What Would Be The "right" Thing To Do?

[JoeK]

Is fair to having your opinion Corvus I am respective for that, but maybe should not have fear aggressive dog in the park too that snarls and growls on the bump? The problem happens in the dog world, one growl and posture the other get in first and finish the job before the growling dog can attack the other. The Bully dog he don't know what the Husky going to do so he sort out the problem. I seeing a few beautiful Schutzhund 3 dogs have a fight at the training, perfect obedience and they wont out or do nothing in the dog fight not listen to the handler and they hang them up on the wheelbarra from back legs the buggers. Is very hard stopping dog fight even with the obedience dog when natural instincts kicking in for fighting other dog and they on the tunnel of vision.

Joe

Why is a dog that growls in response to being collided with by a strange dog "fear aggressive"? Sounds like a perfectly normal reaction to me.

Being collided with by a Stafford X wouldn't tickle.

And since when does every growl result in a follow through.. its a warning, not a threat in most cases.

Two thing cause the growling on the bump, weak nerve or dominance. Good nature on the dog can take a bump no worries like the kid step on dogs tail, poor nerve the dog react, good nerve the dog walk away or do nothing, dominance the dog warning growl. This Husky is not dominant otherwise he fight not lay on the ground in the squeal and in nervy dog on my opinion most likely. Many weak nerve dogs around for the pets and because they rect on the telling off supposed, people thinking this is normal behavior, but is not, get a dog with hard nerve and see what happens, they dont react at all and taking a lot of bump and tackle before slightest reacting.

Joe

[JoeK]

The problem happens in the dog world, one growl and posture the other get in first and finish the job before the growling dog can attack the other. The Bully dog he don't know what the Husky going to do so he sort out the problem.

Why is this so hard to grasp? It's not that he 'sorted out the problem' but that he sorted it out with what sounds like uninhibited bites. Erik's 'sorted out' a few problems himself, or tried to, and the dog he sorted out didn't have a mark on them. Both Erik and Kivi have been told off, and the moment they backed off the aggression ceased. They got 'sorted', too, and no one got hurt.

I seeing a few beautiful Schutzhund 3 dogs have a fight at the training, perfect obedience and they wont out or do nothing in the dog fight not listen to the handler and they hang them up on the wheelbarra from back legs the buggers.

So what? I hope they don't get taken to dog parks.

In the dog fight, my point is the dog get into different zoning in the head and what I say is even perfect obedience on the dog to sporting standards in the training will not always making dog release or recall or anything the dog is trained for. I have seen this many times and people with good recall on the dog thinking if he get into a fight they call him back to break it up and the dog doesnt listen is what happens. Dont thinking because of good recall training the dog will come away from a dog fight on command becuase most dont is what I am saying.

Some dogs will sort out the problem until confident the other dog is done. If this Bully dog was true dog aggressive, he would have done a nailing on the Husky straight up, not give him a bump, his propellor winding up to attack the Husky Dog from 50 metres away is true dog aggression with intention to causing injury.

Joe

[JoeK]

Is fair to having your opinion Corvus I am respective for that, but maybe should not have fear aggressive dog in the park too that snarls and growls on the bump?

JoeK you need to get your facts right if you think that a dog who growls and tells off another dog who gets into its face is fear aggressive. The husky's reaction was perfectly normal. Bitches growl and tell off their puppies all the times. Most dogs don't see it as aggression. Most dogs would understand that the other dog is telling them off and walk away.

Is perfectly normal behavior for dogs with weak nerve I agree on this point, but get a dog with strong nerve and playing bump they do nothing, they dont caring is not an issue for them to accept a bumping is what I am meaning on my posting. Plenty people here would have dog who can take a bump without growling and posturing, this is best type of dogs for the pet for my opinion. Telling off on the growl and posture is excuse for weak nerve, but if you thinking that is normal for good nerve dog is ok for me if you believing that no worries.

