Feeding Issues

[best4koda]

Hi, I have been trying to solve my Shepherds diarhea issue for sometime. Summary is as follows:

• Initial case was stools slowly getting softer n softer. Was put down to food change. Changed to another food and got worse and produced soft stools with mucus as well.
  
• Vet visit, was apparently treated for giardia, antibiotic and a gut protectant. Presented at time with mild temp and they found some evidence of blood in a sample. Not tested for giardia.
  
• Seem to get better with meds and on chicken and rice diet.
  
• Slowly slid backwards after some time and back to normal diet. Kibble, fresh mince, beef or roo, mainly beef. Let her have a large beef bone. She consumed the lot, marrow included and ended up with full on diaahea. (Not good in hindsight)
  
• Vet visit to new vet recommended. Drugs prescribed for giardia noted as inefficient to treat giardia. Re-treated witha course of drontal and another drug for the stomach. after a few days she got slowly
  better. But not a 100% solid. Followed up with Vet and they suggested to test for EPI and/or try prescribed vet food for intestinal sensativity.

After seeing the price of test and food decided to try proplan sensative kibble. She is about 50/50 on that and the proplan chicken and rice. Nothing esle besides some boiled rice added. She had firmed up to a fairly normal level. I decided to see how she went with meat. I allowed her to have a small amount of rump off cuts...not fat. More then 24hrs later soft cow pats again. Today a bit better as a mix of both.Note, she is in perfect condition otherwise, coat and weight so I didn't think epi would be the issue or it's only minor not full on.

I suppose my question is, when or should you try one of the enzyme supplements like Protexin or thrive D. Or would a probiotic be worth a go. Is it more likely to be a food intolerance or an IBD issue. Is a grain free food worth trying?

It would be nice not to have to look at poo daily for an update. Sorry that this is another poo article but am frustrated with which way I should go.

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[persephone]

She may well be intolerant to the beef.....

If she was ok on chicken - then why not feed her chicken PET mince (because it has the much needed bone) or chicken carcasses/frames?Maybe with a small amount of sweet potato as well?

it would be nice not to have to look at poo daily for an update

I think most owners of dogs do this as a matter of course . I do

[best4koda]

Yes, I'm going to try chicken necks with her. But I will see if she firms up a bit better first then I will try some chicken necks, frames I think she will not chew well....busy eater here. will add a bit of sweet potato too. Does this help firm like pumpkin or is it simply good vits. I know pumpkin helps firm up but can make them thin I'm told?? I meant ENZYPLEX as Protexin is a probiotic.

Thanks. Would love more opinions as well.

[persephone]

I would not feed chicken necks to a shepherd they are too small - chicken frames are better- they can not easily be gulped .. they need to be crunched up first ;)

re the probiotics- I have very limited knoweledge of their use , so cannot help there ;)

She may not firm up if you continue beef/kibble ....

[best4koda]

Ok, noted on the chicken necks will feed frames. Just found Menai Lenard's sells the chicken frames minced so will pop over there today and grab some to try her on. Will pick up a frame to try her with too. Always been weary of chicken bones so have never fed them. Other sheps we have used bigger lamb and beef ones.

Thanks.

[Guest english.ivy]

Have you tried a lamb based diet for her?

I know my two get major runs on any raw chicken but can have raw beef bones every now and then. Though they do get sloppy poops, I just know why; they had a beef bone! I find it hard to buy lamb bones up this way and they need bones. But I do stick well clear of anything with marrow!

My Belgian was like this, runnys all the time until I took her off chicken.

Now she's on a mainly lamb based dry food [which does have some chicken fat in it but it isn't high up on the list of ingredients] and raw lamb [pet grade] meat.

Don't feed her chicken necks, they are far too small for a large breed dog. I know my Pointer wouldn't chew it, neither would my Belgian.

[best4koda]

I have been in the process of moving her to the proplan sensative kibble to take her off the usual protein sources and less grains. It's salmon based. She seemed to do alright at least for a little while just on boiled chicken and rice the first time. When I changed her food the previous times I went to artemis which was lamb and the second was Natural Balance which I think is lamb as well. Yep, will not feed necks.

Pers, yep do check the poo as a matter of course but it's an obsession at the moment trying to get her settled into a good food for her.

[Guest english.ivy]

I have been in the process of moving her to the proplan sensative kibble to take her off the usual protein sources and less grains. It's salmon based. She seemed to do alright at least for a little while just on boiled chicken and rice the first time. When I changed her food the previous times I went to artemis which was lamb and the second was Natural Balance which I think is lamb as well. Yep, will not feed necks.

Pers, yep do check the poo as a matter of course but it's an obsession at the moment trying to get her settled into a good food for her.

Check out Black Hawk this is what my two are on and it's Australian made.

I look at my dogs poo aswell but with four dogs, sometimes it can be hard to pick whos is whos If I see one of my two doing one, I'll let them finish, then go look. Even though since being on Black Hawk, they're been really good. My Pointer is still in that stage where the smallest thing can upset him tummy, he's 15 months old.

note: my Belgian gets runs from even sniffing dry food with wheat in it, but she is fine with the oats and rice in BH.

