What Should The Breeder Do?

[Quickasyoucan]

My sister has medium/large breed puppy who she bought from a reputable breeder from parents with good hip scores.

She has tried to do all the right things with the pup who has limited exercise, is lean, has a ramp to get in and out of the car etc. Yet the pup has had intermittent hind limb issues since around 5 months.

She has been to 2 specialists and so far has no clear diagnosis.

Her breeder has been nothing but supportive and was shocked and upset that there might be a problem.

What I am trying to say echos other people's comments. You can do your best but still things can happen. I think if breeders and owners do all that they can to ensure a good outcome and still something turns out to be awry you just have to deal with the hand that fate has dealt you. A bit like when as humans we choose to have children, although we would like them to be perfect, nature does not always make things turn out that way.

Seems to me also from my sister's experience and also from my own experience with orthopaedic issues, it can for some conditions be a pretty inexact science short of actually cutting the dog open and particularly when a dog is not fully matured. I was wrongly told my crossbreed dog had HD by a generalist vet only to be told by the specialist it was more likely that the dog was positioned wrongly when the xrays were taken and his hips were fine and his lameness was due to his cruciate in the other leg!!

[shortstep]

ETA: it's like buying a new car, you buy it new from a dearlershiop, because it has a five star safety rating, etc. But then when something happens to it. It would be like the dealer turning around saying, well I don't know how you have been driving it, I'm not going to fix it. Come on, I think if your going to take the pride in breeding quality pups, you should take at least part responsibilty, if the pup turns out with problems like this pup has.

I'm just thankful, there are some great breeders out there.

This is a common misunderstanding about animals, however dogs are not cars. Dogs are made of genes not parts.

Do you have any idea how many genes are in a dog?

I do not see any time in the near future that dogs will be built in factories by big companies that design each gene in their bodies and then test those genes to make sure ever single one works perfectly.

BTW even great dog breeders will breed dogs with problems.

Edited May 11, 2011 by shortstep

[Bartok]

Why not try the stem cell process?

It is $1800

My friends Westie just had it done

I know they do it at Norwest Vets and Ryde vets also

Might be worth looking into

It is same day surgery

[meluchja]

ETA: it's like buying a new car, you buy it new from a dearlershiop, because it has a five star safety rating, etc. But then when something happens to it. It would be like the dealer turning around saying, well I don't know how you have been driving it, I'm not going to fix it. Come on, I think if your going to take the pride in breeding quality pups, you should take at least part responsibilty, if the pup turns out with problems like this pup has.

I'm just thankful, there are some great breeders out there.

This is a common misunderstanding about animals, however dogs are not cars. Dogs are made of genes not parts.

Do you have any idea how many genes are in a dog?

I do not see any time in the near future that dogs will be built in factories by big companies that design each gene in their bodies and then test those genes to make sure ever single one works perfectly.

BTW even great dog breeders will breed dogs with problems.

absolutely, I personally know of a great breeder that has encountered such issues. I also understand that cars are different to dogs, ;) My point was, that I don't think it's fair for a breeder to pretty much say bad luck, not my fault you were the unlucky one who ended up with a dog with problems. And then take no responsibility, and offer no re-embursement. Our family friend, who is a well known a liked breeder, agrees.

I uderstand why someone should buy from a registered breeder, I didn't word that right. But what I don't understand is why should they buy from a breeder who would offer no re-embursement if an owner ends up with a dog with genetic/growth/allergy etc. problems. I just don't think it's fair for the owner, and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[shortstep]

ETA: it's like buying a new car, you buy it new from a dearlershiop, because it has a five star safety rating, etc. But then when something happens to it. It would be like the dealer turning around saying, well I don't know how you have been driving it, I'm not going to fix it. Come on, I think if your going to take the pride in breeding quality pups, you should take at least part responsibilty, if the pup turns out with problems like this pup has.

I'm just thankful, there are some great breeders out there.

This is a common misunderstanding about animals, however dogs are not cars. Dogs are made of genes not parts.

Do you have any idea how many genes are in a dog?

I do not see any time in the near future that dogs will be built in factories by big companies that design each gene in their bodies and then test those genes to make sure ever single one works perfectly.

BTW even great dog breeders will breed dogs with problems.

absolutely, I personally know of a great breeder that has encountered such issues. I also understand that cars are different to dogs, ;) My point was, that I don't think it's fair for a breeder to pretty much say bad luck, not my fault you were the unlucky one who ended up with a dog with problems. And then take no responsibility, and offer no re-embursement. Our family friend, who is a well known a liked breeder, agrees.