Joe

[corvus]

Is perfectly normal behavior for dogs with weak nerve I agree on this point, but get a dog with strong nerve and playing bump they do nothing, they dont caring is not an issue for them to accept a bumping is what I am meaning on my posting.

:rolleyes: Again with the weak nerve. I will say this: There is nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't like to be barged. They don't automatically have weak nerve or some dominance issue. Sometimes they just don't like it, you know? For whatever reason. Maybe they don't like to be put off balance around strange dogs. Or maybe they have arthritis and it hurts. Or maybe they are just kinda small like Erik and don't like big dogs knocking them around. A staffy is pretty solid. I don't like it when they barge into me, either. It hurts. I don't like being bumped by people, but no one would say I have 'weak nerve' or a dominance issue if I was having a rotten day and someone bumped me and I growled "watch it" at them. That could have nothing to do with my temperament.

And I don't think obedience even weighs in on this issue. I don't care if the dog is DA or not. I care that it injured another dog.

[PetSitters]

Is perfectly normal behavior for dogs with weak nerve I agree on this point, but get a dog with strong nerve and playing bump they do nothing, they dont caring is not an issue for them to accept a bumping is what I am meaning on my posting.

:rolleyes: Again with the weak nerve. I will say this: There is nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't like to be barged. They don't automatically have weak nerve or some dominance issue. Sometimes they just don't like it, you know? For whatever reason. Maybe they don't like to be put off balance around strange dogs. Or maybe they have arthritis and it hurts. Or maybe they are just kinda small like Erik and don't like big dogs knocking them around. A staffy is pretty solid. I don't like it when they barge into me, either. It hurts. I don't like being bumped by people, but no one would say I have 'weak nerve' or a dominance issue if I was having a rotten day and someone bumped me and I growled "watch it" at them. That could have nothing to do with my temperament.

And I don't think obedience even weighs in on this issue. I don't care if the dog is DA or not. I care that it injured another dog.

My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive. I have a few dogs who will growl in this instance as the Husky did with no retaliation from the offending dog, but I have another couple that seem to instigate aggression in the offending dog with behaviour that appears the same visually. I have experienced also, a growl from one dog will trigger aggression in a particular offending dog where a growl from another dog, the same offending dog accepts it and moves on?

I believe some dogs can instigate an aggressive retaliation from a growl more so than other dogs from what I have experienced.

Edited May 20, 2011 by PetSitters

[corvus]

My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space.

[MalteseLuna]

:rolleyes: Again with the weak nerve. I will say this: There is nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't like to be barged. They don't automatically have weak nerve or some dominance issue. Sometimes they just don't like it, you know? For whatever reason. Maybe they don't like to be put off balance around strange dogs. Or maybe they have arthritis and it hurts. Or maybe they are just kinda small like Erik and don't like big dogs knocking them around. A staffy is pretty solid. I don't like it when they barge into me, either. It hurts. I don't like being bumped by people, but no one would say I have 'weak nerve' or a dominance issue if I was having a rotten day and someone bumped me and I growled "watch it" at them. That could have nothing to do with my temperament.

And I don't think obedience even weighs in on this issue. I don't care if the dog is DA or not. I care that it injured another dog.

I agree with Corvus. I think that growling is a legitimate form of communication between dogs i.e. for one dog to let another know that "what you just did is not okay" - my dog growls to tell off dogs that are jumping on her (ones she knows generally) and my parents dogs growl at her to put her in her place (if she is jumping on them). There are different growls - we aren't as good at discerning the differences as we aren't as good at "hearing" as dogs are.

The staffy is clearly a reactive dog that should NOT be in off-lead scenarios. I hope the husky is okay (physically and 'emotionally')!

[PetSitters]

My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space.

That's not what I am thinking of Corvus? My point is that I do know particluar dogs for some reason set off a more aggressive retaliation from a growling episode than others, have you not experienced that before?

