What Should The Breeder Do?

[conztruct]

What do you want? It's always best to know that before you go in to a discussion.

Are you prepared to send the pup back or have you formed an emotional bond with it?

If this was me, I would tell the breeder what my vet has found, and suggest that I get a second opinion from a vet experienced with giant breeds or an orthopedic specialist. I'd do that because our show dogs are also companions. Others might simply send the dog back without further ado.

Once I had that second opinion, I'd be in a better position to decide what to do. My personal view is that shit happens. If you don't want another dog from the breeder then I think you have to cut your losses if they don't offer a refund. If you are prepared to get another dog from the breeder and the second opinion supports your vet's diagnosis then you can negotiate from there.

I'm so sorry for what has happened Goofy.

I think that SSM has provided you with some excellent advice. You need to consider what is an appropriate resolution from your viewpoint and then discuss with the breeder, and then take it from there. I know you posted on here to ask for advice about perhaps what the expectations of the breeder should be, but I really think that it's more important to talk to the breeder about it as soon as possible, as responsibility is unclear, subjective and can vary based on the context - I think the second opinion is also very important.

A responsible breeder will want to know if there's issues in their stock.

[lappiemum]

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, please speak to your breeder.

Hopefully the breeder hip and elbow scored the parents - sadly many don't in my breed.

The breeder maybe able to suggest a specialist vet for you.

Always remember not every vet can/should take xrays for hip and elbow scoring/problems, Many of them have no idea how to place them etc.

Diet, exercise and genetics play a huge part in raising a Giant Breed.

Is very good with Giant breeds.

Dr Karen Hedberg (Veterinary Surgeon)

36 Bells Line Of Rd

North Richmond NSW 2754

Phone: (02) 4571 2042

Everything SwaY said. And I can second that Karen Hedberg is very good - if you can take your puppy there, she knows what she is doing.

[JulesP]

I'm sorry about your puppy Goofy.

I think the breeder should offer support to the owner and help rehome a puppy if needed. I don't think the breeder should be financially responsible for any issues that occur with the puppy. I think people need to realise that stuff goes wrong with living creatures. If you are unwilling to take the chance then don't buy a pet.

There are just no guarantees as to what will happen as the pup grows. To expect one is I think unreasonable. Even with inherited stuff. If the breeder has tested then they have done all they can. If the owner buys an untested animal then well their fault and suck it up.

[cowanbree]

The poster has already indicated that the puppy has been returned and the breeder is getting a second vets opinion

[Keira&Phoenix]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

That's easier said than done unless you take out the new owner's emotional investment.

ETA: What would the breeder be likely to do with a pup with those problems that the owner would not do?

Given that this dog has been sold on the main register I would assume this is a show dog in a show home which complicates matters. If it was a pet home I would most likely offer to let them keep the puppy but only if I felt they would do what was in the dogs best interests no matter what that was. It is my right to ask for the dog back before refunding anything.

I have had a pet puppy diagnosed with bad hips. In my case the dog was grossly overweight and had been allowed to race up and down stairs from a very young age. I did give them another puppy but if I was being honest I seriously considered not as there was no history of it and the parents were hips scored. I felt it was at least in part due to owners negligence. Interestingly enough the later dog died of a brain tumour at the age of 9yrs and they said we have checked with the vet and they don't think it is hereditary. I am not God here, all I can do is health test and everything else is out of my control.

The OP actually mentioned earlier the breeder kept the pup on main register to use as an alternate stud dog.

See page 1

This breeder does not put many of her pups on the main register. The vast majority are sold with limited registration. Its on the main register because the breeder was thinking about using it as an alternative stud dog.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[pdt]

I wouldn't expext to much from the breeder unless they offered a health guarentee when you bought the pup. There seems to have been a standard set,(weather by breed clubs officialy or by the community morally), That if the parents were hip and elbow tested then the breeder has done the right thing.

However this has raised a good point which may need its own thread. Are the current health test regulations and breeding practices tight enough??????????

I am sure we all have ideas on what should or could be done and it would be good to get those ideas out there to put pressure on the breeders to do as much as possible to fight against ALL hereditry problems.

Personaly I will be implementing some practises in my own dogs and would hope to get some opinions on my ideas.

