Now This Takes The Cake!

[Steve]

Basic economics - supply and demand.If they couldnt get the prices they are are asking the price wouldn't be so high.

The public see these are more expensive and so believe they are better. Perhaps breeders who expect that everyone looking for a staffy will know the difference between one and the other should raise their prices way over what they are asking to demonstrate their product is superior to these.

If these ones are so inferior and the breeders are so ignorant then surely breeders who have superior pups and who are well educated can bring higher prices. Why not give it a go?

[jackie_a1]

Steve if I was to buy a puppy I would research. Price does not necessarily mean quality. Price is stipulated by breeder and economy a combination of both. Just because something is expensive does not mean it is superior and people should be aware of that. Most people who buy from these backyard breeders already think the combination of coat colour (blue etc) and the addition of price make the animal quality, when in reality we know it is far from. If registered breeders inflate their puppy prices merely to combat the fact that bybers have expensive pups I would find those particular breeders morally and ethically corrupt. The difference between a registered and respected breeder is they breed for temperament, soundness, quality etc. Back yard breeders breed for mainly for money.

[Steve]

Steve if I was to buy a puppy I would research. Price does not necessarily mean quality. Price is stipulated by breeder and economy a combination of both. Just because something is expensive does not mean it is superior and people should be aware of that. Most people who buy from these backyard breeders already think the combination of coat colour (blue etc) and the addition of price make the animal quality, when in reality we know it is far from. If registered breeders inflate their puppy prices merely to combat the fact that bybers have expensive pups I would find those particular breeders morally and ethically corrupt. The difference between a registered and respected breeder is they breed for temperament, soundness, quality etc. Back yard breeders breed for mainly for money.

Yes thats right If I was going to buy a puppy I would research too. I know what will and will not suit my lifestyle and why some breeds wouldnt be very happy at my house, what I need to watch out for etc but the reality is that lots and lots of people dont . They judge quality on price - you get what you pay for blah blah blah .

Im sorry I dont for the life of me understand why it is morally and ethically corrupt to raise the price to better demonstrate the value of the dog and to sell the pup for the best price you can get. If you can get more money for your puppies even though it wasnt your primary goal and you havent compromised on anything you do why on earth shouldnt you take what you can get to enable you to put more back into what you are doing.

Most times we loose money and breeding to make money even if you believe you can do that without compromising is a high risk activity and Im certainly not advocating for any one to do that I dont get why if one breeder is supply a better product and better service the price shouldnt be able to demonstarte that if you can get it.

I spoke with someone yesterday who I would consider to be the best lab breeder in this country and she charges $1400 for a lab pup then I spoke again with someone who had rung asking advice on a lab puppy they were buying for over 2000 dollars from someone who wouldnt get into the MDBA [i didnt tell the buyer that] The buyer believed that even though she had done all of her research and knew about the breed and the health issues etc that paying more meant a better more superior breeder and a better chance at getting a good pup.

Ive spoken with people who got ripped of by the bulldog breeder who were paying 4000 plus for pups which didnt exist who put up with the most stupid stuff because there was so much mney they didnt believe it was anything other than what they were being told it was - why else would someone charge that kind of money? Ive spoken with some who have become worried about a breeder who pulls 4000 for puppies which other breeders in that breed are charging half for. how anyone could get sucked in by that one is beyond me because there are warning belles all over the place. Ive seen beagle pups in a pet shop go for double what mine do and they run out the door. There are only 4 and a half thousand registered breeders in this country and 70% of us only breed one litter per year.Australia wide we only bred 8 and a half thousand litters and non registered breeders bred 35,000 litters. The demand is there but not enough supply and the sooner we work that out and charge prices which are more in line with what we are worth the sooner the public will see we are worth more too.

Supply and demand - and if these breeders can pull this much for those pups when they have more competition for sales in that breed than any other its time we all considered its more productive for us and the breed if we say if there's are worth that ours are worth more. Throwing money away isnt a pre requisite of a good breeder. If you can get it take it and you wont know if you can get it if you dont ask for it. Its only un ethical and imoral if your first goal is to make money and you are prepared to compromise to get more profit.

[Paptacular!]

