Dog Breeding

[JoeK]

Sometimes hard to tell if it's good or faulty at 8 weeks old, though, Joe. There are plenty of dogs that seem nice enough at 8 weeks old but that go on to develop something like a joint dysplasia or a temperament flaw as they get older. So I agree with breeders putting pups on limited to start with, but changing them back onto main if the dog grows up to be a good representative of the breed. Especially for the more over-bred breeds.

If buyers don't like that, they can always go to another breeder.

If the dog is on the main registration and has the bad hips and temperament fault, who in the reality is going to want this dog over their bitch, is not sensible anyone would doing this for a registered breeding, if they did their kennel name not lasting long for credibity so it doesnt matter if poor dog is on main registration becuase who wants it in the gene pooling or puppy from it anyway? This situation on my opinion is over inflated that main registration is meaning everyone breeding from them when they are not good quality. If I taking my stud dog to the Schutzhund field and offer him with bad hips floppy ears, no drive and two teeth for biting the sleeve, they tell me piss off Joe, you idiot we not wanting stud on your dog so it doesnt matter if he main registration becuase everyone know hes crook dog, yes.

Joe

[vetrg]

Playing devil's advocate..........

As people have said, what makes a good dog is somewhat a personal opinion. If it was not discussed at length at the time of purchase (please bear that in mind) when I buy a pup, and it turns out a nice dog, great at its job (being a pet), good conformation, no health issues BUT is on the limited register, why should the breeder get to say I can't have a litter from my dog. I would like a pup, a couple of my friends would like a pup so I can get homes for them all. I would like to mate it to a pedigree and register the pups. I am asking the dog's breeder for advice for a sire.I am being reasonable in all my requests.

If the breeder IN THEIR OPINION doesn't think "it's good enough" to be on the main register and refuses to change it, are you not encouraging me to say "nuts to the lot of you, I will mate it to the unregisterd dog down the road!"

Pedigree dog breeding is the ONLY animal where the original breeder gets to dictate the use of the animal after its purchase. I suspect it is actually on dodgy legal ground as the dog is a possession, legally, of the owner and unless there is a signed contract stipulating no breeding I suspect you cannot refuse to change the register status of the dog. I also wonder even if there is a written contract that a good lawyer couldn't challenge it on the grounds that noone can know at 8 weeks old what the dog will turn into. Just a thought.

[JoeK]

Limited registration sounding more to me like being control freak for the breeder. Is no ruling on the kennel club for pets must be limited registration, that ruling what someone make up himself is not the facts for registration. If the dog having major fault disqualify from the show or fault contradicting to the standard is fair enough on the limited registration like we used to have with the longhair Shepherd Dog or the white Shepherd, but is good dog and meet the standard, limited register restricting rights of owning pedigree dog. Is either good dog or faulty dog on my opinion, is good should be main registration and faulty on limited cant having both bites on the cherry to saying is excellent breeding on the limited, my opinion is excellent breeding should be on the mains.

Joe

So you're saying that a registered breeder should have no control over what happens with their dogs. Just let anyone breed from them or show a dog that is not a good representation. The dog may be healthy but not ideal for breeding or showing,

You can call them control freaks but these people are trying to protect the quality of purebred dogs, to the benefit of pet owners and breeders/showies alike.

When they sell the dog, is no longer their dog to make the decisions what happens. When you sell the house, you cant telling new owner what color the front door must be is same thing with the dog and if wanting control of something dont sell it is my thinking? There is good breeders and the ones not having much clue so having the kennel registration and putting two dogs together doesnt meaning they know whats best to call this shot always. I have seen few times in the working dogs very nice male who should be breeding but breeder wont change registration on the dog to main, so this power on the breeder doesnt helping the future of the breed either.

Joe

Maybe the breeder knows something you don't? Maybe the litter brothers all had an undescended testicle or the hip averages of the rest of litter were way too high ect.

Yes that is possible, and I seen them do this to prevent others competing with their own dogs for stud fee which happens too is called greed and the ego?

Joe

[JoeK]

Playing devil's advocate..........