Alot of breeders will get the hip scores done at 12 months old for the best score possible and breed regardless of the score. Many are bound by a club or breed max score which stops people breeding regardless of scores. I believe that the we should lift the min age for hip scoring to 18-24 months. Perhaps it would also be a good idea for breeders to do another score at 4-5 years old to try and get an idea of how much the hips are degenerating over that period of time. I will be doing this with my own dogs but I am not sure if it will be usefull or not. Time will tell I guess.

As others have pointed out here. The parnets can bboth test well and throw pups with problems. It is for this reason I would like to see breeders sell dogs on limited register and not sign them over untill a hip score has been done (at the breeders cost) and a copy sent to them for record keeping. This will help us know if our breeding stock that tested well is throwing pups that are testing poorly.

These tests should not just apply to hip and elbows but all health testing and even temprement testing (perhaps in some cases more importantly).

There is s much more I could go on forever but I dont want to hijack your thread. Contact the breeder so she is aware and hope for but dont expect some compensation and assistance.

[shortstep]

I am so sorry to have read your post, how sad for you and your dog. However do keep positive, as there are many treatments, medications and supplements that can really help change the outcome of both of these diseases.

I have not read all the answers.

I will just address what I think is the general bottom line on the subject of giant breeds and HD and ED.

There is no surprise in this situation.

All most all giant breeds have rather high rates of ED and HD, it is no secret. Some breeds as high as 70% are affected and many giant breeds run around 1 in 3 affected. So a common problem in giant breeds and in some breeds can almost be said to be expected.

I think if someone buys a giant breed knowing that they have a very high risk of getting a dog with severe joint problems, then they really can't blame the breeder. In reality they took a chance and they knew what the chances were that come along with the breed.

However I would also expect for the breeder to have given them the % rates of affected dogs for both hips and elbows for the breed in writing. I would also expect to see an exceptionally aggressive screening program for HD and ED, meaning not just the parents screened but their siblings and all of their offspring and all this information presented to the buyer. I would expect to also see them breeding for smaller, lighter boned and lighter weight dogs that would have less risk and if not then in writing to inform the buyers that large size and rapid growth increase the risks. Also extensive details on how to feed the dog for the first 18 months of it's life to slow down growth and how to keep calcium below 1%. they also need to say what if anything they will do if the dog gets HD or ED.

(And while talking about giant breeds and risks, also breeding for low family history of cancer another disease often found in high rates in many large breed dogs and for increased longevity due short life span being common in many large breeds.)

If they are doing all these things then they have done all they can do to reduce the risk and to inform the buyer, the buyer took their chances knowing the risks. If however they are not doing these things (and most important did not give the buyer in writing the % of affected dogs in the breed for HD and ED, cancer and average death age), then I feel they failed to notify the buyer of the health risks in the breed.

[shortstep]

Alot of breeders will get the hip scores done at 12 months old for the best score possible and breed regardless of the score. Many are bound by a club or breed max score which stops people breeding regardless of scores. I believe that the we should lift the min age for hip scoring to 18-24 months. Perhaps it would also be a good idea for breeders to do another score at 4-5 years old to try and get an idea of how much the hips are degenerating over that period of time. I will be doing this with my own dogs but I am not sure if it will be usefull or not. Time will tell I guess.

Just wanted to comment on this. I will start from the premise that the breeder wants to do the right thing.

It has been a standard rule of thumb, if you get a score that is getting close to not acceptable in your breed at 12 months of age, that you re x-ray again at after 2 years of age to make sure the hips have stayed in the acceptable range. However, if you get a score in a the lower numbers, meaning 10 or under and no area of high scores, then this dog is not going to have big enough changes to become dysplastic over the next year. It is possible it might get a few more points but not enough to affect the opinion on the hips.

the benefit of screening early far out weights the risk of not catching those few dogs with borderline scores that got worse (and their breeder should have retested anyway). The benefit for the breeder who has an active screening program is great and vital. They need to look at all offspring as soon as possible before breeding the parent dogs again. They (Cornell Uni) have even come up with a test that can be used at 8 months of age that is 98% accurate in the normal range if repeated at 3 years. The whole reason for developing this test was to allow screening offspring ASAP to prevent breeding more affected dogs and to allow moving forward with all the information needed.

