This Might Annoy People

[tdierikx]

Souff has a point there... my Lab girl is of the smaller more compact style... and she is a nut! She really wouldn't eat a child, but she's certainly not a dog I'd leave unsupervised with one - she plays way too rough and there would definitely be tears. My brother's Lab is of the older larger style, and he's totally bombproof - but it's taken a hell of a lot of training to keep him that way (he's a disability assistance dog).

My Rotti/Pittie girl is MUCH more stable when it comes to the idiotic things kids can do to rile up a dog.

T.

[Robbi]

I had a Kelpie,a Cocker Spaniel and a Greyhound x when my son was born, the Greyhound x was never too worried about the new arrival and just let him slip into the pack, the Cocker was delighted by the smelly, milky little person who shed food and slobber everywhere he went but Jess my Kelpie spent the whole time ignoring him and in the ten years they shared their lives together I dont think she ever truly acknowledged that the kid was going to be permanently with us

[Little Gifts]

We always had dogs, cats, rabbits, kangaroos, possums, horses (including clydesdales), donkeys, goats and birds (like cockatoos)as kids and was left unsupervised with all of them. Lots of them were free to even be in the house. We had even more dangerous animals in cages that we were left unsupervised around (and could've lost a finger). If we got hurt then it was considered our own fault for bothering the animal. When I was only a toddler I used to like to sit on the back step and eat my toast each morning. Our dog would invariably steal it off me and I would cry. Apparently one day I bit the dog in retaliation for the theft and mum came out to find us both sitting on the back step crying.

But fast forward to today and I know if I had kids I would never leave them alone with any animal until they were old enough to know how to be around them safely, as much for the animals as for the kids.

So for me it is funny how the times change and I would not do what my parents did.

[JoeK]

Dogs to be good around the kids needing solid nerve is most important and is the weak nerve and resource guarding trait causing most danger for the kids.Joe

Finally I have something to agree with you about!

The problem is that many people - and I see this advertised on some rescues a bit - think the quiet, more shy dog is the best choice for a family and think they're more gentle. I have one happy, go-lucky dog and a shy, very nervous dog who was abused. People are always trying to pat and interact with the basket case!

I think the level of paranoia is an issue these days, but also the temp of dogs today is an issue. When I was a kid, dogs that didn't have solid nerves went to heaven. Full stop. Even on this forum, when a DOLer was at a cross-roads about PTS a dog with aggression issues that she had tried to sort out for years(DA, but impacting her family life significantly) there were still people saying how bad it would be to PTS the dog. My sister has a chi that has bitten and attacked many people. She has sought help and the problem is still bad. Yet various family members and friends are horrified that she'd consider PTS, even though this dog bites while supervised and has bitten her toddler on the face!

We also need to remember that not that long ago, we didn't have the interwebs so if a kid was mauled the town over, we might never hear of it.

When my daughter is little girl, my wife she have retired service dog hes 9 year old Shepherd Dog beautiful temperament and the hard nerve. We talking attack trained dog playing with the little girl and hes temperament is so hard in the nerve he dont care about anything. My daughter she could ride in his back, pull is ears and his tail put her hand in his mouth, use him for pillow and the worse he done is lick her all over. Is my point here even dog with attack training biting and fighting many people in his job is not danger on the kid because of his solid nerve and is not scared of anything for need to defend. He know the little girl is no threat to him and he having high pain thresholding so this type of temperament on the dog making the greatest of the pet with kids. This dog Bozzi his name, my wife use him for therapy dog for old people home is the best temperament dog we had ever, but they not making as good as him much these days.

Joe

Edited May 14, 2011 by JoeK

[sandgrubber]

I'm 62. I have a tiny scar under one of my eyes from an unsupervised encounter with an Irish Setter when I was four years old. My father was a doctor doing a house call. I got brought along. I ended out with the dog while everyone else was attending a sick family member. I was probably being an ass and pulling on the pretty long red hairs and the dog was jumpy (not 'solid nerve'). I got bitten and needed a few stitches. BFD. I wish people could put such incidents in the 'shit happens' category. On the other hand, a dog killing a kid is MUCH MUCH MUCH more serious. I worry that the 'solid nerve' types may exceed some tolerance level and solid nerve becomes 'solid attack'. Does it work this way? Are some dogs (breed a good but imperfect prediction) jumpy and prone to nipping, but unlikely to be lethal, while some other dogs may be stable . . . but pushed too far, lethal?

Dogs to be good around the kids needing solid nerve is most important and is the weak nerve and resource guarding trait causing most danger for the kids. I having much more confidence with hard nerve German Shepherd Dog or Rottwieler playing with family kids than resource guarding Golden Retriever or any dog with weak nerve that can get snappy if you tread on his tail or touch him if he sleeping. Hard nerve dog with the family for my opinion is always best choice, maybe not good with strange kids, but with is own kids hard dog is usually beautiful.

Joe

[Aidan3]

I worry that the 'solid nerve' types may exceed some tolerance level and solid nerve becomes 'solid attack'. Does it work this way?

