Barking/aggressing At Particular Dogs

[Cazwah]

Hey everyone!

I hope I can get some ideas to help.. I'm getting concerned because this behaviour is getting worse.

So, I have a miniature dachshund "Chestnut" who is a desexed male and is 1.5 yrs old. The problem we're having is that at training class on saturdays Chestnut has taken to barking and lunging at dogs that are ones that need space. What I mean is, the only dogs Chestnut tries to 'have a go' at are the ones who are standing back with owner and an instructor, dogs that need more space or they will bark/lunge at other dogs. Even from a distance (at a guess 30m) Chestnut will look at the dog and go crazy.. Chestnut is otherwise fine with the other dogs in the class. It is only the ones who have identified issues that he chooses to go off at. Weighing in at 6.5kg you can see my concern!

What bothers me is that today we were unable to participate in a lot of the class because he was so distracted by this one dog. And towards the end of the class, Chestnut was starting to bark at other dogs as well. Right at the end of the hour, and just as I had him relaxed and focussed, this dog and its owner came up behind us Chestnut flipped out again. So we left early! I hate leaving on a negative note!

Does anyone have any views on it, what might be the cause.. and what I can do to help the situation.. even advice on what I should do in the situation would be great =) I have had some success with a 'leave it' then 'watch me' at a distance from the dog... but mostly I just turn and walk Chestnut away.

Any ideas would be great, I am at a loss!

Thanks =)

Cazwah.

[persephone]

Hi - what a worry

if you give us an idea where you live - I am sure someone will recommend to you a professional who can come and help you privately .

This is what I would suggest - as, if the instructors at your classes, who can see what's happening, have not given you strategies yet - then you do need someone qualified to assess your dog and to help.

[Cazwah]

Hey, thanks, I had hoped it wasn't at that stage yet but you're probably right, and I don't want this to get any worse. I live in Brisbane, close to the city.

Thanks =)

[persephone]

I had hoped it wasn't at that stage yet

The earlier a problem of aggression is dealt with, the better .... no need to wait! ;)

[Kavik]

Since Chestnut mainly reacts to dogs with already identified space issues around other dogs, it sounds like he is sensitive to their body language. Dogs can tell if other dogs aren't comfortable around them and he is playing off the information he is getting from the other dogs. It would certainly be beneficial to get someone in who can see what he is doing and who can show you what to look for in your dog's body language and in the body language of other dogs so you can be prepared and develop a strategy for dealing with the reactive behaviour.

[Nekhbet]

sounds like a typical male dashchund actually. He needs his behaviour corrected, I've dealt with Daccies that do the same thing. I find correction, then redirect the dog to look at you instead. What do your obedience instructors say about it?

[Cazwah]

Thanks Kavik, that makes sense. I think I will have to get someone who knows what to look for to look at the situation and help us come up with a plan.

Nehkbet, thanks, Chestnut is definitely 100% dachy You know this morning because I left early I didn't get a chance to talk to any of the instructors, but I really would like to.. next week I'll go early and see what they say. Do you think I should use a correction when he is barking and then redirect his attention to me and ask him to do something else?

Thanks again for the help!

[Nekhbet]

as soon as he is beginning to focus on a dog and you know it's going to build, call him and walk backwards. Get him to follow and focus on you. If he does not listen then you correct and recommand. Don't stick him under dogs noses but at the same time he can learn. We have quite a few terriers that act this way at dog club, all pomp and show on lead.

Remember this is not about forcing him. Ultimately you want HIM to want to ignore the other dog and focus on you, not be forced into it. Some dogs just require that consequence to not listening due to the level they work on. You will find his general excitement will also decrease.

[Cazwah]

Thanks Nekhbet, that really helps. Yesterday on my walk I was able to redirect Chestnut's attention to me with a lot of success (the 'offending' dogs were behind fences, I think that helped, also this was Chestnut just wanting to bark back not so much overt aggression). I think you're right, I'll have to work on this gradually.. dogs at a distance first and then gradually get closer as he improves. I haven't been walking backwards when he begins to focus on another dog, so I will definitely try that. Do you think eventually he will offer to look at me when he sees another dog he doesn't like? Just curious!

Thanks again for all the advice, I am putting it into practice =)

[corvus]

Do you think eventually he will offer to look at me when he sees another dog he doesn't like? Just curious!

Lots of people have achieved this. It's just conditioning. ;) Consistency is the key. Don't forget to reward him when he does look at you instead. Using food could change his emotional state and make him feel more calm.

[Cazwah]

Thanks heaps Corvus! I've been using dried chicken to treat him for looking at me every time he looks at me. It's really useful actually for lots of other things in training! And I read an article on thebark.com recently about how food and pats will calm an afraid dog and not reinforce the nervous behaviour, so that was reassuring. Not that I am sure this is afraid behaviour.. but.. I'm sure a treat can't hurt?

[corvus]

Not that I am sure this is afraid behaviour.. but.. I'm sure a treat can't hurt?