As people have said, what makes a good dog is somewhat a personal opinion. If it was not discussed at length at the time of purchase (please bear that in mind) when I buy a pup, and it turns out a nice dog, great at its job (being a pet), good conformation, no health issues BUT is on the limited register, why should the breeder get to say I can't have a litter from my dog. I would like a pup, a couple of my friends would like a pup so I can get homes for them all. I would like to mate it to a pedigree and register the pups. I am asking the dog's breeder for advice for a sire.I am being reasonable in all my requests.

If the breeder IN THEIR OPINION doesn't think "it's good enough" to be on the main register and refuses to change it, are you not encouraging me to say "nuts to the lot of you, I will mate it to the unregisterd dog down the road!"

Pedigree dog breeding is the ONLY animal where the original breeder gets to dictate the use of the animal after its purchase. I suspect it is actually on dodgy legal ground as the dog is a possession, legally, of the owner and unless there is a signed contract stipulating no breeding I suspect you cannot refuse to change the register status of the dog. I also wonder even if there is a written contract that a good lawyer couldn't challenge it on the grounds that noone can know at 8 weeks old what the dog will turn into. Just a thought.

Yes, is nice posting much better than I can explain thank you.

Joe

[OSoSwift]

When you bought the dog what register it was on would have been explained as would the breeders position on potentially upgrading the dog - or not!

If someone wants a dog to potentially breed from a dog then they should be upfront about it. If a person wants to breed they should only breed from sound - physically and mentally - fit dogs. The breeder would have more knowledge that a new person to the breed so if they said it wasn't good enough then well it isn't.

While I understand a person saying well it's my dog I can do what I like, I can also understand a breedr trying to protect the puppies/dog they have bred.

I would hate to think of any dog I had bred being used to pump out puppies by someone who does not have a code of ethics to abide by and no real knowledge or means to breed correctly. The bitch could be pumping out puppies every season ( which we all know examples of!) I do not want that for my puppies./ I want them to go to loving families where they are loved companions first and for most, not a potential breeding and or money making machine.

Personally if someone approached me regarding a potential show pup I would not dismiss it and say only the ones I keep are on mains, but I would make sure - to the best of my ability - that they were legitimate and caring owners for that puppy (like any pet or not, but especially for a Mains puppy)

[Lyla]

Playing devil's advocate..........

As people have said, what makes a good dog is somewhat a personal opinion. If it was not discussed at length at the time of purchase (please bear that in mind) when I buy a pup, and it turns out a nice dog, great at its job (being a pet), good conformation, no health issues BUT is on the limited register, why should the breeder get to say I can't have a litter from my dog. I would like a pup, a couple of my friends would like a pup so I can get homes for them all. I would like to mate it to a pedigree and register the pups. I am asking the dog's breeder for advice for a sire.I am being reasonable in all my requests.

If the breeder IN THEIR OPINION doesn't think "it's good enough" to be on the main register and refuses to change it, are you not encouraging me to say "nuts to the lot of you, I will mate it to the unregisterd dog down the road!"

Pedigree dog breeding is the ONLY animal where the original breeder gets to dictate the use of the animal after its purchase. I suspect it is actually on dodgy legal ground as the dog is a possession, legally, of the owner and unless there is a signed contract stipulating no breeding I suspect you cannot refuse to change the register status of the dog. I also wonder even if there is a written contract that a good lawyer couldn't challenge it on the grounds that noone can know at 8 weeks old what the dog will turn into. Just a thought.

So you are expecting a breeder to use their name and prefix to get you a litter?

I think the majority of pet owners think their dogs are fabulous, and therefore are breed worthy, but loving your dog does not make it breed worthy. If you and your friends want a pup, maybe a repeat mating from the same parents is more likely to reproduce what you want.

ETA: The breeder also has their own reputation to think about. If I let you breed a nice-ish dog from one of my litters, you sell a pup on mains to your mate, who breeds his ok-ish dog etc etc, before long there are some not so great examples of the breed walking around with your prefix in their pedigree. Just a thought. ;)

Edited May 11, 2011 by Got nuthin

[vetrg]

I sort of think you are missing the point. Ethical breeding, protecting bloodlines etc etc etc. All of this is stated all the time but - please bear with me because I do understand all of those points of view, and accept them as valid- if you consider the point of view of the general public, do you not see that all of this comes over as a closed, elitist, self protecting "club".

