Missymoo Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) Taken form an add (no link of course!) But for crying out loud, really??? ".....a litter of pure bred BLUE English staffy pups 4 females $2200 each. 2 males $1800 each...Pups will be sold registered with papers,vet checked, vaccinated,wormed and microchipped....We are a registered breeders with the VCA....." things that make you go mmmmm...geezz Edited May 12, 2011 by Missymoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 *eye twitch* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 and no doubt for a bit extra you'll get the sure fire 'show' puppy too...... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) and no doubt for a bit extra you'll get the sure fire 'show' puppy too...... :rolleyes: You just have to paint its nose leather black with some shoe polish before shows. Easy done, it's not any different to brushing up a poodle, right? Edit, typo Edited May 12, 2011 by Hardy's Angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) and no doubt for a bit extra you'll get the sure fire 'show' puppy too...... :rolleyes: You just have to paint its nose leather black with some shoe polish before shows. Easy done, it's not any different to brushing up a poodle, right? Edit, typo Not my breed, but on reading the standard the colour blue is allowed. However this is contradicted, as it also says the nose has to be black. Perhaps this part of the standard was written prior to understanding the colour genetics for dilute gene. Just another case of breed standards not reflecting modern knowledge of genetics. But it does bring in up an interesting subject. Standards get updated to reflect current ideas all the time. For example some one right now is documenting all the changes in standards over time to reflect trends in breeding to increase height, bone size, and weight of many breeds. Since many Kennel club breeds have gotten bigger and bigger as the generations go by, so it is practice (over time) to change the standards to match the current breeds appearence. Even more important, is that all KC standards reflect current science, such as colour genetics but this being only one area concern. I think we need to be very careful that we present a current and educated impression. At any rate, I am sure this breeder's buyers understand the colour genetics of dilutes and do not expect to get a black nose on their blue dog. Edited May 12, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) At any rate, I am sure this breeder's buyers understand the colour genetics of dilutes and do not expect to get a black nose on their blue dog. If they're willing to pay $2200 for a dog based on a colour that essentially prevents the dog from being shown successfully, I have my doubts that they'd be aware of a minor detail like incorrectly coloured nose leather. Expecting the average person to be aware of the differences in dilutes is being a little too hopeful, not everyone else is dog people and they just can't be expected to know these sorts of things. In my breed (where adopters tend to educate themselves pretty well before approaching us for a dog) we still have base colours incorrectly named on a very regular basis, never mind the average person actually having even a basic understanding of the dilutes. Edited May 13, 2011 by Hardy's Angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) At any rate, I am sure this breeder's buyers understand the colour genetics of dilutes and do not expect to get a black nose on their blue dog. If they're willing to pay $2200 for a dog based on a colour that essentially prevents the dog from being shown successfully, I have my doubts that they'd be aware of a minor detail like incorrectly coloured nose leather. Expecting the average person to be aware of the differences in dilutes is being a little too hopeful, not everyone else is dog people and they just can't be expected to know these sorts of things. In my breed (where adopters tend to educate themselves pretty well before approaching us for a dog) we still have base colours incorrectly named on a very regular basis, never mind the average person actually having even a basic understanding of the dilutes. LOL I think they are more than willing to pay the prices. So that is there choice and we do not need to blame them for doing it. The breeder is breeding a coat colour that is listed in the standard. LOL Only thing I have a problem with is dilute dogs often have dilution alopecia, that I hope the breeders has warned them about. I think when looking at the situation you can't do anything except start at the beginning. That is we need to start with a breed standard that reflects reality. Either blue is excepted or it is not. If there is any possible reason that only black noses are allowed on this breed other then that was what was written down at the time, then they need take blue out of the colour list, or if not then change the black nose statement. Ether way it needs to be fixed. Now if people are just ticked off the breeder can sell her dog for these high prices, that is a totally different problem. You can not use 'not meeting the standard' or 'breeding blue dogs' as the reason, or buyers can't show the dog' as these are directly related to the standard, it is the standard is messed up and needs to be fixed. Time is well spent cleaning up our own houses, instead of spending time looking around the web for someone breeding dogs in a way we may disapprove of. I have always been told that standards are so important, so our standards should reflect genetic truths. Pretty hard to go after someone else when it is the standard that is messed up. Edited May 13, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) ....... Nah. Short version: If the breeder doesn't know what breed the pups are then I'd be a bit worried. ENGLISH Staffy's :rolleyes: Edited May 13, 2011 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 LOL I think they are more than willing to pay the prices. So that is there choice and we do not need to blame them for doing it. The breeder is breeding a coat colour that is listed in the standard. LOL Only thing I have a problem with is dilute dogs often have dilution alopecia, that I hope the breeders has warned them about. I think when looking at the situation you can't do anything except start at the beginning. That is we need to start with a breed standard that reflects reality. Either blue is excepted or it is not. If there is any possible reason that only black noses are allowed on this breed other then that was what was written down at the time, then they need take blue out of the colour list, or if not then change the black nose statement. Ether way it needs to be fixed. Now if people are just ticked off the breeder can sell her dog for these high prices, that is a totally different problem. You can not use 'not meeting the standard' or 'breeding blue dogs' as the reason, or buyers can't show the dog' as these are directly related to the standard, it is the standard is messed up and needs to be fixed. Time is well spent cleaning up our own houses, instead of spending time looking around the web for someone breeding dogs in a way we may disapprove of. I have always been told that standards are so important, so our standards should reflect genetic truths. Pretty hard to go after someone else when it is the standard that is messed up. A willingness to shell out money is never going to reflect the amount of research or thought people put into buying a dog though. You only have to look at the prices of the various oddles to see that people will willingly pay out the nose for something that is (generally speaking) an inferior animal. I certainly wouldn't begrudge a breeder a good price for their pups, my issue is when buyer ignorance is being exploited to