JoeK Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Aggression is very complex issue and much of the theory is basing on fear aggression which is the most common to see, but findings in the researching on fear aggression is different to other types of aggression, so I say for normal gauging what happens, you cant apply the fear aggression principal on the dog acting on social aggression or fighting drive because is different mindsetting on the dog if you looking for reasoning on the behavior. I wonder if you noticed that I wasn't attempting to explain the behaviour? I don't think I have enough information to do that. I don't think any of us do. And I don't think it matters. The topic asks whether the owner of the staffy mix should pay for the husky's vet bills. I don't think this is some sort of grey area depending on what kind of aggression was being displayed or what the individual personality of either of the dogs may or may not be. Your dog is your responsibility, and that means everything they do is your responsibility. Like K&P says, it is really quite simple. My point is the Staffy behavior is normal if the dog carry the trait of social aggression is exactly what they do, but what is abnormal at the population level is seeing this behavior unfolding in the fight because not many people taking dogs like this for interacting with other dogs. Many dog behavior like this Staffy dog does is sometimes thinking dog having loose screws in his head or maybe having brain tumor on the diagnose of abnormal in the behavior something wrong with the dog, but if the dog carry the trait for doing this behavior, is nothing wrong with the dog is just this type of dog is not good for safe pet around the other dogs. I think it's a stretch to label the dog as having a "social aggression" trait without knowing much about the dog. A lack of bite inhibition and a readiness to engage in a fight could be attributed to any number of personality elements or learning history. Aggression is, as you note yourself, a complex issue. But taking responsibility for your dog's aggressive behaviour is not. The trait has to be in the dog Corvus, otherwise you could be training any German Shepherd Dog for the police work and teach any one to fight but you cant do this without the personality element already in the dogs genes needed for this to be happening in the teaching and learning. I am doubting this Bully dog was trained to fight dogs, maybe he was who nose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive. At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space. That's not what I am thinking of Corvus? My point is that I do know particluar dogs for some reason set off a more aggressive retaliation from a growling episode than others, have you not experienced that before? Sure, but my point is it shouldn't matter what kind of growl it was, because chasing the dog down and delivering multiple uninhibited bites is still a far cry from a 'normal' aggressive response. I can't believe there is so much discussion. Why does it matter why the staffy attacked or what it perceived? How could multiple uninhibited bites to a fleeing dog be considered anything other than wildly inappropriate and downright dangerous? There really are no excuses. I've seen a dog do something silly and threaten a dog that always takes threats seriously and deals with them very aggressively. Still, no one got hurt. It's not usual IME for dogs to get hurt no matter what kind of growl it was. I should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... I said no max and jen would be fine, but I found it odd that she would ask that... why would you bring a dog into a dog park knowing full well that it would go for other dogs???? anyway, I tried to stay away from it... about 10mins later jen went up to the dog to sniff it and the dog turned around and went for jenna making a lot of noise and chasing her and trying to bite her... jenna RAN! she had her tail between her legs and was trying to get away while the dog chased her. Jenna ran straight to me and thankGod she wasn't very far away because the other dog stopped after about 10 metres of trying to get her.. the woman asked if jenna was ok and I said yes she's fine but I took her over to one of the seats to see if she was ok (which she was) and the woman left straight away... Don't really know my point in all this... I just think there is a distinct difference between a dog just saying 'back off' and a dog doing what the lappie did. Same thing with this husky and the staffy... jenna was simply sniffing the dog and the dog went crazy... the husky was simply saying back off and the staffy went crazy. I dunno... I've forgotten my point. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin-Genie Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I think it's a stretch to label the dog as having a "social aggression" trait without knowing much about the dog. A lack of bite inhibition and a readiness to engage in a fight could be attributed to any number of personality elements or learning history. Aggression is, as you note yourself, a complex issue. But taking responsibility for your dog's aggressive behaviour is not. Totally agree Corvus. No matter what psychology/conditioning has resulted in this behaviour, this staffy x is an aggressive dog who should not be allowed off leash where there are other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin-Genie Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 [i should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... Hi Leelaa17, I'm sorry to hear that Jenna got attacked. I would stay away from such crazies. If anyone asked me that question, I would get out of the dog park asap. It's not