They think- Why should I not breed from my dog because you tell me I can't? I can breed my horse, my cow, my sheep. How do you get to stop me doing what I want from a decision you made several years ago on an 8 week old pup? I have asked for advice and I just get told- you aren't well educated enough to decide on whether you can breed a dog? Why should I have to BUY a pup from the repeat mating when I want to breeed one from my dog and give them free to my friends? I don't want to do it for the money not to turn my dog into a puppy mill. This is not encouraging someone to be interested in the breed.

Please try to restrain the vials of vitriol that you are now planning to throw at the screen. I am trying to present the thoughts of a non showing/ non dog breeding member of the public. I have been asked this in my clinic, and having just examined a dog that I felt was a fit healthy specimen of the breed (no idea about "breed standard" though) I had no answer. Especially as the breed standards in some breeds hardly encourage the breeding of healthy stock in the first place (although hopefully that is changing). Please don't also post how healthy YOUR breed is- we all know the breeds that have ingrained issues.

[OSoSwift]

You won't get vitriol from me.

I can see your point.

If a dog is healthy people will wonder why not, but a Whippet that is healthy is great, but not if it resembles a JRT cross?? It should be healthy and look like it should. Hmmm don't think I can put into words what I am thinking.

I worked in the veterinary industry for many years and there were many people that thought their dogs were the beez neez and they would make wonderful puppies. Sometimes to be honest their dogs was a dog that you could see a fleeting glimps of what it was actually supposed to be, or it was down right ugly. They didn't think that a level bite was an issue, or that all Jack Russell skip it's just a habit they have, or that all Staffords have bandy legs.

The truth is no they shouldn't have those things but many owners thought that was the norm (and yes there are many other things I have heard in that vein)

The Purebred Bull Terrier that was a definate cross, but the owner had kept her entire to breed because she was purebred when there was no chance she was. The owner must have heard it all before as she was extremely aggressive about any suggestion about her being wayyy over sized or not having the lovely head shape that BT's are reknowned for, also she had no idea about testing for the kidney disease these guys can get and to be honest the vets didn't really have a clue about which genetic tests were recommended/required for the various purebreds.

The other reasons not to breed a seemingly very healthy dog is they have no idea if there is an issue behind it, especially if it does not have any pedigree info. There may be a resessive gene they know nothing about, they breed, the other piece of the puzzle is fitted and say 6 different families get a puppy with a genetic issue. The will blame the breed instead of the BYB that didn't have a clue in the first place. Many people breed seemingly healthy dogs that have no genetic testing. There was a littler of Border Collies down here, seemingly healthy parents. One pup euthed with TNS at a young age, all other pups will be carriers.

Personally I want it all, really good looking, extremely sound physically and the temperment to do dog sports etc. That is what I strive for. To me there is a lot more to owning and breeding the perfect dog than the show ring. But I also do not think that puppies should be bred willy nilly as reality dictates that these wonderful homes people have lined up quite often fall through. Yes there is people that may wish to only have one litter and not pump out babies, but it can be very hard to tell.

My babies will not be desexed before going, I hope that people do what we agree on and desex any limited register pet puppies. However at the end of the day I cannot guarentee that is what they will do.

Edited May 11, 2011 by OSoSwift

[sandgrubber]

More devil's advocacy . . .

Pedigree dog ownership will continue to decline as breeders become more exclusive in placing main register dogs. In olden days, there wasn't much objection to someone who had a good, though not show quality, dog decided to have a litter and place pups with friends and neighbours. Now this is viewed as sinful. Personally, I don't like the way many breed standards are interpreted in the show ring, and I've seen a lot of desexed pets that I wouldn't mind having a pup from. That is 'plain' and 'average' individuals may be just as good as 'extreme' individuals who win in shows. If you remove the 'plain' from the breeding pool, you may be cutting out the very part of the gene pool that would allow recovery from such things as inability to whelp naturally, high incidence of entropian, or unhealthy skin.