I uderstand why someone should buy from a registered breeder, I didn't word that right. But what I don't understand is why should they buy from a breeder who would offer no re-embursement if an owner ends up with a dog with genetic/growth/allergy etc. problems. I just don't think it's fair for the owner, and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I understand, but lets look at this situation.

Since we do not know what breed of dog it is, only that it is a giant breed, lets take Breed Giant X (this is a real breed but will leave off the name of the breed), according to OFA 48.1% of dogs of this breed submitted for scoring were dysplastic.

Ok so the breeder decides they are willing to take those chances on hips to own this breed and they decide to breed a litter. Their parent dogs are tested and though neither have perfect scores, both are scored as not dysplastic. Now the bred stats will tell us that approx 50% of the parent's siblings on average will have HD, so we know it is in the lines and the pups form the litter will statistically have a 50% chance of having HD.

All of this is told to the buyer and they decide they want to own this breed and will take the chance that the pup they pick will be the one in two that does not have HD.

I do not think the breeder ever implied that the pup they sold had good chance of not having HD. If the breeder also said you are taking your chances just like we all do when we own this breed and I am not guaranteeing hips on this dog because he has a 50/50 chance of having HD.

The only other option would be for the breeder to charge a heck of a lot more for all the pups to cover the cost of replacement of approx 50% of the pups they breed or to just stop breeding this breed because they can not afford to breed it and guarantee hips.

Now if the breeder does not warn the buyer, if the breeder had not taken due care and not used screened parents, if the breeder implies the pup will be fine, then that is a different story. Giant breeds have several health problems, HD and ED are 2 of them and they are part and parcel of the risks of owning many of the giant breeds. If you do not want to take a chance on bad hips then do not buy a giant breed or any breed that has a moderate to high risk of having HD.

Research in the future will hopefully reduce the risk, but as it stands now, there is nothing the breeder can do to prevent it from happening. That is just the way it is.

Edited May 11, 2011 by shortstep

[Dogsfevr]

Goofy what would you have done if one of the pet shop pups you sold had a similiar condition??

would you have refund & paid all expenses ??

[shortstep]

Just wanted to add.

There is a thought being given weight these days, the idea that breeders should (by law) have to supply genetic disease insurance on pups. (10 point plan)

From the little I can find out about this type of insurance, any breed that has a common inherited problem such as HD, the insurance would not cover that problem.

I also understand these insurance policies cost in the thousands depending on breed. Which of course would be added to the price of the pup.

So, if supplying insurance became law then no one would would be able by law to breed any breeds that had common inherited problems. You could also expect the cost of a pups from the remaining breeds to go up a considerable amount.

Do understand this would wipe out more than 50% of the current breeds. So do be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it and sooner than you think.

Edited May 11, 2011 by shortstep

[meluchja]

ETA: it's like buying a new car, you buy it new from a dearlershiop, because it has a five star safety rating, etc. But then when something happens to it. It would be like the dealer turning around saying, well I don't know how you have been driving it, I'm not going to fix it. Come on, I think if your going to take the pride in breeding quality pups, you should take at least part responsibilty, if the pup turns out with problems like this pup has.

I'm just thankful, there are some great breeders out there.

This is a common misunderstanding about animals, however dogs are not cars. Dogs are made of genes not parts.

Do you have any idea how many genes are in a dog?

I do not see any time in the near future that dogs will be built in factories by big companies that design each gene in their bodies and then test those genes to make sure ever single one works perfectly.

BTW even great dog breeders will breed dogs with problems.

absolutely, I personally know of a great breeder that has encountered such issues. I also understand that cars are different to dogs, ;) My point was, that I don't think it's fair for a breeder to pretty much say bad luck, not my fault you were the unlucky one who ended up with a dog with problems. And then take no responsibility, and offer no re-embursement. Our family friend, who is a well known a liked breeder, agrees.

I uderstand why someone should buy from a registered breeder, I didn't word that right. But what I don't understand is why should they buy from a breeder who would offer no re-embursement if an owner ends up with a dog with genetic/growth/allergy etc. problems. I just don't think it's fair for the owner, and I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I understand, but lets look at this situation.

Since we do not know what breed of dog it is, only that it is a giant breed, lets take Breed Giant X (this is a real breed but will leave off the name of the breed), according to OFA 48.1% of dogs of this breed submitted for scoring were dysplastic.