Steve, you raised this point:

Im sorry I dont for the life of me understand why it is morally and ethically corrupt to raise the price to better demonstrate the value of the dog and to sell the pup for the best price you can get. If you can get more money for your puppies even though it wasnt your primary goal and you havent compromised on anything you do why on earth shouldnt you take what you can get to enable you to put more back into what you are doing.

Part of what I see is wrong with the inflated prices (especially blue staffies) is that the average moron thinks, "Wow, I've forked out a lot for this dog. I should breed a litter to re-coup my costs and make a bucketload more!"

This is what sets off the cycle of below average, outside of standard dogs with multiple health issues, because all they care about is making their money back, plus some, with no regard for health testing and procedures! You of all people I thought would have been able to spot that.

[ruthless]

I don't understand why the pounds aren't flooded with blue SBTs. Is it because people are paying so much for them they actually value them and don't dump them?

[redangel]

Boot polish on nose = brushing up a poodle coat???? Strange comparision.

Unfortunately price generally can pushed up by Joe public demand (informed or ill informed) But has this breeder done this? Is the price because of them being "blue" or does the breeder demand this pricing for all their pups? Maybe this should be clarified. Some up and coming popular breeds are selling for $2k plus that are not blue. eg...check out the papers for French Bulldog litters (not necessarily show quality)

edit: clarify

Edited May 14, 2011 by redangel

[Maddy]

Boot polish on nose = brushing up a poodle coat???? Strange comparision.

Erm, I can only assume you missed my point. Brushing up a poodle- preparing it for a show. Boot polish on nose- preparing it for a show.

Humour is clearly lost on some people.

[Dogsrawesome]

i remember a few years back it used to be pugs going in the $2000 mark in the newspapers and the Internet. Maybe its the same with the blue staffords well staffords in general are popping up everywhere. I love the breed but kind of annoying that everyone one is owning one or breeding them or maybe both.

[Steve]

Steve, you raised this point:

Im sorry I dont for the life of me understand why it is morally and ethically corrupt to raise the price to better demonstrate the value of the dog and to sell the pup for the best price you can get. If you can get more money for your puppies even though it wasnt your primary goal and you havent compromised on anything you do why on earth shouldnt you take what you can get to enable you to put more back into what you are doing.

Part of what I see is wrong with the inflated prices (especially blue staffies) is that the average moron thinks, "Wow, I've forked out a lot for this dog. I should breed a litter to re-coup my costs and make a bucketload more!"

This is what sets off the cycle of below average, outside of standard dogs with multiple health issues, because all they care about is making their money back, plus some, with no regard for health testing and procedures! You of all people I thought would have been able to spot that.

Of course I can spot that but what makes them more deserving of getting better prices than someone who is doing it all better ? Why should we behave as if we are the ones less able to ask a price for a dog and perpetuate the whole thing even more.

Why am I held to be responsible for all the woes of the dog world and have to go without in order to try to prevent something I cant prevent. All I can be responsible for is what comes out of my yard and if I feel my service and my product is superior to another then Im entitled to charge accordingly. How else do I demonstrate that it is a superior product and that my service is superior ? Try telling people that the reason you keep your prices down is so other people wont think they can make money out of breeding dogs and see how many believe you. it gives the mpression you have so many you have to lower your price or you have a lesser quality product.

If Im doing it all right then why do you want me to be answerable for those who are not? If I keep my prices down will this stop people from wanting to breed dogs for money as their primary goal ? if I take less than I can get I have less to put back into my dogs - how does me making a moral stand and refusing to charge realistic prices help the pure bred dog world rather than hinder it?

For almost 38 years Ive been breeding dogs and Ive kept my prices pretty low - that didnt stop people deciding they can make money out of it and cross bred mongrels in pet shops bringing in double what I charged.

I kept my prices down and watched while breeders of purebred dogs are treated as if we are some kind of crimminals while people who were breeding for profit were cheered in for their healthier dogs! I cant for the life of me see how me keeping my prices under some idiot is going to stop anyone from seeing what they are doing and do it anyway.