worth putting your dog in such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 The trait has to be in the dog Corvus, otherwise you could be training any German Shepherd Dog for the police work and teach any one to fight but you cant do this without the personality element already in the dogs genes needed for this to be happening in the teaching and learning. What trait? A "social aggression" trait? I've read a lot of dog personality papers and I've never seen such a trait identified. It wasn't for lack of looking on the researchers' part. People pay a lot of attention to aggression. The thing is, aggressive behaviour is not generally predictive of any personality trait, with the exception of stranger-directed aggression, which specifically relates to human strangers, not dog strangers. So I'm sorry, but I disagree. I do not think the dog has to have a "social aggression" trait in order to react the way it did with such devastating results. When I was a teenager my family had a Whippet cross rescue dog who behaved in a similar manner towards my corgi. The sure sign she was about to attack was a flash of very anxious body language. She was a very soft dog. She just didn't seem to realise there was such thing as ritualised aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think it's a stretch to label the dog as having a "social aggression" trait without knowing much about the dog. A lack of bite inhibition and a readiness to engage in a fight could be attributed to any number of personality elements or learning history. Aggression is, as you note yourself, a complex issue. But taking responsibility for your dog's aggressive behaviour is not. Totally agree Corvus. No matter what psychology/conditioning has resulted in this behaviour, this staffy x is an aggressive dog who should not be allowed off leash where there are other dogs. Perhaps it's not an aggressive dog. Perhaps this is the first time the dog has reacted in such a way to another dog. In general, SBT's and Husky's don't mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 [i should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... Hi Leelaa17, I'm sorry to hear that Jenna got attacked. I would stay away from such crazies. If anyone asked me that question, I would get out of the dog park asap. It's not worth putting your dog in such a situation. Thanks very much odiegenie. I appreciate that Lucky she is ok. She's a bit of a sook though and wouldnt leave my side. lol I know. if anyone ever asks me that question again I am going to be out of there so fast they wont even see me leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 The trait has to be in the dog Corvus, otherwise you could be training any German Shepherd Dog for the police work and teach any one to fight but you cant do this without the personality element already in the dogs genes needed for this to be happening in the teaching and learning. What trait? A "social aggression" trait? I've read a lot of dog personality papers and I've never seen such a trait identified. It wasn't for lack of looking on the researchers' part. People pay a lot of attention to aggression. The thing is, aggressive behaviour is not generally predictive of any personality trait, with the exception of stranger-directed aggression, which specifically relates to human strangers, not dog strangers. So I'm sorry, but I disagree. I do not think the dog has to have a "social aggression" trait in order to react the way it did with such devastating results. When I was a teenager my family had a Whippet cross rescue dog who behaved in a similar manner towards my corgi. The sure sign she was about to attack was a flash of very anxious body language. She was a very soft dog. She just didn't seem to realise there was such thing as ritualised aggression. Instead of reading the paper, would be good experience to ask police dog trainers to observe some training and reacting from dog with people who use the aggression for working and how the different temperaments on the dogs operating then you understand the traits properly and see in your own eyes whats happening. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeK Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 [i should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... Hi Leelaa17, I'm sorry to hear that Jenna got attacked. I would stay away from such crazies. If anyone asked me that question, I would get out of the dog park asap. It's not worth putting your dog in such a situation. Thanks very much odiegenie. I appreciate that Lucky she is ok. She's a bit of a sook though and wouldnt leave my side. lol I know. if anyone ever asks me that question again I am going to be out of there so fast they wont even see me leave. Here is good example on the nerve I explaining. Jenna is German Shepherd Dog, but she didn't recover well from fright which is trait in the genes, you couldnt using the Jenna for police dog although she is Shepherd breeding is wrong trait for combat dog. If Jenna was working dog with the social aggression, she would have nailed that dog from pure instinct is the difference on the reactions you see? Is good Jenna is ok Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 The trait has to be in the dog Corvus, otherwise you could be training any German Shepherd Dog for the police work and teach any one to fight but you cant do this without the personality element already in the dogs genes needed for this to be happening in the teaching and learning. What trait? A "social aggression" trait? I've read a lot of dog personality papers and I've never seen such a trait identified. It wasn't for lack of looking on the researchers' part. People pay a lot of attention to aggression. The