Ok so the breeder decides they are willing to take those chances on hips to own this breed and they decide to breed a litter. Their parent dogs are tested and though neither have perfect scores, both are scored as not dysplastic. Now the bred stats will tell us that approx 50% of the parent's siblings on average will have HD, so we know it is in the lines and the pups form the litter will statistically have a 50% chance of having HD.

All of this is told to the buyer and they decide they want to own this breed and will take the chance that the pup they pick will be the one in two that does not have HD.

I do not think the breeder ever implied that the pup they sold had good chance of not having HD. If the breeder also said you are taking your chances just like we all do when we own this breed and I am not guaranteeing hips on this dog because he has a 50/50 chance of having HD.

The only other option would be for the breeder to charge a heck of a lot more for all the pups to cover the cost of replacement of approx 50% of the pups they breed or to just stop breeding this breed because they can not afford to breed it and guarantee hips.

Now if the breeder does not warn the buyer, if the breeder had not taken due care and not used screened parents, if the breeder implies the pup will be fine, then that is a different story. Giant breeds have several health problems, HD and ED are 2 of them and they are part and parcel of the risks of owning many of the giant breeds. If you do not want to take a chance on bad hips then do not buy a giant breed or any breed that has a moderate to high risk of having HD.

Research in the future will hopefully reduce the risk, but as it stands now, there is nothing the breeder can do to prevent it from happening. That is just the way it is.

Yep totally agree. I think it depends on each individual breeder, and what was discussed or was put in a contract as to what the breeder is legally liable to do. But IMO morally I think it's a whole different story.

[TrinaJ]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

Same here, however I would offer a full refund upond the desexing of the pup and they keep it, or a replacement pup from my next litter upon return of the puppy and the registration papers. Sad situation, you dont win either way....poor puppy

So sorry you and your pup are going through this. I haven't read the responses but I hope that you have spoken to your breeder and can come to some arrangement.

Edited May 11, 2011 by TrinaJ

[shortstep]

Someone emailed me and ask how to find % of dysplasia in a breed.

AVA (can't find it now), does a breed average score but it does not tell you the % rate of dogs that have HD in a breed.

This below is from OFA in the USA Canada and Mexico, they are the largest databank of health screening information in the world (other countries also use it as they are one of the cheapest to score and provide a public database and on line lateral pedigrees and also list several other health testing data).

Also for those interested you can also search each breed and review reports which reflect data going back some time, you can see progress of lack of progress made, historical numbers of dogs screened, and lots of other valuable information on current research and theories and breeding practices. Just go to the OFA site and have a good look around.

For the information below

OFA reminds readers that this is a volunteer reporting system and volunteer public access. So the numbers only reflect those dogs that the owners wanted their information made public. This means that the affected numbers would be higher than reflected as many people will not send in affected x-rays or request the information is kept private.

I cannot get the table to load, but the first line has the headers and you can just follow the breed information using the header to define the numbers.

Example; Breed Bull Dog, Rank 1, Number of Evals 485, % Excellent 0.2, % Dysplastic 72.6

