Kirislin Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I take photos purely for fun. I dont consider I have alot of ability or even a real eye for photography. I'm not fishing for compliments here, I know I have taken some good photos, ones I am happy with. I have no desire to do it professionally. I've read that professionals dont like people who sell photos cheaply or even give them away because it detracts from their work and probably makes people not appreciate the work and skill that they put into their photography and I understand their point. So is it wrong of me to give my photos away? I am starting to get a few people offering to buy them, particularly the ones of their own dogs, the last 2 days in a row people wanted to buy them. If I sell them it takes everything to a different level, even with regards to insurance. I dont want to go there but what am I to do? I dont want to stop taking photos and if I get a good one I love to show it to the owner, that's half the fun of it for me. I hope I dont incur the wrath of the professionals here but I am not sure what answer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) Kirislin .. I'm a bit like you - love taking my photos ..and am certainly no professional hey- why not put your stuff on Redbubble ?.. then if people want to buy one - they deal with RB, not you .. you don't have to change anything.... mind you- you won't get much financial reward that way- BUT people get a good quality product..and you have your beautiful work there vailable for us all to admire ;) Edited May 24, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 I have got a redbubble site but I only started it to make calendars for friends, then I started putting the whippet racing ones on to make calendars for our club. All the money for calendars I sell there I donate to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I have stuff on RB ..and if someone says "I love that photo.. can I have a copy....?" I give them the URL ;) That way I don't have the hassle of getting stuff printed/framed ..and they get what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Like you Kirislin - I in no way think I am professional.. I LOVE taking pictures of kids and babies and I have done some sessions for work friends and family friends.. I'm now starting to edge into newborn and adult photography which are both a league of their own and sooo much more difficult!! since I have put some of my work on facebook I've had nearly 6 enquiries from other people I don't know wanting to know prices for family sessions within a month of me putting my photos on facebook! I was really chuffed but didn't know what the heck I was going to do in regards to cost. Because it is a little bit weird turning up for strangers and spending hours of my time taking photos and editing them for nothing. Don't get me wrong, I love doing it and I am not in it for money as I work full-time - but where do you draw the line? Do you just keep giving everything away because you are not a professional and you have not yet earned the title therefore you do not qualify to charge money for your efforts? I have seen plenty of facebook photography pages selling their services for a mere $50 per session with all photos included. A wise DOLer gave me some great advice (thank you again!!) which I have applied and it seems to work for me. I have scared off maybe one or two people with me reiterating that I am not a professional and I can refer them to a great photographer who can guarentee great pictures.. I think go for it Kirislin, do what Persephone suggested with the redbubble as that way you don't have to deal with them directly and you know the quality of the prints is going to be good. Congrats!! PS - I think you have a GREAT eye for photography and you should be proud of your work. If I took the shots you do I would be shouting it from the top of the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huga Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 The short answer is that selling images too cheaply devalues photography. Using wedding photography as an example: 8hrs of shooting, plus many hours of culling and processing. Joe Bloggs is a shoot and burner who charges $300 for a disc of images for a wedding. He has a day job, this is just a hobby, so $300 sounds pretty great to him. He may or may not be good. Doesn't matter really. Professional Photgrapher sells wedding packages from $2000. This his business, his life and he takes it very seriously. So how does the Professional Photographer compete with Joe Bloggs? Obviously some will be able to see the difference in quality, but you know what? Lots of people can't. If you are just starting out, work out your pricing (the hours you spend, what you're worth) and discount it while your are portfolio building. Let people know that it is a discounted rate for PBing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda K Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) There is nothing at all wrong with sticking strictly to taking photos as a hobby if that is what you want to do, family and friends are not always the best people to advise you on whether you should be doing it as a business, as they do not necessarily know what makes the basis of a good image, what is good exposure etc. You don't have to be in business to take photos of what you want (ie your own kids, your own dog, scenery etc), but IMO it is wrong to take money from people for a session and act as if you are a business if you are not - for one you have an insurance issue, and could be badly burnt if you ran into a situation where you needed public liability cover if things went wrong and you did not have it (fancy losing your home instead?) I think one of the main problems is that cameras are an easily accessible item, and camera manufacturers now seem to be doing everything they can to ensure no one needs to learn anything about how to take a photo, they will design a camera to take care of that - think the models that now have the face recognition, and now the canon tru-capture, to take away the pains of learning how to focus and expose properly. SIGH It just seems to cheapen all of what many of us have taken many pains to learn so that it is all 2nd nature (nailing focus, reading the light, post processing etc), and make it seem like it is not really any effort at all, just let your camera decide it all instead, it can fix everything (I would make the point the that looking at the images on the tru capture site - lots of lobster people there (too red in the skin, and colour casts galore, but