Probably not! :D As long as you don't go rewarding behaviour you don't want. And you can't really reinforce an emotional state, so if he's scared, then giving him treats probably won't make him worse, same as when you're scared, getting a chocolate doesn't make you feel more scared. Most of the time aggressive behaviour stems from fear in one way or another. Sometimes it sure doesn't look like it, though, especially if you have a proactive little dog that has this "I'll get them before they can do something I won't like" attitude. They will look confident when they are acting aggressively, but if you put distance between them and the scary thing, all the anxious body language comes out. If you're ever in doubt, getting more distance between your dog and the thing he's barking at is a good first step. It can just take things down a few notches and give you both a chance to think and take things more slowly.

[toughgirl27]

Don't give him treats when he is showing fear or aggression. Only give him treats to reward the right behaviour.

Or you will be reinforcing his fear or aggression. In his mind getting the treat is a reward for doing the right thing, if you

reward him he will continue to do what he was doing to get a reward.

So no never give him treats for unwanted behaviours.

[corvus]

This is a myth, toughgirl27. Maybe Cazwah can post the link to the article on thebark.com.

We reinforce behaviour, NOT emotional states. Emotional states drive behaviour. Feeding a dog in a negative emotional state absolutely can create a positive association towards the thing that previously made the dog fearful or aggressive. Once their emotional response to that trigger is changed to a positive one, we usually find that the undesirable fearful or aggressive behaviour vanishes. This is called counter-conditioning.

More information here: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/thunder-phobia-in-dogs

[Nekhbet]

you can actually reinforce an emotional level. Look at bitework... give one word and suddenly the dog can be on a whoooooole new plane. Sometimes a dog needs to go from asleep to on guard in a split second command. Dogs are not automatons.

I believe you do not add to a stressed dog. You reward the dog to behave at the level you want it at. If your dog is sitting whinging, fidgeting, carrying on what do you think you are rewarding? If you settle the dog, redirect focus and reward when the dog is dedicating attention to you, dont you think you will make your job easier since there is a greater parameter on receiving that reward?

I do not reward a dog in a fearful or severely reactive state when it comes to behaviour. Its not behaving to the standard I want and hence no reward - I will guide it an interact for sure but there is no clear reward until it settles down. A current dog I am working with is really wound up, shaking, scanning, erratic. I show him a potential reward and not until he settles does he get it. The dog comes leaps and bounds quickly and remains relaxed around the stimulus that was previously driving him to dispair.

Your dog is not afraid (of that I am quite sure), there are massive signs to it. Very big difference between reactivity towards a stimulus due to breed factors and fear reactions, paticularly due as well to the fact he's so picky choosy at dog club to his targets. I can tell you a dog in full fear will just try and make ALL dogs rack off as quickly as possible.

Reward him for listening, at least give him a 'oh GOOD DOG!' every time he looks at you if you do not have a treat handy. COnditioning it at this age will drive the dog to chose you over the stimuli that previously got him barking last time.

[Cazwah]

Wow I've created so much discussion, this is great!

http://www.thebark.com/content/reducing-fear-your-dog

That's the article I was referring to before about whether treats are rewarding emotion or behaviour..

I have a few more questions if that's okay.. first, Nekhbet, what do you mean by 'correct and reprimand' if he doesn't give me his attention when I first ask him? To be honest I've never used reprimands in training.. I've used witholding of treats/toys, but never a physical punishment and I'm not keen to- would you recommend a verbal reprimand? If I had to?

What you said about not rewarding while my dog is still acting aggressive does make sense, I think it would be important to first get his attention, then move him away from the offending dog, then when he is calm reward. Is that about right?

And Corvus, what you say makes perfect sense too! Just to clarify though.. it's okay to treat Chestnut if he is scared of something, so say if I can see he is on edge, or shivering or something, that is okay to then give him a treat, but what I should avoid treating is a behaviour I do not want, for example, snarling? or barking? Is that the difference?

Thanks heaps guys!

[corvus]

And Corvus, what you say makes perfect sense too! Just to clarify though.. it's okay to treat Chestnut if he is scared of something, so say if I can see he is on edge, or shivering or something, that is okay to then give him a treat, but what I should avoid treating is a behaviour I do not want, for example, snarling? or barking? Is that the difference?

Dr Sophia Yin has a video that shows her 'rewarding' snarling, and how the dog soon stops snarling because his emotional response has changed:

Personally, I'm careful what behaviours I reward when my dogs are under threshold. I reward disengaging from the object of their focus and looking at me. I don't reward things like snarls because if my dogs have got that far they are over threshold and I'm just concerned with getting them to calm down. It's kind of a complicated subject, but I think an easy rule of thumb is that you can't reinforce negative emotional states with food. If a behaviour is driven by a negative emotional state, then 'rewarding' it with food is not going to increase the occurrence of that emotional state. Food comes with its own positive emotional state, which is antagonistic to many things, including fear and play. Bite work isn't usually reinforced with food for a reason.