Now if the breeder is not doing an active prevention and screening program, so they are not looking at all of their offspring hips prior to breeding the parents again, then it make no difference by increasing the age of screening anyway, does it?

Edited to add, only a handful of ANKC breeds have any restrictions on hip or elbow scoreing or breeding score directives.

Edited May 10, 2011 by shortstep

[KitKat]

A GSD i know was diagnosed with ED and HD at around 6-8 months old...had x-rays done and the owner was warned that the dog would need a minimum of $3,000 worth of ops to offer the dog a reasonable life. After convincing the owners to take the dog to a specialist for a 2nd opinion the dog was diagnosed with Pano, and a few months of being kept lean and low grade exercise the dog was fine.

Certainly not saying this is what is happening to your poor pup - but second opinions are as important for them as it is for us! Hopefully there is a good happy outcome for your pup.

[JoeK]

I remember someone taking high profile breeder of the Shepherd Dogs to court action in Germany for pup with the HD in is hips and what happened is too many variable to cause bad hips in the raising of the pup. The breeder comply with the testing on the parents and win the case. I am not knowing the court how is working here, but in German law they say the breeder did nothing wrong and could do nothing to prevent the bad hips on the pup.

If was me selling pup with bad hips on a litter I sell for top quality, I would give a refund or another pup for my own conscionce. Is bad feeling to sell pup when hes no good on the health I try to do the right thing to helping the owner get the pup they wanting. Sometimes is best to let sick pup fly to heaven we not really ever knowing how the sick pup suffering on bad health.

Joe

[JoeK]

A GSD i know was diagnosed with ED and HD at around 6-8 months old...had x-rays done and the owner was warned that the dog would need a minimum of $3,000 worth of ops to offer the dog a reasonable life. After convincing the owners to take the dog to a specialist for a 2nd opinion the dog was diagnosed with Pano, and a few months of being kept lean and low grade exercise the dog was fine.

Certainly not saying this is what is happening to your poor pup - but second opinions are as important for them as it is for us! Hopefully there is a good happy outcome for your pup.

Yes, I have seen the Pano on the pup and the crucial ligament for the diagnose of the HD was wrong. The pano common in working line Shepherd Dogs when they overfeed and over train young dog to be sporting champion too early in is life and he get a limping which swap from different legs. Is happens when trying to building 40kg pup at 6 months for ego producing the biggest Shepherd pup.

Joe

[pdt]

Alot of breeders will get the hip scores done at 12 months old for the best score possible and breed regardless of the score. Many are bound by a club or breed max score which stops people breeding regardless of scores. I believe that the we should lift the min age for hip scoring to 18-24 months. Perhaps it would also be a good idea for breeders to do another score at 4-5 years old to try and get an idea of how much the hips are degenerating over that period of time. I will be doing this with my own dogs but I am not sure if it will be usefull or not. Time will tell I guess.

Just wanted to comment on this. I will start from the premise that the breeder wants to do the right thing.

It has been a standard rule of thumb, if you get a score that is getting close to not acceptable in your breed at 12 months of age, that you re x-ray again at after 2 years of age to make sure the hips have stayed in the acceptable range. However, if you get a score in a the lower numbers, meaning 10 or under and no area of high scores, then this dog is not going to have big enough changes to become dysplastic over the next year. It is possible it might get a few more points but not enough to affect the opinion on the hips.

the benefit of screening early far out weights the risk of not catching those few dogs with borderline scores that got worse (and their breeder should have retested anyway). The benefit for the breeder who has an active screening program is great and vital. They need to look at all offspring as soon as possible before breeding the parent dogs again. They (Cornell Uni) have even come up with a test that can be used at 8 months of age that is 98% accurate in the normal range if repeated at 3 years. The whole reason for developing this test was to allow screening offspring ASAP to prevent breeding more affected dogs and to allow moving forward with all the information needed.

Now if the breeder is not doing an active prevention and screening program, so they are not looking at all of their offspring hips prior to breeding the parents again, then it make no difference by increasing the age of screening anyway, does it?

Edited to add, only a handful of ANKC breeds have any restrictions on hip or elbow scoreing or breeding score directives.