To me, pedigree means simply that the lineage is known. Not that the lineage is all individuals who could win a beauty show. (Health tests are another issue . . . but these are not generally done before the decision of 'main' or 'limited'.

[Lyla]

I sort of think you are missing the point. Ethical breeding, protecting bloodlines etc etc etc. All of this is stated all the time but - please bear with me because I do understand all of those points of view, and accept them as valid- if you consider the point of view of the general public, do you not see that all of this comes over as a closed, elitist, self protecting "club".

They think- Why should I not breed from my dog because you tell me I can't? I can breed my horse, my cow, my sheep. How do you get to stop me doing what I want from a decision you made several years ago on an 8 week old pup? I have asked for advice and I just get told- you aren't well educated enough to decide on whether you can breed a dog? Why should I have to BUY a pup from the repeat mating when I want to breeed one from my dog and give them free to my friends? I don't want to do it for the money not to turn my dog into a puppy mill. This is not encouraging someone to be interested in the breed.

Please try to restrain the vials of vitriol that you are now planning to throw at the screen. I am trying to present the thoughts of a non showing/ non dog breeding member of the public. I have been asked this in my clinic, and having just examined a dog that I felt was a fit healthy specimen of the breed (no idea about "breed standard" though) I had no answer. Especially as the breed standards in some breeds hardly encourage the breeding of healthy stock in the first place (although hopefully that is changing). Please don't also post how healthy YOUR breed is- we all know the breeds that have ingrained issues.

Well I consider myself to be the "general public" as you put it, but maybe with a little more knowledge / expertise / experience in my breed. As a breeder you do have a code of ethics to abide by, so if you tell me I have to let you breed your dog because it's no longer mine, where does that leave me? I have had plenty of bad experiences in my short time as a breeder, so isn't it in your best interest to take some of my experience to save yourself some heartache? My recommendations do not come from being elitist, but purely by trying to do the right thing by my breed and the purchaser...in line with the code of ethics.

As for breeding your dogs for free, well that's not really a reality in my world. I have a breed that requires hip and elbow scoring of both parents to register the litter, so that is a mere $600 for each dog. Apart from that IF their scores are good, there are the unexpected pregnancy problems. For example - my only litter last year was lost to a uterine infection at day 52. Cost to me $1600. This years litter - traumatic labour due to large pups (I have a common, natural birthing breed), ending in an after hours emergency caeser, 2 lost pups and maiden bitch has ruptured uterus. Cost of $2500, and bitch cannot be bred again. So out of 2 litters, I have 5 live pups, one I will keep, 4 to sell will barely cover the cost of 2 vet bills. Anyway, the point is that breeding pedigree pups costs money. (though if you are a vet maybe this makes my point redundant!)

If someone asks you should they breed their dog, you could say that in your opinion the dog appears fit and healthy, but they should refer back to their breeder for mentoring and advice. Nomatter how magnificent the dog, whelping requires knowledge (and usually some back up funds). ;) I only say this as while vets can give certain lines of advice, so can the breeder. Maybe the pup was put on limited reg as it may be a carrier of a certain genetic condition. Some times the breeder knows things the vet cannot.

Hopefully my post has not offended you as I am only trying to show my viewpoint as Joe Average who happens to breed the odd litter, and has had her share of bad luck in doing so. I don't quite get, though, why I would be preaching on the health of my breed? Plenty of potential health issues in any breed IMO.

[OSoSwift]

I guess in a way SG that is how I have gotten to the point I have. My bitch was on Limited, bought as a pet ( I have shown dogs before) as time went on and many exchanges with the breeder she got changed to the MR and has now been shown a few times and will have a litter. It will be a registered litter.

I am not totally against a person having a litter but I think there are certain things that I don't agree with as I have said previously.

A bitch that is bred from and the litter not registered, contributes nothing to the gene pool as the puppies cannot be used in future breeding programmes.

[Lyla]

More devil's advocacy . . .