[best4koda]

Yeah, I've had a look at black hawke but havne't made a decision to try it yet since just starting proplan sensative. Which only has rice, oats and barley by the ingredients. If I can work out what the issue is then I can make a better choice on what to try I guess. I really don't like the wheat they are filling food with.

[Rebanne]

Don't feed her chicken necks, they are far too small for a large breed dog. I know my Pointer wouldn't chew it, neither would my Belgian.

might have to tell all my large breed dogs over the last 20 or more years how bad I was/am for feeding them chicken necks

[SarasMum]

My shepherd eats a chicken carcass every day and loves it. She also eats chicken necks, if you have a gulper then just put a leather glove on and hold on to it so it cant be inhaled.

My shep also has Nutro Chicken or Lamb and does quite well, however does get runny on lamb flaps or ribs.

[best4koda]

Lamb flaps etc were in the diet previously so are staying away from them for the time being...too fatty for her I think.

[sas]

There's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't try a digestive aid, from reading about digestion issues lately it seems that a lot of dogs actually have digestion issues and don't create enough of their own digestive enzymes.

I've just started one of mine of Thrive D and have seen results within a couple of days, when previously we were using a pro-biotic without any success.

With yout issues you might want to look into an Elimination diet if you think your dog has intolerances or allergic reactions to foods.

Edited May 14, 2011 by MEH

[sas]

Don't feed her chicken necks, they are far too small for a large breed dog. I know my Pointer wouldn't chew it, neither would my Belgian.

might have to tell all my large breed dogs over the last 20 or more years how bad I was/am for feeding them chicken necks

Ditto, our Great Danes have them.

The only time you'll want to be express caution is if you have a dog of any size that doesn't chew enough.

[best4koda]

There's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't try a digestive aid, from reading about digestion issues lately it seems that a lot of dogs actually have digestion issues and don't create enough of their own digestive enzymes.

Thanks for that, I was wondering if there was any reason not to add some to her diet to assist her. We are doing a form of an elimation diet at the moment. Only her kibble and rice. Through the week I added a small amount of rump steak off cut (not the fat) and she ended up cow pats and a little worse. Back to kibble and rice and firmed up better again. Last night I gave a small amount of chicken frame mince and are now waiting to see how she goes with that. So it appears beef maybe a no no for her, and perhaps the pigs hears were messing with her as well (previously in diet for chewing) and I think she has problem with fat as well.

I am going slow to see if we can work it out.

Hopefully I will hear from some more people about the enzymes and probiotics as well. I'm hoping if we can find the triggers and then slowly move her to a mix of fresh and a kibble that agrees with her. I prefer fresh food in her diet.

Thanks.

[coogie]

We use this probiotic:

Probiotic powder

(I was given some to try by another DOLer - thanks Ams). We have two Pei who are both prone to sensitive stomachs and we have tried most diets with varying degrees of success. They now eat two different super premiums,sardines,chicken mince,necks and frames. They also get eggs and natural youghurt plus Manuka honey and flaxseed oil from time to time. The probiotic seems palatable to them and we stick it directly on their food. It seems particularly good if they have had to have antibiotics as they pretty much always get the runs from these. We also give them steamed pumpkin if they are "runny" for more than a day or so.

[Lab_Rat]

We use this probiotic:

Probiotic powder

(I was given some to try by another DOLer - thanks Ams). We have two Pei who are both prone to sensitive stomachs and we have tried most diets with varying degrees of success. They now eat two different super premiums,sardines,chicken mince,necks and frames. They also get eggs and natural youghurt plus Manuka honey and flaxseed oil from time to time. The probiotic seems palatable to them and we stick it directly on their food. It seems particularly good if they have had to have antibiotics as they pretty much always get the runs from these. We also give them steamed pumpkin if they are "runny" for more than a day or so.

I also use this Probiotic for our Ridgy with great success!!

Our girl has issues with beef, roo, and chicken so is on a diet of lamb based kibble and lamb mince. She refuses bones - strange dog , and Im yet to find something longlasting and useful for her to chew on for her teeth...

She also has anxiety issues which can play havoc with her digestive system!!!! When she does have any dramas I will give her PAW for a couple of days which really helps her...She also has natural yogurt with her brekky, and I try to give them oily fish weekly.

I also have pumpkin in the freezer for when she gets the runs!

[best4koda]

I also use this Probiotic for our Ridgy with great success!!

Hi Lab Rat, did you find the probiotic took poos from soft to solid? Was that the issue you were having?

Also, it seems she is tolerating chicken frames minced, if you feed this each day can it make them constipated being it's got bone in it as well? Just wondering as I know bones can harden them up.

Has anyone else had success on Thrive D too?

[ish]

I think you should go ahead with the test for EPI - its something that your dog has the symptoms of and its relatively common in GSDs.

[Heidley]

I think you should test for EPI, please have a look at this site for more information- www.epi4dogs.com

Your dogs symptoms sound very familar to EPI and not all dogs with EPI have dramatic weight loss, you dog might have more of an SIBO problem and mild EPI but it needs to diagnosed first- TLI test as well as for Folate and Cobalamin which can indicate SIBO.

Hope your GSD gets better soon.