Thank you shortstep,

You are right I didn't take into consideration catching the early signs by testing early. I know the rule of thumb you mention at the begining, it is a good way of doing things and perhaps is what should be looked at as an official rule rather than increasing the min age. Thankyou for your reply

[Isabel964]

So sorry about the pup, such sad news. BTW there is nothing wrong with your post at all, ignore any accusations of you trying to pass the buck....I don't know what gets into some peoples heads.

[shortstep]

I have read here in a couple of posts that HD is or can be caused by other factors rather then inheritance.

This is not what I understand to be the situation.

The current thinking is that there are multiple genes involved in HD. These genes fall into two categories.

The first category. Some of the genes will be direct causes, such as a gene that might cause the joint to be subluxed (loose fitting), a gene that caused the pup to absorb too much or lay down calcium incorrectly or the deformed bones found in breeds that carry the dwarf gene, and likely several more.

The second category. Then there are other genes will be in the form of traits that cause risk, these are known as risk factors, but be clear they are genes. These genes can be for giant size, genes for rapid growth, genes that cause early maturing, genes that cause the dog to carry more weight especially in youth, reckless temperament, and likely several more.

For a dog to get HD, it has to have some if not all of the genes from the first category that directly cause the deformity to the joint. If they do not have these genes then they cannot get HD.

However, the severity of HD can also be affected by the risk factor genes in the second category. These genes can make HD more or less severe. This is where the first year of life is important, as we can influence some of these risk genes.

For example a dog that has a risk gene to grow rapidly and to grow very large, if fed correctly can slow down this growth and reduce the risk of severe HD or if feed incorrectly can cause the dog to grow even faster, carry extra weight and increasing the over all size, all increasing the risk of severe HD symptoms. However, the dog MUST have the genes that cause the deformities of the joint for it to get HD. A dog without these genes for the deformities of the joint will not get HD no matter how it is fed or raised (not considering injuries to the joint).

By proper rearing, we can in effect mask or lessen the severity of HD symptoms in the dog that does have the genes for the disease. This might make the difference between mild HD and borderline HD, or severe HD and mild HD and it can also make the difference between 0-0 hips and 3-3 hips.

I think breeders need to keep this in mind when reviewing hip scores on potential breeding lines, that good rearing can improve scores and poor rearing can lower scores. But in the end, you can not cause a dog to have HD by poor rearing that does not already have the genes for the deformities to the joint.

They have already found a couple of genes involved and more is on the way soon.

Edited May 10, 2011 by shortstep

[Isabel964]

Goofy really sorry for what has happened, I really feel for you and your lovely giant . I hope he gets to live a happy relatively pain free life, even if it isn't the life you intended for him. I have no idea what breeders should or should not do, but it seems yours is being supportive and I think that is great. Also, sorry for the couple of snippity comments made in a some posts, I don't know why people get like that, so unnecessary . All the best for you and your giant, and hugs too.

[WreckitWhippet]

Goofy really sorry for what has happened, I really feel for you and your lovely giant . I hope he gets to live a happy relatively pain free life, even if it isn't the life you intended for him. I have no idea what breeders should or should not do, but it seems yours is being supportive and I think that is great. Also, sorry for the couple of snippity comments made in a some posts, I don't know why people get like that, so unnecessary . All the best for you and your giant, and hugs too.

Why apologise on behalf of those who supposedly made " snippity" comments ? Perhaps they, like me, are sick of breeders getting the blame for everything that goes wrong with someone's dog.

If a breeder tests their breeding stock, selects the best and breeds with the aim of producing happy, healthy animals, then that is all they can do.

If you purchase a living animal, you buy the good, the bad and the ugly. That animal then becomes your responsibilty.

[oakway]

Goofy really sorry for what has happened, I really feel for you and your lovely giant . I hope he gets to live a happy relatively pain free life, even if it isn't the life you intended for him. I have no idea what breeders should or should not do, but it seems yours is being supportive and I think that is great. Also, sorry for the couple of snippity comments made in a some posts, I don't know why people get like that, so unnecessary . All the best for you and your giant, and hugs too.

Why apologise on behalf of those who supposedly made " snippity" comments ? Perhaps they, like me, are sick of breeders getting the blame for everything that goes wrong with someone's dog.

If a breeder tests their breeding stock, selects the best and breeds with the aim of producing happy, healthy animals, then that is all they can do.