thing is, aggressive behaviour is not generally predictive of any personality trait, with the exception of stranger-directed aggression, which specifically relates to human strangers, not dog strangers. So I'm sorry, but I disagree. I do not think the dog has to have a "social aggression" trait in order to react the way it did with such devastating results. When I was a teenager my family had a Whippet cross rescue dog who behaved in a similar manner towards my corgi. The sure sign she was about to attack was a flash of very anxious body language. She was a very soft dog. She just didn't seem to realise there was such thing as ritualised aggression. Instead of reading the paper, would be good experience to ask police dog trainers to observe some training and reacting from dog with people who use the aggression for working and how the different temperaments on the dogs operating then you understand the traits properly and see in your own eyes whats happening. Joe Some of those papers are ABOUT police and military dogs, and the handlers and trainers participated heavily in describing their personalities and behaviour. There's a lot of money in trying to identify what makes a good working dog when so much money and time gets invested into them. I spoke to the fellow that does all the behaviour testing for NSW Police Dogs last year and we had a really good discussion about finding dogs that are right for it. I really enjoyed talking to him. He was saying there is an ideal, but there are also a lot of dogs that get through anyway. Which is why deciding what dogs to invest in is so hard. And the fact that you can't tell what they are going to be like when they are puppies. Everyone is always trying to find ways, but no one has, yet. Although hair whorls may end up being a good indicator. There's some cool genetics for you. You're still convinced that I'm ignorant or else I'd agree with you. Don't worry, it's human nature. I'd be doing the same thing if I actually thought this discussion was relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) I should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... I said no max and jen would be fine, but I found it odd that she would ask that... why would you bring a dog into a dog park knowing full well that it would go for other dogs???? What? Why on earth would you put your dog in that situation? What did you think the outcome would be? What would you have done if Jenna did turn around and nail the Lappie? Edited May 23, 2011 by SecretKei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... I said no max and jen would be fine, but I found it odd that she would ask that... why would you bring a dog into a dog park knowing full well that it would go for other dogs???? What? Why on earth would you put your dog in that situation? What did you think the outcome would be? What would you have done if Jenna did turn around and nail the Lappie? Excuse me, but I didn't 'put my dog in that situation' - it is an incredibly big park and we stayed away from the dog, I turned around and then turned back and Jenna was over sniffing the other dog. And I would've gone over there and gotten her away from the Lappie. There were about 20 other people in the dog park, do you expect us all to leave from one dog? We just went about our business staying away from the dog. The woman shouldn't have brought the dog in in the first place. I understand where you are coming from but don't condemn ME because I wasn't even expecting Jenna to go near the dog... and yes yes 'expect the unexpected' - its happened now. Its over. jennas fine. next time someone comes into the dog park asking that sort of question I will leave. Oh and thanks for the good wishes for jenna :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... I said no max and jen would be fine, but I found it odd that she would ask that... why would you bring a dog into a dog park knowing full well that it would go for other dogs???? What? Why on earth would you put your dog in that situation? What did you think the outcome would be? What would you have done if Jenna did turn around and nail the Lappie? Excuse me, but I didn't 'put my dog in that situation' - it is an incredibly big park and we stayed away from the dog, I turned around and then turned back and Jenna was over sniffing the other dog. And I would've gone over there and gotten her away from the Lappie. There were about 20 other people in the dog park, do you expect us all to leave from one dog? We just went about our business staying away from the dog. The woman shouldn't have brought the dog in in the first place. I understand where you are coming from but don't condemn ME because I wasn't even expecting Jenna to go near the dog... and yes yes 'expect the unexpected' - its happened now. Its over. jennas fine. next time someone comes into the dog park asking that sort of question I will leave. Oh and thanks for the good wishes for jenna :rolleyes: Well if you don't want an incident, then yes. You did put your dog in that situation by remaining in the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Oh for heavens sake. Can this thread go any further off topic? Where do people get off judging others over a situation they didn't even see? I didn't see Leelaa ask for your opinion, SecretKei. Did you? Yes, yes, it's a public forum and if people don't want other people's opinions they shouldn't post. Whatever. Leelaa has a bit to learn, yet. For the record, my dogs have been rushed a few times and it's really no big deal. They get a scare and then they get over it. That's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I should probably note (I didnt want to start a new thread for this) but jenna got attacked