I cant think of one other thing available by being able to buy it where if you pay less its a sign of superiority so you can hardly expect anyone to see that when you offer something at half the price that you are offering something which is valued more than the more expensive one. It goes against everything we know in our society. There are consequences for everything - if you sell them for less than you can get you make the public see you have an inferior product and even you think you should keep the price down because they arent worth any more - if you sell them for more then you make some idiots think they can do it for nothing more than money.

We have bought into this crap hook line and sinker and while we go without in the name of not setting a bad example the bad examples snicker all the way to the bank.

No matter what I charge for my dogs Im not now or ever going to take the wrap for people seeing breeding dogs as a way of making a profit because the gardener did that way before blue staffys became popular.

[BJean]

[ENGLISH STAFFY - Represents an uneducated, back yard breeder and or uneducated owner. PERIOD. A proper breeder, and or advocate of the breed will tell you it is. Staffy. Stafford, or Stafford bull terrier etc. There is NO NEED to add english staffy PURELY because if you knew the slightest thing about dogs you are able to differentiate between stafford and american stafford PERIOD. It is inappropriate to call it an english staffy. All that is, is making it lemans terms for something that is already simplified. If you cannot differentiate between an am staff and a stafford then your obviously have faeces in your eyes.When I see english staffy advertised selling anything I steer clear because I know it's not a trusted, educated, registered breeder.

I love all the pompous assumtpion in this post, it's great

Some breeders use a common term for their breed, so they can reach out to homes who may only know their breed by the common term.

I like to think I have half an idea about a few things dog, and I call English Staffys and American Staffys by their full inappropriate name.

I also refer to my breeds by different names depending on who I am talking to.

As an advocate and sporadic advertiser for my breeds, outsiders will determine whether I'm a "trusted, educated, registered breeder" - not by the breed name I use - but by the knowledge and enthusiasm I share.

Edited May 14, 2011 by lilli

[shortstep]

Just search English Staffie on google, 129,000 hits, LOL.

What we do know is that any person contacting an "ethical and "responsible" ANKC breeder, asking for an English Staffie in blue will certainly not be getting a puppy.

Because what we also know is that 'ethical (or has it changed now to 'responsible ) ANKC breeders would not have any blue saffies to sell, well unless they were an unfortunate accident of unknown recessive genes. As Blue staffies cannot be shown due to a standard that reflects a total lack of colour genetic understanding. Instead of admitting that and setting the it right, they just make a big deal out of anyone breeding or wanting a blue staffie with a god forbid blue nose. So 'ethical 'responsible ANKC breeders have driven up the price of blue staffies by making them appear as rare. LOL

And what we also know is that the public still wants a Staffy (spelt Staffy wrong to show my ignorance of the breeds proper ANKC ethical breeder acceptable slang name spelling, which also exposes my lack of research on the breeds slang names and thereby demonstrates that I am not worthy of owning any dog) in blue, and they don't care about 'ethical' breeders peer pressure, proper use of slang names, nor entering the show ring with their pet, that these folks are best not to turn to ANKC 'ethical and responsible breeder' to buy their dog.

And we wonder why purebred breeders and their breeds are in real trouble.

It really does take the cake.

Edited May 14, 2011 by shortstep

[tdierikx]

Let's face it, blue Staffords are darned pretty... but they are as rare as rocks nowadays - seems like every second ad on those popular websites has some for sale at exhorbitant prices.

No completely ethical registered breeder in this country would be intentionally breeding for a blue litter. Sure, an unknown dilute may pop up here or there, but it's not a predominant goal to breed for them if you are breeding for show quality dogs.

I heard from a vet nurse that she has seen a couple of blue Staffords that have not only had the alopecia problem, eye and hearing issues, but also were hermaphrodite... now that is darned scary if it's true...

I don't know why we aren't seeing large numbers of blue Staffords in pounds, but the theory that people pay more for them and are more prepared to protect their investment by looking after them better might have a little bit of truth to it. A lot of animals that have high price tags when bought as pups are significantly under represented in pounds as a general rule. Many of the pet shop sourced "oodle" types and other crazy crosses are also under represented in pounds, as are most of the registered pure breeds. What we see a lot of in pounds are (IMHO) more likely to be dogs that have been sourced cheaply from BYB sources, the stats for unchipped and unregistered dogs in pounds tends to indicate they have been sourced from places that don't chip them...