Breed, Rank, Number of Evaluations, Percent Excellent, Percent Dysplastic

BULLDOG 1 485 0.2 72.6

PUG 2 406 0.0 64.3

DOGUE DE BORDEAUX 3 368 1.1 56.3

OTTERHOUND 4 358 0.3 52.2

NEAPOLITAN MASTIFF 5 154 2.6 48.1

ST. BERNARD 6 2075 4.2 46.7

CLUMBER SPANIEL 7 806 2.6 45.3

BLACK RUSSIAN TERRIER 8 371 3.2 42.9

SUSSEX SPANIEL 9 250 0.8 41.6

ARGENTINE DOGO 10 188 3.2 41.0

CANE CORSO 11 628 6.4 40.1

BASSET HOUND 12 196 0.0 37.8

BOYKIN SPANIEL 13 2721 2.0 34.1

PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO 14 171 4.1 33.3

NORFOLK TERRIER 15 257 0.0 33.1

AMERICAN BULLDOG 16 1684 4.9 33.0

FRENCH BULLDOG 17 803 1.4 31.3

GLEN OF IMAAL TERRIER 18 132 0.8 31.1

FILA BRASILEIRO 19 594 7.4 30.0

BLOODHOUND 20 2693 2.6 26.1

AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 21 2788 2.3 26.0

NEWFOUNDLAND 22 14369 8.1 25.2

BULLMASTIFF 23 5243 3.9 24.4

MAINE COON CAT 24 1047 4.2 24.0

AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 25 683 5.4 23.6

ENGLISH SHEPHERD 26 294 9.5 22.4

LOUISIANA CATAHOULA LEOPARD 27 509 10.8 22.2

CHESAPEAKE BAY RETRIEVER 28 12082 12.2 20.7

ROTTWEILER 29 91161 8.2 20.3

GOLDEN RETRIEVER 30 127268 4.0 19.8

NORWEGIAN ELKHOUND 31 3694 7.1 19.7

GORDON SETTER 32 5839 8.5 19.5

SHILOH SHEPHERD 33 631 8.6 19.5

CHOW CHOW 34 5153 7.1 19.5

SHIH TZU 35 609 2.0 19.4

HYBRID 36 1024 8.9 19.4

MASTIFF 37 10220 7.9 19.4

CARDIGAN WELSH CORGI 38 1663 3.3 19.2

GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG 39 100407 3.8 19.0

GREATER SWISS MOUNTAIN DOG 40 2376 12.5 18.8

OLD ENGLISH SHEEPDOG 41 10389 11.5 18.6

FIELD SPANIEL 42 902 7.4 18.5

PEMBROKE WELSH CORGI 43 10313 3.2 18.4

KUVASZ 44 1684 13.4 18.3

CHINOOK 45 546 9.0 18.1

GIANT SCHNAUZER 46 4183 9.6 18.0

BEAGLE 47 807 2.4 18.0

WELSH TERRIER 48 101 5.9 17.8

STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER 49 521 2.1 17.3

EPAGNEUL BRETON 50 103 1.9 16.5

ENTLEBUCHER 51 274 3.6 16.4

ENGLISH SETTER 52 9860 10.1 16.3

BERNESE MOUNTAIN DOG 53 15687 13.3 16.1

AFFENPINSCHER 54 258 3.9 15.5

AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG 55 3194 4.4 15.4

SPINONE ITALIANO 56 1039 17.4 15.4

POLISH LOWLAND SHEEPDOG 57 444 8.1 15.3

CURLY-COATED RETRIEVER 58 1099 8.0 15.2

BOUVIER DES FLANDRES 59 7808 6.0 15.1

BRITTANY 60 17250 8.5 14.7

BLACK AND TAN COONHOUND 61 665 10.1 14.7

ICELANDIC SHEEPDOG 62 170 10.0 14.7

BRIARD 63 2246 13.0 14.2

TIBETAN MASTIFF 64 818 7.5 14.1

LABRADOODLE 65 107 6.5 14.0

BEAUCERON 66 324 13.3 13.9

HARRIER 67 306 9.5 13.7

LEONBERGER 68 1469 20.1 13.5

CHINESE SHAR-PEI 69 9364 9.1 13.3

ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL 70 13910 8.6 13.1

PUDELPOINTER 71 373 14.5 12.9

PORTUGUESE WATER DOG 72 7083 13.5 12.9

AKITA 73 15756 18.7 12.9

NORWICH TERRIER 74 602 7.5 12.8

BOSTON TERRIER 75 169 5.9 12.4

CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL 76 5526 4.3 12.3

POODLE 77 21109 11.5 12.2

WEST HIGHLAND WHITE TERRIER 78 206 1.5 12.1

FINNISH LAPPHUND 79 124 9.7 12.1

SMOOTH FOX TERRIER 80 301 8.6 12.0

GREAT DANE 81 11704 11.6 12.0

KOMONDOR 82 940 11.9 12.0

IRISH SETTER 83 10907 8.9 12.0

IRISH WATER SPANIEL 84 1219 17.4 11.9

LABRADOR RETRIEVER 85 215336 17.9 11.9

WELSH SPRINGER SPANIEL 86 1807 15.1 11.8

ALASKAN MALAMUTE 87 13409 16.7 11.5

AIREDALE TERRIER 88 5613 7.3 11.5

SAMOYED 89 15276 10.3 11.1

PETIT BASSET GRIFFONS VENDEEN 90 649 3.9 11.1

BOXER 91 5049 3.4 11.0

BORDER COLLIE 92 9749 12.7 10.9

ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD 93 1635 18.2 10.4

HAVANA SILK DOG 94 146 1.4 10.3

SMALL MUNSTERLANDER 95 127 12.6 10.2

PULI 96 1695 16.2 10.0

NORWEGIAN BUHUND 97 160 8.1 10.0

HAVANESE 98 2492 9.0 9.9

SWEDISH VALLHUND 99 166 6.0 9.6

AKBASH DOG 100 525 23.2 9.5

AMERICAN ESKIMO DOG 101 965 8.0 9.3

GREAT PYRENEES 102 5660 13.9 9.2

GERMAN WIREHAIRED POINTER 103 3851 16.5 9.0

COTON DE TULEAR 104 598 9.0 8.9

AUSTRALIAN KELPIE 105 114 7.9 8.8

STANDARD SCHNAUZER 106 3948 8.1 8.6

WEIMARANER 107 11485 20.9 8.5

POINTER 108 1425 13.5 8.1

MINIATURE AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 109 917 17.8 7.9