on the weekend at the dog park (not badly, she is absolutely fine)... but a woman came in with a lappie (beautiful dog) but as soon as the lappie came in it went for a dog that went up to sniff it... the woman asked if any of the dogs in the dog park would react badly to her having a go at them....... I said no max and jen would be fine, but I found it odd that she would ask that... why would you bring a dog into a dog park knowing full well that it would go for other dogs???? What? Why on earth would you put your dog in that situation? What did you think the outcome would be? What would you have done if Jenna did turn around and nail the Lappie? Excuse me, but I didn't 'put my dog in that situation' - it is an incredibly big park and we stayed away from the dog, I turned around and then turned back and Jenna was over sniffing the other dog. And I would've gone over there and gotten her away from the Lappie. There were about 20 other people in the dog park, do you expect us all to leave from one dog? We just went about our business staying away from the dog. The woman shouldn't have brought the dog in in the first place. I understand where you are coming from but don't condemn ME because I wasn't even expecting Jenna to go near the dog... and yes yes 'expect the unexpected' - its happened now. Its over. jennas fine. next time someone comes into the dog park asking that sort of question I will leave. Oh and thanks for the good wishes for jenna :rolleyes: Common sense would have you say to the Lappie owner " if you think your dog is going to react aggressively, then perhaps the dog park is not the place for your dog " If they didn't get the hint, the any morsel of common sense left over, would have told you that the dog park is no longer a safe place for Jenna and that you as the owner, would make the decision to remove your dog from a situation that has could place her in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Oh for heavens sake. Can this thread go any further off topic? Where do people get off judging others over a situation they didn't even see? I didn't see Leelaa ask for your opinion, SecretKei. Did you? Yes, yes, it's a public forum and if people don't want other people's opinions they shouldn't post. Whatever. Leelaa has a bit to learn, yet. For the record, my dogs have been rushed a few times and it's really no big deal. They get a scare and then they get over it. That's life. Well that says it all... And for the record not all dogs just "get a scare and get over it". If that was the case this thread would never have been started in the first place, would it? Common sense would have you say to the Lappie owner " if you think your dog is going to react aggressively, then perhaps the dog park is not the place for your dog " If they didn't get the hint, the any morsel of common sense left over, would have told you that the dog park is no longer a safe place for Jenna and that you as the owner, would make the decision to remove your dog from a situation that has could place her in danger. Yes, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 And for the record not all dogs just "get a scare and get over it". If that was the case this thread would never have been started in the first place, would it? Well, boy have you set me straight. Because I thought this thread is about a dog injuring another dog and what the responsibility of the owner of the dog that caused the injury was. I don't think anyone knows what this thread is about anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatsofatsoman Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 seriously this thread could've been wrapped up in two posts. The staffy is at fault for rushing and then attacking unprovoked. Whether the husky has a weak nerve or not has no bearing on the staffys behaviour. For Joe's peace of mind - say you are correct and yep the Husky is weak of nerve, does this then validate the Staffys behaviour? I would say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 seriously this thread could've been wrapped up in two posts. The staffy is at fault for rushing and then attacking unprovoked. Whether the husky has a weak nerve or not has no bearing on the staffys behaviour. For Joe's peace of mind - say you are correct and yep the Husky is weak of nerve, does this then validate the Staffys behaviour? I would say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Corvus goodness me who appointed you as the forum police. Threads evolve from their original topic all the time. Excuse me, but I didn't 'put my dog in that situation' - it is an incredibly big park and we stayed away from the dog, I turned around and then turned back and Jenna was over sniffing the other dog. And I would've gone over there and gotten her away from the Lappie. There were about 20 other people in the dog park, do you expect us all to leave from one dog? We just went about our business staying away from the dog. The woman shouldn't have brought the dog in in the first place. I understand where you are coming from but don't condemn ME because I wasn't even expecting Jenna to go near the dog... and yes yes 'expect the unexpected' - its happened now. Its over. jennas fine. next time someone comes into the dog park asking that sort of question I will leave. Oh and thanks for the good wishes for jenna :rolleyes: Well if you don't want an incident, then yes. You did put your dog in that situation by remaining in the park. I agree with SK here... why allow your dog to interact with a dog whose owner just told you will act aggressively and then wonder why your dog was attacked by the same dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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