T.

[shortstep]

Let's face it, blue Staffords are darned pretty... but they are as rare as rocks nowadays - seems like every second ad on those popular websites has some for sale at exhorbitant prices.

No completely ethical registered breeder in this country would be intentionally breeding for a blue litter. Sure, an unknown dilute may pop up here or there, but it's not a predominant goal to breed for them if you are breeding for show quality dogs.

I heard from a vet nurse that she has seen a couple of blue Staffords that have not only had the alopecia problem, eye and hearing issues, but also were hermaphrodite... now that is darned scary if it's true...

I don't know why we aren't seeing large numbers of blue Staffords in pounds, but the theory that people pay more for them and are more prepared to protect their investment by looking after them better might have a little bit of truth to it. A lot of animals that have high price tags when bought as pups are significantly under represented in pounds as a general rule. Many of the pet shop sourced "oodle" types and other crazy crosses are also under represented in pounds, as are most of the registered pure breeds. What we see a lot of in pounds are (IMHO) more likely to be dogs that have been sourced cheaply from BYB sources, the stats for unchipped and unregistered dogs in pounds tends to indicate they have been sourced from places that don't chip them...

T.

Very interesting observations.

I have never read that dilution gene is connected to eye or hearing problems or sex organ defects, only dilution alopecia. I think we would have to assume the eye and hearing problems are not connected to the colour blue. I will have a look and see what eye diseases are in the bred. I did notice a lot of white staffies for sale in DOL. White (extreme piebald white) and piebald are defiantly associated with deafness, which would explain the deafness problems.

There is nothing wrong with people breeding for show, but there is also nothing wrong with people not breeding for show. I think breeding for show or not breeding for show does not automatically reflect the quality of the breeding program.

I think this will become even more evident in the near future as greater demand and pressure is placed on 'fit for function' (pet being the only current function I can think of for the staffie). Now you could say that blue will come under fire in the fit for function area due to dilution alopecia, but this would affect all breeds that have blue dogs and currently that issues in not being taken up. Other than that, a blue nosed dog is just as suitable for a pet as a black nosed dog, eh.

I think you may have a point about respecting what you pay for. that might include, that when someone spends a lot of money they tend to be more careful in their selection process and less likely to act on whim. Would make a very interesting study.

Edited May 14, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Could not find a ANKC recommended list for health testing.

Found this from the US.

HEALTH and GENETIC TESTING for STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIERS By Margo MildeSBTCA Health Education Chair(Last updated August 2008)

The most common health and genetic tests used by breeders and owners of Staffordshire Bull Terriers includes evaluations for Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia, Patellar Luxation, L-2-HGA (L-2-Hydroxyglutaric Aciduria), and Hereditary (Juvenile) Cataracts. Less commonly used tests include the Cardiac (Heart) test (used to detect heart murmurs), the BAER hearing test (used to detect congenital deafness) and Thyroid evaluations (to screen for hypothyroidism).

BAER HEARING (Test for congenital deafness)

CARDIAC (Heart; records cardiac murmurs as indication of congenital cardiac disease)

ELBOW DYSPLASIA

HEREDITARY CATARACTS

HIP DYSPLASIA

L-2-HGA (L-2-Hydroxyglutaric Aciduria)

PATELLAR LUXATION

THYROID (Test for hypothyroidism)

In the UK Kennel Club required 'Fit for Function' testing for staffies,

http://www.fitforfunction.org.uk/document/kcDocument4D578.pdf

1. DNA test - HC

2. DNA test L2-HGA

3. Eye testing – should be done under the KC/BVA/ISDS Eye

Scheme or the KC/AHT Scheme or the ECVO Scheme. (Eye

examinations should be repeated annually and should be

within 18 months of the date of registration of a litter).

Gonioscopy is a separate eye test (for predisposition to

glaucoma) and, where relevant, this test is only done once.

However several notations are made to deafness in staffies so it is present in the breed, but no required testing.

[TessiesTracey]

You'll also find the PhPv and PPSC are two other eye problems that can sometimes occur within Staffords.