There is a lot of data describing how many children get bitten, where it happens, where they get bitten, age, relationship with dog etc but not a lot of data describing the personalities of the dogs involved (breed at most). My observations of dogs with what some describe as "solid nerve" is that they tend to have better impulse control and are better at regulating their own behaviour, so I would have fewer concerns about a bomb-proof dog 1. biting in the first place or 2. mounting a more serious attack.

My GSD does not have solid nerve but she is remarkable with children. It's difficult to make any sort of generalisation with temperament, with dogs being a collection of traits (that might be conflicting in different domains) and a product of nature and nurture.

My biggest concern is with dogs who have been punished for showing signs of fear, uncertainty or aggression; such as growling, barking, lunging, excitability or attempting to escape. All dogs will naturally make every attempt to avoid an actual bite or physical confrontation, but we so often interpret these attempts as aggression in itself and try to "correct" them.

But oh well, I suppose dogs "must" have a consequence for growling or barking... isn't that what they tell us?

[mita]

There is a lot of data describing how many children get bitten, where it happens, where they get bitten, age, relationship with dog etc but not a lot of data describing the personalities of the dogs involved (breed at most).

There's some research about the personalities & adjustment of owners of dogs that are involved with serious attacks.

Those owners are characterised, among other things, by tending to have more than average traffic violations. There's also a higher incidence of not complying with law, generally. In other words, the owners tend to have poor impulse control and consideration of consequences.

There were also findings re the traits of owners of dogs which were classified as aggressive.

Edited May 15, 2011 by mita

[Aidan3]

There's some research about the personalities & adjustment of owners of dogs that are involved with serious attacks.

Those owners' are characterised, among other things, by tending to have more than average traffic violations. There's also a higher incidence of not complying with law, generally. In other words, the owners tend to have poor impulse control and consideration of consequences.

There were also findings re the traits of owners of dogs which were classified as aggressive.

If you have any references filed away somewhere handy, I'd love to see them

[mita]

There's some research about the personalities & adjustment of owners of dogs that are involved with serious attacks.

Those owners' are characterised, among other things, by tending to have more than average traffic violations. There's also a higher incidence of not complying with law, generally. In other words, the owners tend to have poor impulse control and consideration of consequences.

There were also findings re the traits of owners of dogs which were classified as aggressive.

If you have any references filed away somewhere handy, I'd love to see them

I've mentioned them in the past on DOL. Had significance when we were discussing banning dog breeds.

Both were US based, one listed along with articles about aggression on Duke (?) University Vet School website.

I guess not entirely surprising given that we know that socialisation of both humans & dogs is relational. Now...to remember sources!

[Leelaa17]

My friend and I have been debating about dogs and doggie things.

One thing she was saying to me is that she would NEVER have dogs around kids - no kind of dog at all...

Now with Max and Jenna, I wouldn't even hesitate, I know what they're like around kids. Of course I would NEVER leave them unattended... but I wouldn't have a problem with my kids being around dogs... I would actually WANT my kids to be around dogs so they can learn how to treat them and behave around them...

Also, she was saying that she would want a labrador because they have a much gentler and calmer temperament than other breeds... this got us into a debate with deed not breed stuff... She didn't actually say it but I felt like she was saying that other types of breeds (such a GSDs) would be more likely to turn...

I don't know how to feel about this... what do you guys think about what she was saying?

Nah, your friend has got it all back to front. KIDS should not be around dogs.

We need some KSL around here, kid specific legislation, to protect dogs from some of the little beasties.

Souff had a cat once that never liked a visiting child. Cat used to bolt up to the top of the hot water tank and hiss at this child. Kid grew up to be an unsavoury adult. Animals know.

Oh, and if your friend believes that all Labs are gentle souls, tell her to talk to some of the vets and vet nurses.

They have very mixed opinions about today's Labs. Poor Labs, seems that the old gentle giants that used to romp with the kids on the lawn became unfashionable some years back and they just had to be bred smaller. Give me the old gentle giants any day.

Souff

It's so funny that you say that. Max is alright with people. Some people he will go straight up to without hesitation... some he will be a little cautious and then sniff, and others he wont go near and will bark at them...

there was a few young guys that came over to our house for one of the girls that used to live with us, max was going ballistic, I brought him out on a lead so he could meet them and calm down but he ended up trying to go for one of them, which is extremely unlike him - never done it before that and has never done it since - ever since then I have learnt to trust his instincts...

On another note, when max got attacked by two dogs at the dog park, when we first went in he wouldnt go near them, another unusual thing - he always go up to other dogs and says hello, whereas these ones he gave a VERY wide birth... after a while, he got attacked by them - again, since that incident, I now know that I need to trust his instincts with people AND dogs!

Edited May 15, 2011 by Leelaa17

[moosmum]

Had to laugh when "Replying to this might annoy people" came up.

I love the mix of dogs and kids we have always had with out incident,up to 3 dogs and 3 kids.The dogs have mostly been Dobermanns with a terrier X thrown in.