[PetSitters]

:rolleyes: Again with the weak nerve. I will say this: There is nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't like to be barged. They don't automatically have weak nerve or some dominance issue. Sometimes they just don't like it, you know? For whatever reason. Maybe they don't like to be put off balance around strange dogs. Or maybe they have arthritis and it hurts. Or maybe they are just kinda small like Erik and don't like big dogs knocking them around. A staffy is pretty solid. I don't like it when they barge into me, either. It hurts. I don't like being bumped by people, but no one would say I have 'weak nerve' or a dominance issue if I was having a rotten day and someone bumped me and I growled "watch it" at them. That could have nothing to do with my temperament.

And I don't think obedience even weighs in on this issue. I don't care if the dog is DA or not. I care that it injured another dog.

I agree with Corvus. I think that growling is a legitimate form of communication between dogs i.e. for one dog to let another know that "what you just did is not okay" - my dog growls to tell off dogs that are jumping on her (ones she knows generally) and my parents dogs growl at her to put her in her place (if she is jumping on them). There are different growls - we aren't as good at discerning the differences as we aren't as good at "hearing" as dogs are.

The staffy is clearly a reactive dog that should NOT be in off-lead scenarios. I hope the husky is okay (physically and 'emotionally')!

I don't disagree that growling isn't a legitimate form of communication, but I also believe in dog language there is a more threatening growl dog's can exhibit which can potetially trigger a fight especially with a dog who doesn't easily accept intimidation. To explain what I mean is like a guy in the pub bumps a guy spills his beer a bit and says "careful mate" there is generally no aggression. If the guy who gets bumped sprays the guy with a mouth full of expletives and calls him a &*%ker can often trigger a fight. There is a difference between a statement of displeasure than aggravating a situation? what I am saying is that I have seen this scenario in dogs where some dogs attract trouble more than others from displays of defensive behaviour and gesturing.

Edited May 20, 2011 by PetSitters

[corvus]

My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space.

That's not what I am thinking of Corvus? My point is that I do know particluar dogs for some reason set off a more aggressive retaliation from a growling episode than others, have you not experienced that before?

Sure, but my point is it shouldn't matter what kind of growl it was, because chasing the dog down and delivering multiple uninhibited bites is still a far cry from a 'normal' aggressive response.

I can't believe there is so much discussion. Why does it matter why the staffy attacked or what it perceived? How could multiple uninhibited bites to a fleeing dog be considered anything other than wildly inappropriate and downright dangerous? There really are no excuses. I've seen a dog do something silly and threaten a dog that always takes threats seriously and deals with them very aggressively. Still, no one got hurt. It's not usual IME for dogs to get hurt no matter what kind of growl it was.

[aussielover]

Is perfectly normal behavior for dogs with weak nerve I agree on this point, but get a dog with strong nerve and playing bump they do nothing, they dont caring is not an issue for them to accept a bumping is what I am meaning on my posting.

:rolleyes: Again with the weak nerve. I will say this: There is nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't like to be barged. They don't automatically have weak nerve or some dominance issue. Sometimes they just don't like it, you know? For whatever reason. Maybe they don't like to be put off balance around strange dogs. Or maybe they have arthritis and it hurts. Or maybe they are just kinda small like Erik and don't like big dogs knocking them around. A staffy is pretty solid. I don't like it when they barge into me, either. It hurts. I don't like being bumped by people, but no one would say I have 'weak nerve' or a dominance issue if I was having a rotten day and someone bumped me and I growled "watch it" at them. That could have nothing to do with my temperament.

And I don't think obedience even weighs in on this issue. I don't care if the dog is DA or not. I care that it injured another dog.

I agree with Corvus-

My dog is submissive (with other dogs), probably what you would call a "weak nerve" dog, but she doesn't react at all if she is bumped at the dog park and would sometimes even consider it a game.

Additionally she would not react aggressively if someone stood on her tail or a kid pulled her ears or anything like that.

Some dogs need personal space, especially with unfamiliar dogs regardless of their temperament.