the man on the street probably wouldn't even worry about that) If you want to take images, I would still do it, and certainly if you took a shot while doing so of someone elses I would offer them the shot but would not charge for doing this (unless there was an official shooter, and any images should only be taken by them, then it would be courtesy not to do so and I would not be offering an at all) Going and specifically doing a shoot - that to me would be a different story though, and could as I have said, open to a bad problem if things go wrong during the shoot. King of like saying - don't go to a hairdresser and get a hair cut, come to me, I will give you one, as I am not sure what I am doing, so will give away my trial and error results. Edited May 24, 2011 by Linda K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Like you Kirislin - I in no way think I am professional.. I LOVE taking pictures of kids and babies and I have done some sessions for work friends and family friends.. I'm now starting to edge into newborn and adult photography which are both a league of their own and sooo much more difficult!! since I have put some of my work on facebook I've had nearly 6 enquiries from other people I don't know wanting to know prices for family sessions within a month of me putting my photos on facebook! I was really chuffed but didn't know what the heck I was going to do in regards to cost. Because it is a little bit weird turning up for strangers and spending hours of my time taking photos and editing them for nothing. Don't get me wrong, I love doing it and I am not in it for money as I work full-time - but where do you draw the line? Do you just keep giving everything away because you are not a professional and you have not yet earned the title therefore you do not qualify to charge money for your efforts? I have seen plenty of facebook photography pages selling their services for a mere $50 per session with all photos included. A wise DOLer gave me some great advice (thank you again!!) which I have applied and it seems to work for me. I have scared off maybe one or two people with me reiterating that I am not a professional and I can refer them to a great photographer who can guarentee great pictures.. I think go for it Kirislin, do what Persephone suggested with the redbubble as that way you don't have to deal with them directly and you know the quality of the prints is going to be good. Congrats!! PS - I think you have a GREAT eye for photography and you should be proud of your work. If I took the shots you do I would be shouting it from the top of the world! Ange I haven't even gone as far as you, I dont watermark my photos, I dont do sessions for people, I just take my camera with me when I walk my dogs or when we have our whippet fun days, or last Sunday at the Tooradin whippet races. I am not even thinking about going professional in the future. I just happen to have a fantastic camera and lenses, because now they are accessible to the masses and sometimes I get really good shots with them. When I do I am happy to share them rather than have them sitting on my computer unseen by anyone else. I appreciate what Huga is saying, and this is my concern, I dont want to devalue (thanks Huga, I couldn't think of the word) the professionals, but I want to continue to enjoy having fun with my camera. I suppose if someone approaches me about taking photos I can just refer them on to some of the DOLers I know who now do it for a business. LindaK no one is advising me to go professional, it's just that lately I've been asked to sell some of the photos I've taken. Each time I just offered to email them copies but I kept thinking about what I've read here and on photography forums in the past about people cheapening the industry. I feel a bit bad about it. I think for me, Persephones suggestion is the one I need to follow, if someone asks for a copy of a pic, I'll put it on redbubble for them and send them the link. Thanks Persephone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binx Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Ahhh, Kirislin, I too enjoy taking pictures, although not of the same calibre as yours, but there have been some i have been really pleased with, and these I have given as gifts, part of the creative process for me is the giving.... I acknowledge what professional photographers invest in their craft, i dont however see that this should make the art form off limits to non professionals, there has to be room for all levels, and if someone wishes to purchase an image you have created, you should have the right to do it. You are nt setting yourself up a a professional, and the market is different. Good luck Kirislin, follow your instincts and enjoy it.... for what its worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 You don't have to be in business to take photos of what you want (ie your own kids, your own dog, scenery etc), but IMO it is wrong to take money from people for a session and act as if you are a business if you are not - for one you have an insurance issue, and could be badly burnt if you ran into a situation where you needed public liability cover if things went wrong and you did not have it (fancy losing your home instead?) So where do you draw the line with people who are taking the time to learn and trying to do things the correct way? Do you just refuse to do 'sessions' for people because you don't have an ABN or insurance? I'm an amateur who is learning and discovering new things every day. But until I have an ABN I should put a halt on my learning with sessions or just turn up and spend time with strangers and hours editing and more learning for free? They tell their friends 'oh hey we got these pics done for free, you should too'. I enjoy doing it for family and friends but when it comes to complete strangers it kind of becomes 'work' then. I find I got that extra bit more to make sure the images I get are going to be worth keeping.. I just don't see the happy middle in bridging your way into professional photography.. your either damned if you don't or damned if you do. I don't want to sound like one of those numptees who is just dismissing professionals like yourself Linda and saying 'oh but I have a DSLR I can charge money' - and there are plenty out there, but where and how do we cross that bridge? My newborn sessions and adult sessions have so far been free until I can grasp properly on posing/lighting/PP - but yet I came out my door the other day to find a bag of goodies including a dinner voucher from one couple after I refused money