Pedigree dog ownership will continue to decline as breeders become more exclusive in placing main register dogs. In olden days, there wasn't much objection to someone who had a good, though not show quality, dog decided to have a litter and place pups with friends and neighbours. Now this is viewed as sinful. Personally, I don't like the way many breed standards are interpreted in the show ring, and I've seen a lot of desexed pets that I wouldn't mind having a pup from. That is 'plain' and 'average' individuals may be just as good as 'extreme' individuals who win in shows. If you remove the 'plain' from the breeding pool, you may be cutting out the very part of the gene pool that would allow recovery from such things as inability to whelp naturally, high incidence of entropian, or unhealthy skin.

To me, pedigree means simply that the lineage is known. Not that the lineage is all individuals who could win a beauty show. (Health tests are another issue . . . but these are not generally done before the decision of 'main' or 'limited'.

Agree!

Breeding is more than a beauty contest.

[Shaar]

I think everyone is missing the point in that ALL of these puppies have already been SOLD..... as PETS. No need to have them on main register.

If people are interested in showing or breeding then BE UPFRONT about it when buying the puppy.

I don't think breeders selling puppies on limit register is curbing anyone's interest in showing and breeding at all. Those who want to show and possibly become future breeders will only want a QUALITY puppy which is going to go on main register.

To those who think all dogs should be on main register. How would you feel if you bred a puppy you weren't happy with, it just was no good conformation wise.

You sell this dog on main register to a Lady in say Queensland.

This lady decides when the dog is 12 months old she wants to show it.

The dog is poorly groomed, they have had NO mentoring from you because you didn't think they were going to show.

Would you want that puppy with YOUR kennel name on it in the ring for everyone to ridicule your breeding? Would you want everyone saying how terrible it is that you never told them how to groom?

Of course not!

That is why limit register is needed and should be used.

[sandgrubber]

oops! double post

Edited May 12, 2011 by sandgrubber

[JoeK]

Playing devil's advocate..........

As people have said, what makes a good dog is somewhat a personal opinion. If it was not discussed at length at the time of purchase (please bear that in mind) when I buy a pup, and it turns out a nice dog, great at its job (being a pet), good conformation, no health issues BUT is on the limited register, why should the breeder get to say I can't have a litter from my dog. I would like a pup, a couple of my friends would like a pup so I can get homes for them all. I would like to mate it to a pedigree and register the pups. I am asking the dog's breeder for advice for a sire.I am being reasonable in all my requests.

If the breeder IN THEIR OPINION doesn't think "it's good enough" to be on the main register and refuses to change it, are you not encouraging me to say "nuts to the lot of you, I will mate it to the unregisterd dog down the road!"

Pedigree dog breeding is the ONLY animal where the original breeder gets to dictate the use of the animal after its purchase. I suspect it is actually on dodgy legal ground as the dog is a possession, legally, of the owner and unless there is a signed contract stipulating no breeding I suspect you cannot refuse to change the register status of the dog. I also wonder even if there is a written contract that a good lawyer couldn't challenge it on the grounds that noone can know at 8 weeks old what the dog will turn into. Just a thought.

So you are expecting a breeder to use their name and prefix to get you a litter?

I think the majority of pet owners think their dogs are fabulous, and therefore are breed worthy, but loving your dog does not make it breed worthy. If you and your friends want a pup, maybe a repeat mating from the same parents is more likely to reproduce what you want.

ETA: The breeder also has their own reputation to think about. If I let you breed a nice-ish dog from one of my litters, you sell a pup on mains to your mate, who breeds his ok-ish dog etc etc, before long there are some not so great examples of the breed walking around with your prefix in their pedigree. Just a thought. ;)

Yes,this is happening too. The concern for the pup on the main registration is bull, the breeder thinking everyone is stupid? The limited registration doesnt fixing poor life for the pup and bad treatment day to day and breeding is not only way pup can be abused, so to say the breeder thinking of the pup for limited registration is bull otherwise is the people so untrusting to have the puppy and doing right thing for the pup, these people not good enough to own the pup in the first place. If the breeder cant trusting new owner with the main registration, they are not trustful enough to sell pup to them is my feeling?