[PetSitters]

My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space.

That's not what I am thinking of Corvus? My point is that I do know particluar dogs for some reason set off a more aggressive retaliation from a growling episode than others, have you not experienced that before?

Sure, but my point is it shouldn't matter what kind of growl it was, because chasing the dog down and delivering multiple uninhibited bites is still a far cry from a 'normal' aggressive response.

I can't believe there is so much discussion. Why does it matter why the staffy attacked or what it perceived? How could multiple uninhibited bites to a fleeing dog be considered anything other than wildly inappropriate and downright dangerous? There really are no excuses. I've seen a dog do something silly and threaten a dog that always takes threats seriously and deals with them very aggressively. Still, no one got hurt. It's not usual IME for dogs to get hurt no matter what kind of growl it was.

Most people thankfully are responsible enough not to take dogs with a predisposition for serious aggression into dog parks to mix with other dogs, but there are dogs out there who react to threats from another dog and will make a meal of it like this Staffy did so normally most pet owners are not exposed to dogs like this on a regular basis. What I see as inapproriate is taking a dog like this into a dog park in the first place that poses a danger to other pets but having said that, it has to happen once for the owner of a dangerously reactive dog to know that their dog presents a threat to others to re-assess their management of that dog unfortunately?

Some dogs can be fine and freindly with calm non expressive dogs, but can switch into serious aggression if challenged with defensive growling or posturing. I understand and agree with Corvus that dangerous aggression is rarely seen in a social setting amoungst dog mixing together to gauge normality in dog behaviour, but for the most part this occurs because owners of dogs predisposed to dangerous aggression don't allow their seriously aggressive dogs to mix with others socially to demonstrate the severity of their reactivity and injury affliction capabilities to discover what is normal or abnormal behaviour for particular types of dogs.

Edited May 21, 2011 by PetSitters

[JoeK]

My experience working with all different types of dogs, there is definitely a difference between a "I don't like that growl" and a threatening growl where a particular growl can set another dog off to become aggressive.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, there's "aggressive" and then there's "dangerous". For the most part, aggressive behaviour in dogs is designed to avoid injury. Particularly in social situations where the only resource at stake is personal space.

That's not what I am thinking of Corvus? My point is that I do know particluar dogs for some reason set off a more aggressive retaliation from a growling episode than others, have you not experienced that before?

Sure, but my point is it shouldn't matter what kind of growl it was, because chasing the dog down and delivering multiple uninhibited bites is still a far cry from a 'normal' aggressive response.

I can't believe there is so much discussion. Why does it matter why the staffy attacked or what it perceived? How could multiple uninhibited bites to a fleeing dog be considered anything other than wildly inappropriate and downright dangerous? There really are no excuses. I've seen a dog do something silly and threaten a dog that always takes threats seriously and deals with them very aggressively. Still, no one got hurt. It's not usual IME for dogs to get hurt no matter what kind of growl it was.

Corvus, is surprising to me that you not wanting to learn about the aggression response for your behavior specialising, yes?

Normal aggressive response depends on the drive the aggressive in, there is no normal across the floor boards for all drive that cause the aggression. The Husky react on bumping in either defense drive warning Bully to piss off or reacting in sharpness from startle is only two options here. The Bully dog attack from defence drive fearing what the Husky may do next or he attack in active dog aggression. I am doubting active dog aggression because they are pure aggressive always with other dogs and attack straight away with no provocate, so my opinion he attack in defence drive. In the defence drive can have also fighting drive and social aggression once the fighting begin and if the genetics on the dog has some social aggression in the trait is what causing the dog chomping up bad on the Husky. In the fight the drive can shift around, but it must be in the dog to come out. On the bottom line of the situation here, the Bully dog has wrong trait for the dog park and should not be going there because he is danger on the other dogs, this we agree yes?, what he did when the Husky growl is not abnormal aggression for a dog who carry those traits and hopefully now this Bully dog owner see what he done and keep him on a leash next time now see him do a mongrel on another dog hopefully yes.