If you purchase a living animal, you buy the good, the bad and the ugly. That animal then becomes your responsibilty.

You have taken the words right out of my mouth. ;)

[mita]

That really sucks, I'm sorry.

E.D. especially is known to be highly heritable. I very much doubt the shoulders and hips both would have developed abnormally without some genetic predisposition, unless you were doing something seriously out of order with the pup's diet or exercise or the pup underwent some form of trauma during growth.

But on the other hand, if the sire was scored, and the dam's parents, and all got good scores, it's hard to tell what else the breeder could have done. Breeders can do all the right things, and still there's no guarantee that the pups will be sound.

Have any of the other pups from the litter developed joint issues?

It's good to get a health guarantee with your pup, but some guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on. Many breeders will offer you your money back if you return the puppy, for example, but of course once you've had the pup 6 months it's pretty unlikely you'll want to do that.

This is an excellent post, IMO.

I'd only add that it's not simply necessary to look at depth of pedigree when checking for highly heritable conditions (that is parents, grandparents etc). But also breadth of pedigree (that is siblings of parents & grandparents). Which shows that a highly heritable condition can, seemingly, pop up out of nowhere. (Curiously, we do the same thing in tracking if there's any other case of dyslexic type problems in a child's family. It's not unusual for someone like that child's uncle to have experienced the same.)

I'm really sorry for the OP's situation. And also for the dog. As Greytmate said, the nature of the conditions don't auger well for a happy, healthy life as a pet, either.

I think the OP did the right thing in contacting the breeder. That breeder may use the information to do some further tracking. And also to inform their future breeding decisions.

Any refunds or whatever are a matter for negotiation between the two parties involved.

Edited May 11, 2011 by mita

[meluchja]

This has always bugged me.

So why buy from a registered breeder???? If all this testing means squat..... Especially if your breeder won't support you, if something goes wrong.

IMO, I thought one would go to a registered breeder, so they knew what they were getting, and they would have piece of mind that if the pup ended up with any health issues, whatever they may be, they had rights to contact the breeder and ask for a refund or replacement pup, or something that is mutually agreed, especially if they plan on showing/breeding from this pup.

Sounds like the breeder of this pup, is taking control of the situation. I'm glad. I hope you can come to some sort of an arrangement your both happy with.

ETA: it's like buying a new car, you buy it new from a dearlershiop, because it has a five star safety rating, etc. But then when something happens to it. It would be like the dealer turning around saying, well I don't know how you have been driving it, I'm not going to fix it. Come on, I think if your going to take the pride in breeding quality pups, you should take at least part responsibilty, if the pup turns out with problems like this pup has.

I'm just thankful, there are some great breeders out there.

Edited May 11, 2011 by meluchja

[mita]

So why buy from a registered breeder???? If all this testing means squat..... Because like you say at the end of the day, they might or might not be free of genetic disorders, allergies etc, even if the parents and or grandparents were clear.

It's best to buy from a registered breeder because the pedigree allows tracking BEYOND parents & grandparents. Heritable conditions in both animals & humans can have shown up in siblings (brothers & sisters) of those parents & grandparents.

The fact that pedigree dogs are registered means that tracking can be done. Connections amongst dogs are documented in the system of registering purebred dogs. Generations of dogs can be tracked. So better informed decisions about breeding can be made.

The researchers looking at conditions which can affect both dogs AND people, praise the pedigree dog system to the heavens. Because it so efficiently & accurately allows them to track. And, hopefully, develop testing protocols.

Without that possibility of tracking, breeding is the 'luck of the draw'. With the possibility of tracking, there's room for some reduction of risk.

Medical science can't take away all risk for heritable conditions in humans. Best we have is working for reduction of risk there, too. And, when a child is born with such a condition, or it's developed later in life, we don't conclude that going to medical doctors is useless. In fact, it provides more reason to go to and support medical science.

Also there's some role in environmental factors being needed to trigger underlying genetic conditions. (Once again, same for humans as for dogs). Breeders who are aware of certain such conditions can advise on how to better control the environment.

Like diet, or caution re over-demanding physical activity during the period when young dogs' bones are in their most rapid growth phase.

Edited May 11, 2011 by mita