from them. Do I give it back? sorry to hijack your thread Kirislin. Great advice here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) No worries Ange, I dont mind if it goes on a tangent, these discussions come up every now and then, usually I haven't really read them much as they didn't concern me. They still dont really because I dont have a long term goal to become a professional. I have decided what I will do in my situation. :D Edited May 24, 2011 by Kirislin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashanali Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I think Linda and Huga have covered my thoughts. However I'd just like to say Huga... you sound like a pro-photographer now. lol. It really IS different when you're on the other side of the fence isn't it? It's amazing how much you have to learn and how fast when you're trying to kick start (or run) a business. :D Good for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda K Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) Ange - great for you wanting to make a break into the business - if you are really serious about it, a great place to go and learn is ilovephotography.com which is a site dedicated to child photography and learning the craft etc. The main suggestion there is before you make the jump to charging, there is nothing wrong with doing a free session to practice and learn the craft, so long as all parties are aware of what is going on - for you the chance to learn, practice getting t know your camera and lenses inside and out, learn how to read light, learn how to pose people etc, so that you can be confident going into any situation (bad light etc), and get consistent good results each and every time, not just fluke the odd good shot but know how to get it any time you want, and also get the post processing work down pat. During that practice time, it would be expected that you would normally be doing a time for disc session (ie you are not charging anything at all, as there is no guarantee what you do will be awesome, and you give maybe 5 or 10 shots of your choice to the family on a disc as a thanks for them giving you their time. If they choose to give you anything else, that is up to them, the point being you have made it clear it is only for practice. Once you have got all of that nailed, then and only then would I suggest charging for what you are doing, and this say being reduced for a limited time - eg work out what you want to charge, and then offer a portfolio building sessions (only for as long as it takes to build out the portfolio in certain areas - eg newborns so you have a nice variety f those type of shots to show off), which I would then offer as a % off the prices - that way people know what you will be charging when you are not portfolio building. This is the stage that I would certainly suggest you have at least insurance, ABN may not be necessary until you are making a certain amount of profit, but check with your accountant. Whilst the amount you decide to charge is up to you, I would certainly suggest at the least work out what is a happy place you would like to earn, how many sessions yo would then need to do to make that, and how much you would then need to earn from each session. I would also suggest you think about what goes into a print too when working out the price - it is not only the cost of paper that you need to think of, which is why those photographers conducting a full on shoot, and giving away the farm by selling the whole session disc for $50 (or as one I saw yesterday had, $200 for a 2 hour shoot, plus all images in print and on CD) are not doing themselves any favours - work out how much time for the shoot, petrol and time afterwards processing etc you have spent, and at these prices, you are basically still doing it all for nothing (or maybe effectively you are paying them to have a shoot) - and haven't even gone into the expenses of running the business, like spares of all the gear, hardrives (and backups of those), to store all the images, etc etc. Certainly not wanting to say damned if you do, damned if you don't, only that I know others who have gone in without having thought of the insurance say for starters, and it has been a very big financial disaster, so only wanting to spare others needing to learn that lesson the hard way. Another hard thing to learn is that you will quite often need to attract new and different clients at each stage of the whole process, which depending on where you live, might not be easy - those who are more than happy to line up and make you do all that work for free are not necessarily going to value the work and be prepared to pay for the same thing, and those that get a discounted price may not willing to pay full price - chances are they will go and find someone else who is learning their craft, as they may not really care that you can take a shot without any blowouts, while the new person they have found has massive areas of blown highlights, but they don;t care one way or another, price is all they care about. And FWIW, this was the model I did, practiced on anything and everything, and everyone I could, read everything I could, did workshops till I knew my camera backwards and forwards (and practiced some more), did some freebie shoots giving up to 10 shots of my choice on a disc, then doing PB shoots starting at 50% off, then 25% off, till I then started charging full price. I did this over a course of several years, once I had decided I wanted to pursue this as more than a hobby. I gave the same love and attention to all the work I did, whether it was the freebie shoots I did, the % off or the full shoots, as I also took the 1st 2 as good chances to also practice my behind the scenes skills (like how quickly I could edit the shoot, and working on getting down the time taken per image once I was comfortable with how to edit a shot to get a certain look) And I still also practice every day. Sorry Krislin to hijack, I think what you do with the calendars is a great idea, and RB sounds like another good idea too for those shots Edited May 24, 2011 by Linda K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 I think Linda and Huga have covered my thoughts. However I'd just like to say Huga... you sound like a pro-photographer now. lol. It really IS different when you're on the other side of the fence isn't it? It's amazing how much you have to learn and how fast when you're trying to kick start (or run) a business. :D Good for you! And I do understand where you are both coming from, and support what you say, I just didn't know what