would get the two sisters speyed since they're possible carriers of it too. Hang off until the tests come back, ring the lab and demand you want them NOW since you are having medical issues that require these results. Hound them if you have to they're just being lazy. What a terrible time you must be having with it hope the little boys are OK The girls can't have the disease. Hemophilia A is X linked, so the girls can't have it cause the Sire doesn't. At least there is some good news there We can also get the girls tested (so we know if they are carriers or not). So carriers won't get bread from. (* Disclaimer I am Woofen's housemate so have been around for the whole thing) Edit: oh btw the condition is completely unreported in kelpies Edited May 24, 2011 by agentvee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 yup Haemophilia A is X-linked recessive. Females can only be carriers (2 copies of X) whereas there is a 50% chance a male will develop it in a litter with a carrier mother (he gets one of her X chromasomes). Sire has nothing to do with it except create more carriers if you use a confirmed haemophiliac male. It has the same mode of inheritence as it does in humans. It's one of those diseases where the affected males do not breed usually hence not passed on. In GSDs it's more common and linked back to a dog called Canto von der Wienerau. I think it's also one of the listed diseases in Kelpies hence why Woofen would have sent off for clotting factor VIII to be tested in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Trust me the lab has been hounded!! I have now found another Lab (vetnostics) that has guaranteed a one week turn around so that we can find out about the other little boy. They apparently told the vet that she would get the results when they were ready to give them to her :eek: we should have had results on Von Willerbrands back a fortnight ago so I am really very upset with Melbourne university!! They said we would get them back this Wednesday. I think I will be taking it further with them because it must not just be me that has been left hanging in the past/future..... Nothing from this litter will be bred from, and I wont be breeding from my older animals either. There has been some interest in looking at seeing if they can isolate the gene using blood from my litter and their relatives. There is no way I want to let this get into my breed, I would not want to experience this again, nor let anyone else go through this. That is why my first boy ended up at Sydney Uni, because I wanted answers! It has never been heard of in Kelpies that I know of. But I guess if it was quite sever puppies might not even make it through the birthing process..... And very mild cases often are never seen unless there is sever trauma or surgery which in breeding stock may never happen. Regarding this puppy after a fair amount of thought he will be coming home and staying with my mother, away from my other dogs. He will be kept for as long as he has quality of life. He managed to clot himself from the wound on his mouth and his PVC is already back to 31 a day later (not sure what it dropped too). The vet is recommending seeing how he goes for a month, and seeing what the results say. The fact that the other two boys had normal clotting times as they were actively bleeding (at PCVs of 15) out makes this even less black and white. The first two boys had spontaneous bleeds, whereas this little man has only bleed with trauma. And the fact that he had normal clotting times before he had this bleed, so he might only be mildly affected. Ugh there are just so many different scenarios running through my mind right now. The longer I have him the more I will want to save him, but at this point my criteria is that if he bleeds spontaneously I will put him to sleep. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I have had to defer uni (veterinary science) because I have missed to many practicals to pass my subjects- because I have been at the vets So everything has just piled up on top of everything else. The upside to me deferring is that I can get a job to pay off my vet bills. I really am trying to do the best thing for the puppies and puppy buyers. It would all just be so much easier if I had some of the results!! At this point nothing is set in stone. I have booked in to actually talk to the specialist at 5 tonight to discuss his future, and visit the little bloke. He will be in there for a few more days for monitoring. She has been very upfront with me through all this, and knows that I wont have an animal sit in pain. But he is a happy bright bubbly puppy who loves to play fetch and put holes in my pants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 ahhh woofen so sorry you're having such a frustrating time I hope the labs can work out what it is for you quickly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Aw, that sucks about deferring. Will they let you in next year straight away? Over here they don't always, which can be heartbreaking when people have to wait multiple years to get back in to vet. Because you're a vet student you should be able to get onto VIN for free if you're not already - it's an amazing resource for anything veterinary, including hundreds of pages about coagulopathies & you can ask questions of boarded specialists for free. So, may be of some help for all the questions you probably have? Just a suggestion. www.vin.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Staranais- I have joined VIN so hopefully I can log in tomorrow. I THINK I can go straight back in next year- we ended up with quite a large year when they changed the course and a number of people failed so I cant see it being a problem (although I will have to ask) So back from the specialist...... We are going to send bloods to Cornell University for all of them, to get definitive answers and because it should be able to tell me which girls are carriers (who will need to be desexed at a location that has blood on hand just in case) and find out how badly affected Yellow is (although this does not necessarily equate to how he will be affected clinically.) I am just thoroughly over Melbourne University, and they were quite rude to my Vet!! She was quite upset about how they treated her and I am sure some people would have taken it out on her. She believes he is only Mildly to Moderate/Mildly affected- basically that he does have the ability to clot, it just takes him a while. The longer he goes without spontaneous bleeding, the better his prognosis. Basically we cant tell anything until it happens. While he has no spontaneous bleeding, and no Haemathrosis (bleeding into the joints) she and I believe he can have a good quality of life. Yes he will be kept quiet, no outdoor zoomies with the other dogs, but he can be around them, and will just be crated when we go out. I have explained it all to the other boys owner (a friend of mine as he was going out on breeders terms) and it is up to her regarding taking him in the next few days. She wont make a decision till I know the turn around to Cornell so if it is quick she will wait. The reasoning- she is hoping for a Flyball dog so wants to start socialising/bonding and the fact he has shown NO signs of bleeding, he could only be mildly affected. I spoke to her tonight and she was wonderful. She was happy for me to keep him longer, but is considering taking him regardless of his results. We are soooooo far behind in veterinary treatment here. It is sooooo frustrating. Apparently in the US they have gene therapy for dogs with haemophilia as well as a variety of other blood products for dogs with other clotting disorders, but they haven't brought them out..... For no reason other than they haven't brought them out!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnesse Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 How devastating Woofen to you, I can't even imagine what you are going through and those poor gorgeous babies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Very sad to hear all this, they were a lovely litter. No advice for you, just wanted to say how sorry I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Very sad to hear all this, they were a lovely litter. No advice for you, just wanted to say how sorry I am. me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 How rude are Melbourne Uni!!! Glad you have found somewhere else to get them done at least then you can get answers for each of your babies. Lots of hugs and Whippet kisses to you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarLapyz Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 How rude are Melbourne Uni!!! Glad you have found somewhere else to get them done at least then you can get answers for each of your babies. Lots of hugs and Whippet kisses to you all Thanks! Kinda insane that the quickest way to get accurate results is to send samples to America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoPaws Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Very sad to hear all this, they were a lovely litter. No advice for you, just wanted to say how sorry I am. me too And from me too Woofen, Agentvee and Bubbas. I can't access the emoticons on the work computer but sending a huge cyber hug xoxo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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