So is more about greed and ego they worried of bad pup in their lines and also worry about better pup knocking their lines of the poduim too, this happening badly on sporting dogs I seen before.

My opinion for this is the pup comply on the breeding standards should be main registration. If the puppy is a dud, should be truthfull and tell new owners puppy is low on the quality and is limited registration, none of this is beatiful example on the limited registration and should be either beautiful on the main or dud on the limited in my opinion. Also my opinion if you cant trusting enough the new owner to having main registration is fair enough but what I asking if trust is problem, how you trusting the new owner will feed the dog is dinner or doesnt feeding the dog properly matter?

Joe

[Mystiqview]

All puppies going into pet homes go on a limit register. NO ifs or buts. If the puppy buyer does not like it, they can buy a puppy elsewhere. They still get the same 3 generation pedigree certificate from the CCCQ listing the same pedigree. they get a pretty green one rather than a dirty red (IMO) one. (Do not like the red colour on our ped certs). I also keep a comprehensive breed database and print off a seven generation pedigree and place in their puppy folder.

If they are not looking at breeding and are going to desex the puppy anyway, why put them on the main register? If they change their mind later and do breed, at least they cannot use your time and hard work and piggy back off it and breed that puppy to crap. They can still breed, but at least it is not going to be pedigree and your name, kennel and the contacts you have worked so hard to get are not going to end up on a pedigree certificate boasting only mediocre dogs at best. If they do not health test, also your kennel prefix is not going to be broadcasted everywhere to selling to someone who has not ethics or morals.

If they decide (and with your input) at a later date the puppy MAY be suitable to breed, then you can move it up to main register. If you think the pup shows promise and do not want to see it desexed, then sell the puppy on a co-own on Main Register. Then at least you still have control on where and when that pup is bred to and more importantly with WHO!!

[Rebanne]

If the breeder IN THEIR OPINION doesn't think "it's good enough" to be on the main register and refuses to change it, are you not encouraging me to say "nuts to the lot of you, I will mate it to the unregisterd dog down the road!"

no, that is your choice if you choose to ignore your breeder's advice. Unless you have been in the breed for a few years, owned a few of the breed and at least studied the breed in the ring or the field, actually health tested etc, what on earth makes you think your judgement is better?

[JoeK]

You won't get vitriol from me.

I can see your point.

If a dog is healthy people will wonder why not, but a Whippet that is healthy is great, but not if it resembles a JRT cross?? It should be healthy and look like it should. Hmmm don't think I can put into words what I am thinking.

I worked in the veterinary industry for many years and there were many people that thought their dogs were the beez neez and they would make wonderful puppies. Sometimes to be honest their dogs was a dog that you could see a fleeting glimps of what it was actually supposed to be, or it was down right ugly. They didn't think that a level bite was an issue, or that all Jack Russell skip it's just a habit they have, or that all Staffords have bandy legs.

The truth is no they shouldn't have those things but many owners thought that was the norm (and yes there are many other things I have heard in that vein)

The Purebred Bull Terrier that was a definate cross, but the owner had kept her entire to breed because she was purebred when there was no chance she was. The owner must have heard it all before as she was extremely aggressive about any suggestion about her being wayyy over sized or not having the lovely head shape that BT's are reknowned for, also she had no idea about testing for the kidney disease these guys can get and to be honest the vets didn't really have a clue about which genetic tests were recommended/required for the various purebreds.

The other reasons not to breed a seemingly very healthy dog is they have no idea if there is an issue behind it, especially if it does not have any pedigree info. There may be a resessive gene they know nothing about, they breed, the other piece of the puzzle is fitted and say 6 different families get a puppy with a genetic issue. The will blame the breed instead of the BYB that didn't have a clue in the first place. Many people breed seemingly healthy dogs that have no genetic testing. There was a littler of Border Collies down here, seemingly healthy parents. One pup euthed with TNS at a young age, all other pups will be carriers.