WIREHAIRED POINTING GRIFFON 110 1816 20.5 7.8

TIBETAN SPANIEL 111 307 6.5 7.8

AMERICAN WATER SPANIEL 112 719 9.9 7.8

FRENCH SPANIEL 113 158 19.0 7.6

DUTCH SHEPHERD 114 170 19.4 7.1

VIZSLA 115 12569 16.3 7.1

BICHON FRISE 116 3245 11.2 6.8

BULL TERRIER 117 105 11.4 6.7

NOVA SCOTIA DUCKTOLLING RET. 118 1565 17.4 6.6

COCKER SPANIEL 119 12254 10.7 6.5

LHASA APSO 120 810 14.4 6.4

KEESHOND 121 4412 9.0 6.3

DOBERMAN PINSCHER 122 14513 18.0 6.2

FINNISH SPITZ 123 313 16.6 6.1

BEARDED COLLIE 124 4251 16.1 6.0

AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 125 29390 16.2 5.8

AFGHAN HOUND 126 6465 29.6 5.8

KERRY BLUE TERRIER 127 1456 13.0 5.8

HOVAWART 128 121 23.1 5.8

ENGLISH COCKER SPANIEL 129 6490 18.3 5.7

TIBETAN TERRIER 130 3726 30.4 5.7

SHIBA INU 131 2771 18.4 5.7

SCHIPPERKE 132 410 10.2 5.4

BELGIAN MALINOIS 133 2345 18.3 5.4

RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK 134 10355 21.7 5.1

IRISH WOLFHOUND 135 1646 26.7 5.1

NORTH AMERICAN SHEPHERD 136 335 16.7 5.1

SOFT COATED WHEATEN TERRIER 137 5706 16.8 4.8

SHETLAND SHEEPDOG 138 18401 27.3 4.7

DALMATIAN 139 3177 10.2 4.6

GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER 140 14590 25.5 4.3

FLAT-COATED RETRIEVER 141 5058 19.2 4.2

PARSON RUSSELL TERRIER 142 103 24.3 3.9

IRISH RED & WHITE SETTER 143 179 28.5 3.9

BORDER TERRIER 144 2309 20.3 3.6

BELGIAN TERVUREN 145 5479 25.9 3.5

BASENJI 146 2367 23.3 3.4

RAT TERRIER 147 389 13.4 3.3

BELGIAN SHEEPDOG 148 3797 32.7 2.9

COLLIE 149 2756 29.7 2.8

IBIZAN HOUND 150 302 36.4 2.6

PHARAOH HOUND 151 421 15.2 2.6

AUSTRALIAN TERRIER 152 168 6.0 2.4

CANAAN 153 409 17.1 2.2

GREYHOUND 154 339 35.1 2.1

SIBERIAN HUSKY 155 16597 33.6 2.0

BORZOI 156 835 30.8 1.8

SALUKI 157 258 43.0 1.6

WHIPPET 158 144 36.1 1.4

GERMAN PINSCHER 159 296 22.3 1.0

ITALIAN GREYHOUND 160 189 60.3 0.0

Edited May 11, 2011 by shortstep

[darlingdog]

Why not try the stem cell process?

It is $1800

My friends Westie just had it done

I know they do it at Norwest Vets and Ryde vets also

Might be worth looking into

It is same day surgery

I know I am going off topic and apologise but what is the 'stem cell' process ?

[Boronia]

Why not try the stem cell process?

It is $1800

My friends Westie just had it done

I know they do it at Norwest Vets and Ryde vets also

Might be worth looking into

It is same day surgery

I know I am going off topic and apologise but what is the 'stem cell' process ?

I would also like more info...if you could possibly be kind enough to start a new thread so we don't hijack this one...sounds interesting.

[shortstep]

Why not try the stem cell process?