Edited May 17, 2011 by corvus

[Nekhbet]

your dog can be on a flat collar, all he needs is a few little sharp tugs on the lead in order to redirect his attention. COnversely the Cesar Milan poke to the neck with your finger can work too. A check chain on a small dashchund is not the way to go, but a physical touch is not going to emotionally scar him at all - considering this is a breed bred to drag badgers out of holes they're not made of cotton wool. The trick is to make them short and sharp to prevent an opposition response, I call it a 'reverse poke'. When he arcs up, command him to follow you, if he does not then provide him with sharp tugs with the leash until he follows you and redirects his attention. I use the same method on puppies if they dont want to walk on a lead and it works quickly.

The reason I dont like verbal reprimands is that really, they dont get too far in getting you to your ultimate goal. You want the dog to look at you, yet you growl at him... rather counterproductive. Now remember a verbal reprimand is different from something like a non reward marker or a command to stand down (eg LEAVE IT) which work on the dog by making it exhibiting a conditioned response to your vocalisation. I dont let my clients 'ARRGGHH STOP IT' and get upset at their dogs when they're misbehaving on the lead - why? You have a lead attached to the dog which in itself is a tool to help you. The only thing to come out of your mouth is markers (is you dont use a clicker, then YES) properly conditioned commands and verbal praise.

I think it would be important to first get his attention, then move him away from the offending dog, then when he is calm reward. Is that about right?

totally correct. Remember distance as well is a big factor in this. You dont want to be marching him for miles, just enough that he turns to face you which is usually a few steps or simply turning him 180 degrees. You dont want to teach the dog the more he carries on the further you take him away (because he probably is wanting the dog to go away) and it is in that way people make critical distances bigger. You will also not always have the option of walking away from another dog in real life so he has to learn that no, that other dog will not suddenly become miles away but my handler has showed me a really awesome, rewarding way of dealing with my stress of dog over there.

ETA I reeeeeeeally dont like that video and I would not trust that dog just trained in that manner. Apply some stress, take away the food and prove to me it's counterconditioned.

And food isnt always the ultimate reward for a dog in comparison. It also doesnt always create a positive state of mind, I have had to remove food from situations because the dogs were going ballistic.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Steve K9Pro]

Hey everyone!

I hope I can get some ideas to help.. I'm getting concerned because this behaviour is getting worse.

So, I have a miniature dachshund "Chestnut" who is a desexed male and is 1.5 yrs old. The problem we're having is that at training class on saturdays Chestnut has taken to barking and lunging at dogs that are ones that need space. What I mean is, the only dogs Chestnut tries to 'have a go' at are the ones who are standing back with owner and an instructor, dogs that need more space or they will bark/lunge at other dogs. Even from a distance (at a guess 30m) Chestnut will look at the dog and go crazy.. Chestnut is otherwise fine with the other dogs in the class. It is only the ones who have identified issues that he chooses to go off at. Weighing in at 6.5kg you can see my concern!

What bothers me is that today we were unable to participate in a lot of the class because he was so distracted by this one dog. And towards the end of the class, Chestnut was starting to bark at other dogs as well. Right at the end of the hour, and just as I had him relaxed and focussed, this dog and its owner came up behind us Chestnut flipped out again. So we left early! I hate leaving on a negative note!

Does anyone have any views on it, what might be the cause.. and what I can do to help the situation.. even advice on what I should do in the situation would be great =) I have had some success with a 'leave it' then 'watch me' at a distance from the dog... but mostly I just turn and walk Chestnut away.

Any ideas would be great, I am at a loss!

Thanks =)

Cazwah.

K9: As some have suggested, get some one on one help with a Trainer or Behaviourist that is experienced in dealing with aggression. Once you have some improvement go back to your club and work without aggression.

Some people seem to suggest taking the DIY approach with book in hand, I think this is one way you may work on toilet training, teaching your dog to sit or something similar, but I think it is an insane way of working with aggression at any level.

No book will teach you how to recognize what state of mind your dog is in, and for those who believe that emotional states cannot be reinforced, spend some time around dogs, they live on learning through emotional reinforcement. Having that said I don't think if your dog is "going crazy" as you put it and you offer a food treat you will make it any worse, but I guarantee you that you will make it no better either.

I do guarantee though that your dog is practicing this behavior and this will make it worse.

Without control of your dogs emotions you could easily buy yourself a lot of trouble, I assessed a dog for a dangerous dog declaration last week that was in training and the owner was trying to work with aggression using passers by as decoys.

Obviously someone didn't appreciate being a decoy and reported her, the dog was served a Notice of Intent which I am helping her fight.

Was she getting anywhere with the rehab? no, but she bought herself more trouble for her efforts.

Get help.

[Nekhbet]

I assessed a dog for a dangerous dog declaration last week that was in training and the owner was trying to work with aggression using passers by as decoys.

oh jeezus