Personally I want it all, really good looking, extremely sound physically and the temperment to do dog sports etc. That is what I strive for. To me there is a lot more to owning and breeding the perfect dog than the show ring. But I also do not think that puppies should be bred willy nilly as reality dictates that these wonderful homes people have lined up quite often fall through. Yes there is people that may wish to only have one litter and not pump out babies, but it can be very hard to tell.

My babies will not be desexed before going, I hope that people do what we agree on and desex any limited register pet puppies. However at the end of the day I cannot guarentee that is what they will do.

But this happening for breeders thinking they have the beez neez on their stock for me is concern too and trusting some breeders to maintain the proper trait in the breed is not happening. A lady I am knowing ask me Joe, whats you thinking on my Shepherd bitch for sire and no question the bitch needing working line dog on the mating to improve the drive of the bitch which is faulty. The lady tell the breeder she looking to mate with working line Shepherd Dog to bring back some drive the Shepherd Dog is should be having in the gene and the breeder throwing fit saying she not changing to main registration to breed on working lines?

So the breeder concentrate on winning the show is ok, but the trait of the breed is flying out the window, the dogs have no drive, the dogs have no courage, the dogs have weak nerve is only thing about true Shepherd Dog is looking like one nothing else, my opnion is wrong, so when someone wanting to put the trait back into the breed to try and breed proper Shepherd Dog, the breeder blocking this on the limited registration is no good.

Joe

[poodlefan]

I don't have a problem at all with breeders deciding which of their pups are show/breeding quality and which aren't - the dogs carry their prefix after all.

I also don't have an issue with folk needing to learn something about their breed and breed standard before breeders allow them to buy or use Main Register dogs. The number of JRT owners who regard east/west fronts and cabriole legs as "normal" is gobsmacking.

But there is no point in memorising the breed standard if you don't know the "why's" of what it contains.

The problem as I see it is that some breeders have a flat ban on selling or providing dogs for breeding purposes. End result is the line dies out with the breeder. How that is protecting the interests of the breed for the future defeats me.

Somewhere in between no dogs sold on Main Register and pet dog folk breeding their dogs "because they can" there is a mid point. Our challenge is to find it.

Everyone started out as a newb in breeding once. Some folk seem to forget it.

Pat Hastings made an interesting and telling observation at her seminar the other night. She said that all the advice to new breeders to buy a top quality bitch to start was pointless "because no one will sell you one".

I wish folk would occasionally think beyond their backyards to consider how and from whom the next generation of dogs will be bred. I take my hat off to those that do and only wish there were more of them.

Back on point.. you can sell a pup on Limited Register and upgrade it if its of sufficient quality. I'd like to think that buyers might be able to change their minds, go on to show their "pets" and perhaps take the plunge and become breeders.

Of course if you desex the pups before sale it ain't never going to happen. In the high demand/puppy mill breeds, I can't say I blame those who do for being short sighted though.

Edited May 11, 2011 by poodlefan

[JoeK]

I think everyone is missing the point in that ALL of these puppies have already been SOLD..... as PETS. No need to have them on main register.

If people are interested in showing or breeding then BE UPFRONT about it when buying the puppy.

I don't think breeders selling puppies on limit register is curbing anyone's interest in showing and breeding at all. Those who want to show and possibly become future breeders will only want a QUALITY puppy which is going to go on main register.

To those who think all dogs should be on main register. How would you feel if you bred a puppy you weren't happy with, it just was no good conformation wise.

You sell this dog on main register to a Lady in say Queensland.

This lady decides when the dog is 12 months old she wants to show it.

The dog is poorly groomed, they have had NO mentoring from you because you didn't think they were going to show.

Would you want that puppy with YOUR kennel name on it in the ring for everyone to ridicule your breeding? Would you want everyone saying how terrible it is that you never told them how to groom?

Of course not!

That is why limit register is needed and should be used.

Most breeder does this to themselves anyway only one can win and the rest are loosers in the reality of things. There are plenty of breeder who exhibiting that never get better result than half way down the winner list and some hang on reputation of winning 20 year ago and done nothing since, so is hardly going to change perception if someone put a dog of theirs to the show and not score well when the breeder doesnt score well anyway.

Joe