Joe

Edited May 21, 2011 by JoeK

[corvus]

Corvus, is surprising to me that you not wanting to learn about the aggression response for your behavior specialising, yes?

It's easy to assume that because I don't agree with you I am not privy to the information you are privy to, and if I seem reluctant to pay attention to what you're saying that I am not interested in learning what you know. It goes both ways, my friend.

what he did when the Husky growl is not abnormal aggression for a dog who carry those traits and hopefully now this Bully dog owner see what he done and keep him on a leash next time now see him do a mongrel on another dog hopefully yes.

What is "normal" for one individual is not necessarily what is "normal" behaviour at the population level. I have no idea what is normal for this dog and why, so all I can do is compare what happened to what I typically see happen in similar situations with different dogs, and what makes evolutionary sense. And that is all I've done. I maintain that the staffy's behaviour was not normal dog behaviour. Whether it was normal for a small subset of dogs or not is not relevant to the point I was making.

Edited May 22, 2011 by corvus

[k9angel]

I hate dog fights. And I hate it when one dog attacks another that is clearly trying to get away and isn't fighting back.

IMO the staffy/his coward owners are at fault. Fancy doing the bolt like that...

Poor husky getting barged like that to begin with. Staffies are solid little buggers, usually - that would of been a shock in itself for the husky. No wonder he growled. The staffy should of known at that point to back off instead of going in for the kill.

I agree that the staffy's owner should of kept the staffy on a lead until they had sussed the park out and let him settle a little as opposed to just letting him off to charge off like that. Although by the sounds of things, of the nature of this staffy - it would of only taken one 'wrong' look from the husky to set him off anyways...

Glad to hear the husky is ok.

[JoeK]

Corvus, is surprising to me that you not wanting to learn about the aggression response for your behavior specialising, yes?

It's easy to assume that because I don't agree with you I am not privy to the information you are privy to, and if I seem reluctant to pay attention to what you're saying that I am not interested in learning what you know. It goes both ways, my friend.

what he did when the Husky growl is not abnormal aggression for a dog who carry those traits and hopefully now this Bully dog owner see what he done and keep him on a leash next time now see him do a mongrel on another dog hopefully yes.

What is "normal" for one individual is not necessarily what is "normal" behaviour at the population level. I have no idea what is normal for this dog and why, so all I can do is compare what happened to what I typically see happen in similar situations with different dogs, and what makes evolutionary sense. And that is all I've done. I maintain that the staffy's behaviour was not normal dog behaviour. Whether it was normal for a small subset of dogs or not is not relevant to the point I was making.

Aggression is very complex issue and much of the theory is basing on fear aggression which is the most common to see, but findings in the researching on fear aggression is different to other types of aggression, so I say for normal gauging what happens, you cant apply the fear aggression principal on the dog acting on social aggression or fighting drive because is different mindsetting on the dog if you looking for reasoning on the behavior.

My point is the Staffy behavior is normal if the dog carry the trait of social aggression is exactly what they do, but what is abnormal at the population level is seeing this behavior unfolding in the fight because not many people taking dogs like this for interacting with other dogs. Many dog behavior like this Staffy dog does is sometimes thinking dog having loose screws in his head or maybe having brain tumor on the diagnose of abnormal in the behavior something wrong with the dog, but if the dog carry the trait for doing this behavior, is nothing wrong with the dog is just this type of dog is not good for safe pet around the other dogs.

Joe

[Keira&Phoenix]

So Joe K should I be worried that my dog has a "weak nerve"? as you call it, because she growled at an over boisterous lab puppy who was jumping all over her yesterday (and whose owner was talking on the phone and not watching his dog). This was on lead at the Bark in the Park event. Does that make her weak nerved? I think not she was telling mister over boisterous, in her face, all over her puppy to back off, I did not reprimand her for it because it is normal behavior for her to tell him to back off, what would not have been normal is for the other dog to then go into full attack mode.