to do in my situation which seems to be a bit different from many whose long term goal is to become a professional. Ash what do you suggest in my situation? I thought Persephones suggestion was a good one, but do you have another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huga Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) I think Linda and Huga have covered my thoughts. However I'd just like to say Huga... you sound like a pro-photographer now. lol. It really IS different when you're on the other side of the fence isn't it? It's amazing how much you have to learn and how fast when you're trying to kick start (or run) a business. :D Good for you! I am lucky enough to be able to do a lot of second shooting (for you guys and others) and I am so grateful for that. There is absolutely nothing like being out there learning with such knowledgable professionals. Kirislin, I'm honestly not sure what to do in your situation. I would still charge though, at least something. The RB idea is a good one Think of it this way too - each shot you take is coming off the life of your camera and lenses. There is also that Flickr Pro account to think about I went off on the wedding tangent because it's something that I have been thinking about a lot lately. I get enquiries though, but I am yet to make a booking. They always end up getting back to me and saying my friend/cousin/uncle bob has a 50D and is going to do the photos for me for $200/free. It makes me cringe because they are leaving the memories of one of the biggest days of their lives up to this person. But if they don't want to pay my (still very reasonable) prices, that's fine, because I'm not spending a day (and lots of nights processing) from my family for $200. ETA I would just like to add, that I never, ever set out to become a 'professional'. It kind of grew. Which is how it happens for a lot of people I guess. But it did take me by suprise. If you told me two years ago I would be shooting with the likes of Savvy, I would've laughed in your face. Edited May 24, 2011 by huga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:ange: Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Great thread full of great knowledgeable input.. Again sorry to hijack your thread Kirislin! Have taken to PM to prevent further derailing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 I dont consider you are hijacking it, it's all part of the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anniek Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 It is a real dilema isn't it Kirislin? I take lots and lots of photo's of greyhounds - on behalf of Greyhound Safety Net. I am a volunteer, and take photo's for the annual Calendar and various Xmas and greeting cards. I put a lot of stuff up on red bubble - as a fundraising site. I get the Xmas cards and calendars professionally typeset and printed - not through red bubble as the idea is to make a prfofit So, I visit foster carers and adopters for "photo shoots" and quite often the adopters want to buy prints from me, and/or want me to take pics of their other dog. I do try the "I am not a professional" line, but hell I am there - with all my gear, usually lying on my belly in a paddock - taking photo's to be "published" and sold for money So of course they don't believe me and persist with it So, what I do is put extra pics (to the particular one I want to use) up on redbubble so they can buy cards etc. And they often tell me that I know greyhounds, which is true - apparently I have a special ability to photograph their souls. If people start throwing figures around - like $100 and above. then I do arrange to "sell" them large prints etc, but I do it for a donation to Greyhound Safety Net. I can take out my expenss for prints etc, but the rescue makes extra money. I only ever email very small files if asked. I am covered by GSN volunteer insurance for public liability, and all my gear is insured by me :D I have done a couple of Christenings for "cousins" whih has been the Christening gift. Do I want to do it professionally for me? I dunno. So, I have been absolutely no help at all have I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I haven't read all the responses. I don't charge for dog photography. I absolutely love it, I do what I want and I do it in the timeframe that suits me, so I give the photos to the owners. I have an ABN as a photographer, and I do charge for other stuff, but I don't do much of it because I discovered I hate professional photography....it's just not me. I love doing what I want to do, I don't like doing what other people want me to do. Wedding photography, I'd rather poke hot needles in my own eyes than photograph another wedding. However, I do some corporate stuff for Telstra for which I get paid a healthy fee, but that's not often and I'd never do that stuff for nothing. I charge about the same as other pro photographers. Some pro photography I've seen is rubbish and they really have no right calling themselves professional. Others are fantastic, take a lot of pride in their work and charge a fee equivalent to the photos they take. The fact is, photography is a very popular hobby and there are always going to be amateurs doing what professionals do for a living, and de-valuing it by either giving it away or doing it on the cheap. That's life, the pro photographers who've been around a very long time and make a living from it have dealt with that fact for years and manage to rise above it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redangel Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I have great respect for professional photographers. (Flame Suit on) But lets face it everyone starts somewhere. Good advice LindaK. Some cut it, some dont. Some have good mentors & have resourced great learning courses, others dont progress too far despite their interest/talent. Not all professional photographers have 'years of experience' prior to embarking out into the market, some just 'have it'. Has anyone paid for a professional "pixie" photo??? I have many friends who have...not once did they question the 'abilities' of their photographer. Personally they fail to impress me. Im happy to give my photos away,as not everyone can afford such sittings. I have done some promo stuff (advertising & website) but nothing gives me pleasure than sharing photos with my friends & family. Great gifts. Interesting topic Kirislin. I think donating your talents like you do is awesome idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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