get more money than the dog is realistcally worth (based on prices of good examples of the breed). This is expecially true when the breeding is being done poorly and aimed entirely at getting a particular colour, rather than correct conformation or temperament. Basically, in my opinion, exploitation of ignorance is always wrong. A fool and his money are soon parted and all that but there's no reason any ethical breeder should be helping a fool part with his money. The standard is what it is and until it's changed to reflect what we now know, I have to say I'd be very wary of a breeder who breeds for blue Anyway.. this got totally off topic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMAK Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 ....... Nah. Short version: If the breeder doesn't know what breed the pups are then I'd be a bit worried. ENGLISH Staffy's :rolleyes: that was my first " who are these people breeding a dog in which they don't even know what bred it truley is! blue/dilute genes whole other story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 What I have a problem with is these are "Dogs Vic" registered breeders who obviously have no clue... I also recall another thread for a person who bought a Blue staff especially for the colour and got in all sorts of bother with a skin condition and the breeder not refunding her etc?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) What I have a problem with is these are "Dogs Vic" registered breeders who obviously have no clue... I also recall another thread for a person who bought a Blue staff especially for the colour and got in all sorts of bother with a skin condition and the breeder not refunding her etc?? Why do you say this ANKC registered breeder has no clue? Because she used the word English? for a breed from England, so as to not confuse it with the Staff from America for the persons reading the ad? Because she is breeding blue dogs that do not have black noses so can not be shown? Because she is charging more than you think she should? I have not seen the ad so do nor know what else was said, not do I have any idea what kennel it is, but just from the what you have posted I can not see anything that makes me want to publically ridicule this breeder and say she has no clue. Edited May 13, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Well you should go find the add and have a read then, and then you'd have an idea! Also how can I "publically ridicule this breeder" when I have posted nothing about them, bar some words from an add?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The standard is what it is and until it's changed to reflect what we now know, I have to say I'd be very wary of a breeder who breeds for blue Anyway.. this got totally off topic.. I do not like diluted colours for reason stated. However, I would be leery of any breeder that threw out otherwise great dogs from a breeding program due to a coat colour that is obviously in the breed, just because the breed standard is messed up or they can not show the dog. For goodness sakes it is a blue nose on a blue dog, what else would you expect, there is nothing wrong with that. Just another example why bred ring is under fire, causing a wrong reason to reduce the gene pool. BTW I notice the standard says eye rims only need to be 'dark' so I guess then can have blue eye rims. I am not sure what the topic was in the first place? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Blue staffies can be shown. Even with un-black noses. They might not win anything, but then there are plenty of dogs that get shown and don't win. Doesn't stop them from being shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Well you should go find the add and have a read then, and then you'd have an idea! Also how can I "publically ridicule this breeder" when I have posted nothing about them, bar some words from an add?? Ok so why does she have no clue?? You the one who posted the topic and I am just trying to figure out what you are on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 It is easy to differentiate the two breeds One is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the other the American Staffordshire Terrier. So there is no need to add English to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Because she used the word English? for a breed from England, so as to not confuse it with the Staff from America for the persons reading the ad? Really can't be bothered with the B-S anymore. What is so confusing about Staffordshire Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier???? People who don't know the difference obviously haven't done enough research to own ANY dog. It must really be confusing for those wanting to own a Greyhound, or is it a Bloodhound or maybe a Dachshund they want. IMO breeders are the ones who should be educating the public on the correct names of breeds - ESPECIALLY in the case of a breed such as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier which has enough useless owners (and breeders!) out there. Not even going to comment on the blue issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DobieMum Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Because she used the word English? for a breed from England, so as to not confuse it with the Staff from America for the persons reading the ad? Really can't be bothered with the B-S anymore. What is so confusing about Staffordshire Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier???? People who don't know the difference obviously haven't done enough research to own ANY dog. It must really be confusing for those wanting to own a Greyhound, or is it a Bloodhound or maybe a Dachshund they want. IMO breeders are the ones who should be educating the public on the correct names of breeds - ESPECIALLY in the case of a breed such as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier which has enough useless owners (and breeders!) out there. Not even going to comment on the blue issue. I have a friend who has had 2 byb litters, just between their 2 staffy's (one a crossbred). They ended up out of the last litter keeping a male pup and getting rid of the bitch finally said Shell!! Then the other day she was talking to me and said they were discussing when their ready to retire, they want to get 4 blue staffy's and have at least a litter a year cause people really want them and I can sell them for at least $500, were what her word were to me. I've tried explaining eveything to her, but she won't listen, and both her last 2 litters she had 6 pups in each and sold them all for that price and no issues with either pregnancy or whelping. It frustrates me so much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie_a1 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Ok because it seems to be constantly brought up and I have this argument alot I'll break it down. ENGLISH STAFFY - Represents an uneducated, back yard breeder and or uneducated owner. PERIOD. A proper breeder, and or advocate of the breed will tell you it is. Staffy. Stafford, or Stafford bull terrier etc. There is NO NEED to add english staffy PURELY because if you knew the slightest thing about dogs you are able to differentiate between stafford and american stafford PERIOD. It is inappropriate to call it an english staffy. All that is, is making it lemans terms for something that is already simplified. If you cannot differentiate between an am staff and a stafford then your obviously have faeces in your eyes. When I see english staffy advertised selling anything I steer clear because I know it's not a trusted, educated, registered breeder. The 'ENGLISH' part is already in the name. No need to add it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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