Sometimes I think people who are/think they are experts just want to make it a complex issue. This is not a complex issue, the staffy ran in and rudely ran into the Husky the Husky said back off with its growl and the Staffy went into full attack mode which was a completely over the top reaction in that situation, end of story. I hope the Staffy owners are found and made to pay the bill.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with Corvus. A dog that does not appreciate rudeness and warns another dog is not necesarily weak nerved, nor is it inappropriate for them to do so. The response of the other dog is not appropriate if the description given is accurate.

This is one of the reasons why i have to be careful with some of my dogs- they do not appreciate rude behaviour and will warn off appropriately if needed- i don't allow this to arise with strange dogs in an uncontrolled situation because the day the strange dog takes exception to being told off is the day i increase the risk of one of mine getting hurt.

[corvus]

Aggression is very complex issue and much of the theory is basing on fear aggression which is the most common to see, but findings in the researching on fear aggression is different to other types of aggression, so I say for normal gauging what happens, you cant apply the fear aggression principal on the dog acting on social aggression or fighting drive because is different mindsetting on the dog if you looking for reasoning on the behavior.

I wonder if you noticed that I wasn't attempting to explain the behaviour? I don't think I have enough information to do that. I don't think any of us do. And I don't think it matters. The topic asks whether the owner of the staffy mix should pay for the husky's vet bills. I don't think this is some sort of grey area depending on what kind of aggression was being displayed or what the individual personality of either of the dogs may or may not be. Your dog is your responsibility, and that means everything they do is your responsibility. Like K&P says, it is really quite simple.

My point is the Staffy behavior is normal if the dog carry the trait of social aggression is exactly what they do, but what is abnormal at the population level is seeing this behavior unfolding in the fight because not many people taking dogs like this for interacting with other dogs. Many dog behavior like this Staffy dog does is sometimes thinking dog having loose screws in his head or maybe having brain tumor on the diagnose of abnormal in the behavior something wrong with the dog, but if the dog carry the trait for doing this behavior, is nothing wrong with the dog is just this type of dog is not good for safe pet around the other dogs.

I think it's a stretch to label the dog as having a "social aggression" trait without knowing much about the dog. A lack of bite inhibition and a readiness to engage in a fight could be attributed to any number of personality elements or learning history. Aggression is, as you note yourself, a complex issue. But taking responsibility for your dog's aggressive behaviour is not.

[JoeK]

I agree with Corvus. A dog that does not appreciate rudeness and warns another dog is not necesarily weak nerved, nor is it inappropriate for them to do so. The response of the other dog is not appropriate if the description given is accurate.

This is one of the reasons why i have to be careful with some of my dogs- they do not appreciate rude behaviour and will warn off appropriately if needed- i don't allow this to arise with strange dogs in an uncontrolled situation because the day the strange dog takes exception to being told off is the day i increase the risk of one of mine getting hurt.

This Husky what he do on the attack is lay down and squeal, he submit with slow recovery tells us to begin with he has weak nerve soft dog, no question there. Next we have to asking ourselfs why the Husky dog growl for what reason make him growl? Of course the Husky didn't like the bumping from Bully dog, is not domimance reaction remembering he didnt fight back and he try to run away so he growl from fear is weak nerve soft dog. Hard nerve dog dont care if they getting bump and a very hard dog is placid and confident he wont get nasty about anything even if hes life is on the line taking very viscous attack on him to get reaction. Hard nerve dog can recover from bad experience easy, weak nerve dog cant.

This dogs who tell off other dogs with the growl begin this mosty from fear and when the jumping dog back off is learning behavior that growling on the bump reduces the fear and insecurity the dog feels, so that is how they deal with the situation. Rude behaviour scares the dog, thats why they react with the growl you see? Hard nerving on the dog dont care about rude behavior because rude behavior doesnt scare them is the point I am saying.