Though mode of inheritance is unknown (and is thought to be congenital), the UK Breed Council does recommend yearly testing.

Sick to the back teeth of the blue Stafford thing tbh.

Sick to the back teeth of reading adverts by 'breeders' who can't even type the abbreviation for an inherited disorder properly (L2Hga).

Q.Reason for not seeing so many blue Staffords in rescue? (Compared to x-breed Staffords and other colours).

A.Because a heck of a lot of the people who bought blues in the first place know when they're onto a money spinner, imo.

[Fatsofatsoman]

Ok because it seems to be constantly brought up and I have this argument alot I'll break it down.

ENGLISH STAFFY - Represents an uneducated, back yard breeder and or uneducated owner. PERIOD. A proper breeder, and or advocate of the breed will tell you it is. Staffy. Stafford, or Stafford bull terrier etc. There is NO NEED to add english staffy PURELY because if you knew the slightest thing about dogs you are able to differentiate between stafford and american stafford PERIOD. It is inappropriate to call it an english staffy. All that is, is making it lemans terms for something that is already simplified.

If you cannot differentiate between an am staff and a stafford then your obviously have faeces in your eyes.

When I see english staffy advertised selling anything I steer clear because I know it's not a trusted, educated, registered breeder.

The 'ENGLISH' part is already in the name. No need to add it.

not to be pedantic - but if one of your peeves is people naming them wrong - shouldn't you then also be calling them Staffordshire and not just Stafford?

[TessiesTracey]

Ok because it seems to be constantly brought up and I have this argument alot I'll break it down.

ENGLISH STAFFY - Represents an uneducated, back yard breeder and or uneducated owner. PERIOD. A proper breeder, and or advocate of the breed will tell you it is. Staffy. Stafford, or Stafford bull terrier etc. There is NO NEED to add english staffy PURELY because if you knew the slightest thing about dogs you are able to differentiate between stafford and american stafford PERIOD. It is inappropriate to call it an english staffy. All that is, is making it lemans terms for something that is already simplified.

If you cannot differentiate between an am staff and a stafford then your obviously have faeces in your eyes.

When I see english staffy advertised selling anything I steer clear because I know it's not a trusted, educated, registered breeder.

The 'ENGLISH' part is already in the name. No need to add it.

not to be pedantic - but if one of your peeves is people naming them wrong - shouldn't you then also be calling them Staffordshire and not just Stafford?

;) (tongue in cheek a bit here) Not necessarily, as Stafford is a major town within Staffordshire in England, where the originators of the breed were from, rather than just an abbreviation such as 'staffy'.

[Fatsofatsoman]

;) (tongue in cheek a bit here) Not necessarily, as Stafford is a major town within Staffordshire in England, where the originators of the breed were from, rather than just an abbreviation such as 'staffy'.

Cool - on that note I'm gonna start calling the Leek Bull Terriers (another town in Staffordshire) (my tongue is obviously firmly in cheek also) ;)

[TessiesTracey]

;) (tongue in cheek a bit here) Not necessarily, as Stafford is a major town within Staffordshire in England, where the originators of the breed were from, rather than just an abbreviation such as 'staffy'.

Cool - on that note I'm gonna start calling the Leek Bull Terriers (another town in Staffordshire) (my tongue is obviously firmly in cheek also) ;)

lol, in that case, let's get it right and call them Cradley Heath Bull Terriers... where the pub The Old Crossguns is, where Mallen and Dunn met with other breeders to form the Original Staffordshire Terrier Club (before the Bull came in - pardon the pun!). ;)

Edited June 8, 2011 by TessiesTracey

[Aziah]

Blue staffies can be shown. Even with un-black noses. They might not win anything, but then there are plenty of dogs that get shown and don't win. Doesn't stop them from being shown.

Yes they can but they shouldn't be and anyone who's looking at getting a show potential pup should at least read the standard and be aware that blue doesn't fit!

I hope that anyone buying a show potential puppy would make a sensible purchase and have a responsible and reliable breeder as a mentor...

Just because they can be shown doesn't mean they should be!

Edited June 8, 2011 by Aziah