It is $1800

My friends Westie just had it done

I know they do it at Norwest Vets and Ryde vets also

Might be worth looking into

It is same day surgery

I know I am going off topic and apologise but what is the 'stem cell' process ?

I would also like more info...if you could possibly be kind enough to start a new thread so we don't hijack this one...sounds interesting.

There was this thread in the past

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/142733-stem-cell-treatment-for-hip-dysplasia/

here is a video on the HD treatment with stem cells

Edited May 12, 2011 by shortstep

[OSoSwift]

interesting stats. However I do wonder about some for example, the Pug. ONly two recorded, but they rank second with 0% excellent. That would be because no-one sends in a Pug radiograph unless they have a hip issue. This would possibly be the same with other breeds who have a very low incidence of hip issues.

I do realise though that in some breeds number may be higher due to people not wanting the results to be recorded or not getting them scored.

[shortstep]

interesting stats. However I do wonder about some for example, the Pug. ONly two recorded, but they rank second with 0% excellent. That would be because no-one sends in a Pug radiograph unless they have a hip issue. This would possibly be the same with other breeds who have a very low incidence of hip issues.

I do realise though that in some breeds number may be higher due to people not wanting the results to be recorded or not getting them scored.

Not sure what you are saying

The pug

Breed PUG

Ranking 2nd (2nd worst hips)

Number of dogs screened 406

% of excellent 0.0%

% of Dysplasit 64.3%

Is this what you are talking about?

With pugs my understanding is that HD is often hand in hand with dwarf genes. It is true that most breeders do not score dwarf breeds, as it is pretty well understood they will generally not have good hips. Having 400 scored in any dwarf breed is doing very well.

I'll see if I can find any infor from Norway Finland or Sweeden on hips scores for pugs, not sure if they mandate there or not, with other more pressing health concerns I am thinking they will not be screening all breeding dogs.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I think while breeders should take some responsibility at the end of the day anything can go wrong health wise with dogs. I have an allergy dog and i have had a look at a few articles regarding allergies and genetics. In a UK study it was shown that you can take 2 perfectly healthy labradors , mate them, and out of a litter of 10 one pup will to some extent or the other have allergies. Breeders cannot test for this and its something we have to accept is a risk.

I feel that if something goes wrong in the first 3 months that is usually hereditary then breeder should offer some financial help etc. Even if its just to use their breeders discount at vets.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Mason2009

[OSoSwift]

interesting stats. However I do wonder about some for example, the Pug. ONly two recorded, but they rank second with 0% excellent. That would be because no-one sends in a Pug radiograph unless they have a hip issue. This would possibly be the same with other breeds who have a very low incidence of hip issues.

I do realise though that in some breeds number may be higher due to people not wanting the results to be recorded or not getting them scored.

Not sure what you are saying

The pug

Breed PUG

Ranking 2nd (2nd worst hips)

Number of dogs screened 406

% of excellent 0.0%

% of Dysplasit 64.3%

Is this what you are talking about?

With pugs my understanding is that HD is often hand in hand with dwarf genes. It is true that most breeders do not score dwarf breeds, as it is pretty well understood they will generally not have good hips. Having 400 scored in any dwarf breed is doing very well.

I'll see if I can find any infor from Norway Finland or Sweeden on hips scores for pugs, not sure if they mandate there or not, with other more pressing health concerns I am thinking they will not be screening all breeding dogs.

Oh sorry I stand corrected I read it wrong, was still waking up

[Goofy]

Goofy what would you have done if one of the pet shop pups you sold had a similiar condition??

would you have refund & paid all expenses ??

I was always open to negotiation. In some cases we replaced the pup (and let them keep the original one.) In some cases we refunded. In some we paid expenses. I worked on the basis that I treated people the way I would like to be treated. However, in my case it was easier than the registered breeders situation as it was just part of the cost of doing business.

[Goofy]

I thought I would just provide an update.

My pup has seen the breeder's vet and I have had a long discussion with him too. Whilst my vet and the breeder's vet differ on a number of points, they both agree that the pups left elbow is basically buggered, and the right is not much better, and the one hip is half out and may cause complications in time.

The prognosis is that he may be able to live with it, but he will never be really happy and will have to lead a very restricted lifestyle. He also won't make 'old bones.'

The breeder has agreed to take him back and in her own words, "in my usual optimistic way, hope that in a few months I can get him better and then re-home him."

We have come to an amicable arrangement that we both think is fair and reasonable, although the house is half empty without him.

Thanks to all that provided constructive feedback.