They have always been best of mates and looked out for each other.

We taught the kids how to behave with the dogs,the dogs how to behave with kids with mutual repect.

There are many baby pics taken with a dog there keeping an eye on things,or toddler pulling the dobermann after them by the collar with kittens nearby.

When the kids left home they took their dogs.

Some visiting kids would need a very close eye on them.(Shudders at the memories)

[frenzied1]

You could tell her that for a very long time Pitbulls were known as the nanny dog and for a very good reason

the nanny dog

I LOVED the pictures, how beautiful

As a 3 year old my mum got me a lab x and she was my best mate for many many years, i pulled her tail and put sand in her eyes and she let me do it without ever bring grumpy or aggressive she just loved me so much

Sorry if my 3 year old did that to one of my dogs, I would not let them near the dog again. I think it is disgusting you were allowed to do it and I wouldn't have blamed the dog if theyt had bitten you.

Anyway I grew up with a toy poodle that bit me every week for 14 years, partly because my Mum is terrible at training her dogs, she loves them and cares for them but they are often not obedient etc. Anyway partly Mum's fault and partly mine, the poodle was just a product of the household she grew up in. I also nearly had my face bitten by a Lab. My point is that dogs are a product of the household they grow up in. You can put one dog in 10 different households and see 10 different behaviours.

I am very comfortable with my kids being around my dogs but I am not so keen on other peoples kids being around them simply because I have no idea what rules and ways they have been taught.

[OSoSwift]

But oh well, I suppose dogs "must" have a consequence for growling or barking... isn't that what they tell us?

My then two year old had my eyes taken of him for literaly seconds and I heard a growl - we hadn't had Lewis long - I was shocked and spun around to see the then 2 yo laying flat on poor Lewis. The only consequence in our house was the child got a smack to try and instil really quickly there is no laying on any animal.

He was trying to him him a big love as he loved him, but he had been warned in the past and got into a situation that could have got him bitten. The interesting thing was he was near the dog for some time before that and had been doing as he was supposed to it, it was when my eyes were taken off him by a boiling over pot that he moved in for the mug.

I was very pleased with Lewis as he hadn't moved but given a definate warning for something that was not acceptable and was hurting him.

He didn't do it again, so yes consequences in this house - for the child that is mugging the dog!

[OSoSwift]

But oh well, I suppose dogs "must" have a consequence for growling or barking... isn't that what they tell us?

My then two year old had my eyes taken of him for literaly seconds and I heard a growl - we hadn't had Lewis long - I was shocked and spun around to see the then 2 yo laying flat on poor Lewis. The only consequence in our house was the child got a smack to try and instill really quickly there is no laying on any animal.

He was trying to him a big love as he loved him, but he had been warned in the past and got into a situation that could have got him bitten. The interesting thing was he was near the dog for some time before that and had been doing as he was supposed to it, it was when my eyes were taken off him by a boiling over pot that he moved in for the mug.

I was very pleased with Lewis as he hadn't moved but given a definate warning for something that was not acceptable and was hurting him.

He didn't do it again, so yes consequences in this house - for the child that is mugging the dog!

[sandgrubber]

I'm reminded of a sad story a local vet told me. Mum brings the family Lab in to be PTS because it bit one of the kids. After the green dream was administered they discovered that the poor dog had a couple of sewing needles literally put through her ears. Mum says OMG, should have done the kids rather than the dog.

It isn't breed specific . . . but has some breed tendencies. Some dogs will happily take a lot of what the kids think is funny and are natural tolerant guardians, like Wendy in Peter Pan. I don't think minute by minute supervision is always needed with such dogs, except with little babies. I remember when I was about nine and suffered some little tragedy, going out to the fort us kids out behind the house with the dog and crying my eyes out. The dog was wonderfully sympathetic, much better than a person. I don't like to see 'supervision' make it so that kids can't build this sort of bond with dogs. But kids need to develop respect for animals, and parents need to develop guidelines and keep their feelers out for problems that may be developing. Putting an inadequately socialized dog together with inadequately socialized kids is a disaster waiting to happen. And it happens all the time.

Edited May 16, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Henrietta]

Growing up we were taught how to act around our dogs. We were respectful and gentle and interactions were fun. I don't remember ever being worried about the dogs or feeling I was wrapped in cotton wool, but there were clear rules and boundaries. There was never an incident. I think what is telling is that the dogs were a big part of our life and family. Not just dogs that were out in the yard 24/7 and barely noticed. We helped with their exercise and care - whatever was age appropriate. We had a bond with them and them with us.

Dogs were feed away from young children and as soon as we were old enough, we helped to feed the dogs. Back in the day, I remember the daily heartworm tablet (Dimmitrol??) Dad would give the tablet and I would ask for a sit and put the bowl down, repeat for the next dog in another room then we would leave them in peace to eat. Never would we have been out in the yard whilst the dogs were enjoying a bone.

I grew up with these two dogs. One died when I was 14, the other when I was 16. Lovely, lovely family pets.