What Should The Breeder Do?

[Goofy]

I have a 10 month old giant breed dog (in theory show quality and on the main register) that I purchased from a well respected breeder with decades of breeding experience in the breed. He has been fed premium food exclusively (plus a bone once a week.) I have not mentioned the breed as it would probably be fairly easy to identify the breeder.

Unfortunately I have just had to take him to the vet as he was not walking properly.

The vet examined him and found the front left elbow had restricted movement and was painful. The pup was subsequently sedated and his elbows were x-rayed.

The left elbow has bad OCD. To quote the vet, "it basically buggered and no matter what we do, it will never be right." He may also require an operation to clean up the elbow (not sure of proper terminology.) The right elbow also has OCD, but not as badly.

Whilst the pup was sedated, the vet decided to also x-ray the hips just to check. One hip has the femur about half way out the joint. And the other hip is also clunky.

The vet said the pain relief, glucosamine, catrophen etc will cost at least $100 a month.

When I asked if the hip is likely to be a problem that may require a replacement, the answer was "that his elbows will probably give out and he will need to be euthanized before that happens."

My questions to the forum is does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

[Gayle.]

Oh, that's so sad. Have you spoken to the breeder?

[Boxerheart]

I have a 10 month old giant breed dog (in theory show quality and on the main register) that I purchased from a well respected breeder with decades of breeding experience in the breed. He has been fed premium food exclusively (plus a bone once a week.) I have not mentioned the breed as it would probably be fairly easy to identify the breeder.

Unfortunately I have just had to take him to the vet as he was not walking properly.

The vet examined him and found the front left elbow had restricted movement and was painful. The pup was subsequently sedated and his elbows were x-rayed.

The left elbow has bad OCD. To quote the vet, "it basically buggered and no matter what we do, it will never be right." He may also require an operation to clean up the elbow (not sure of proper terminology.) The right elbow also has OCD, but not as badly.

Whilst the pup was sedated, the vet decided to also x-ray the hips just to check. One hip has the femur about half way out the joint. And the other hip is also clunky.

The vet said the pain relief, glucosamine, catrophen etc will cost at least $100 a month.

When I asked if the hip is likely to be a problem that may require a replacement, the answer was "that his elbows will probably give out and he will need to be euthanized before that happens."

My questions to the forum is does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

Too many variables with a growing animal to lay the blame solely at the breeders feet.

Some premium dog foods can make a pup grow too rapidly. Some previously considered premium dog foods have gone to crap too. It is far from a natural diet and I am sorry but one bone a week minus regular BARF type food is just not good enough in my opinion.

Your pup may have been over exercised or too fat. Injured, Bounding up and down stairs? etc etc

Only you know what you and your breeder discussed and agreed to and I hope the breeder put it in writing. You have bought a living thing and there is always risk with a living thing.

Have you had a second specialists vets opinion?

Was the puppies parents hip and elbow scored? End of the day our opinions mean nothing. You obviously are looking to pass the buck and are seeking support on here. You need to be talking to your breeder not us.

By the way, just because a dog is put on main register does not mean it is guaranteed show quality, nor does it imply it is show quality. It simply means there have been no restrictions as to what you would do with that dog, placed on that dog.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh. But sitting here behind the computer we cannot know all that went on in the 8 months you have had the pup.

Talk to your breeder first.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Boxerheart

[cowanbree]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

[Rebanne]

OCD and HD can both occur through no fault of anyone. Or it can occur cause the pup was bred from poor parents or the owner has not raised it properly. Food not suitable, wrong exercise, parents with poor structure. Very variable. The only person who can help you is the breeder. Everyone does things/will respond differently, no one here can tell you what the breeder will do or should do.

eta fix spelling

Edited May 9, 2011 by Rebanne

[Boxerheart]

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

Agree

[aussielover]

Have you talked to the breeder about it yet?

If they are as you say, well respected and ethical they will certainly want to know.

If the dog was bred from parents with good hip and elbow scores then I really don't see how the breeder could be held responsible? Unfortunately HD and ED are known problems with large breed dogs and breeding dogs with good scores is still no guarantee sadly.

It would be nice if the breeder was sympathetic and perhaps offered a replacement pup for showing or performance if that is what you wanted to do, but they have absolutely no obligation to do so.

[SwaY]

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, please speak to your breeder.

Hopefully the breeder hip and elbow scored the parents - sadly many don't in my breed.

The breeder maybe able to suggest a specialist vet for you.

Always remember not every vet can/should take xrays for hip and elbow scoring/problems, Many of them have no idea how to place them etc.

Diet, exercise and genetics play a huge part in raising a Giant Breed.

Is very good with Giant breeds.

Dr Karen Hedberg (Veterinary Surgeon)

36 Bells Line Of Rd

North Richmond NSW 2754

Phone: (02) 4571 2042

[Florise]

My questions to the forum is does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?[/size]

Have you spoken to the breeder yet? What would you expect from the breeder?

[WreckitWhippet]

Speak to the breeder and see a specialist.

[SwaY]

The reason we say speak to the breeder is they need to know there is a problem, they can't deal with it they don't know it exists.

Hopefully they will help and support you.

[raineth]

I have a 10 month old giant breed dog (in theory show quality and on the main register) that I purchased from a well respected breeder with decades of breeding experience in the breed. He has been fed premium food exclusively (plus a bone once a week.) I have not mentioned the breed as it would probably be fairly easy to identify the breeder.

Unfortunately I have just had to take him to the vet as he was not walking properly.

The vet examined him and found the front left elbow had restricted movement and was painful. The pup was subsequently sedated and his elbows were x-rayed.

The left elbow has bad OCD. To quote the vet, "it basically buggered and no matter what we do, it will never be right." He may also require an operation to clean up the elbow (not sure of proper terminology.) The right elbow also has OCD, but not as badly.

Whilst the pup was sedated, the vet decided to also x-ray the hips just to check. One hip has the femur about half way out the joint. And the other hip is also clunky.

The vet said the pain relief, glucosamine, catrophen etc will cost at least $100 a month.

When I asked if the hip is likely to be a problem that may require a replacement, the answer was "that his elbows will probably give out and he will need to be euthanized before that happens."

My questions to the forum is does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

Too many variables with a growing animal to lay the blame solely at the breeders feet.

Some premium dog foods can make a pup grow too rapidly. Some previously considered premium dog foods have gone to crap too. It is far from a natural diet and I am sorry but one bone a week minus regular BARF type food is just not good enough in my opinion.

Your pup may have been over exercised or too fat. Injured, Bounding up and down stairs? etc etc

Only you know what you and your breeder discussed and agreed to and I hope the breeder put it in writing. You have bought a living thing and there is always risk with a living thing.

Have you had a second specialists vets opinion?

Was the puppies parents hip and elbow scored? End of the day our opinions mean nothing. You obviously are looking to pass the buck and are seeking support on here. You need to be talking to your breeder not us.

By the way, just because a dog is put on main register does not mean it is guaranteed show quality, nor does it imply it is show quality. It simply means there have been no restrictions as to what you would do with that dog, placed on that dog.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh. But sitting here behind the computer we cannot know all that went on in the 8 months you have had the pup.

Talk to your breeder first.

I think that's really harsh.

Are you suggesting that this person should have fed their growing giant breed puppy barf? I find that really strange, as getting the ratios correct for a giant breed puppy via BARF is really hard and as such you would be more likely to run into problems than with an apporpriate premium kibble. It sounded to me like they were feeding the puppy what the breeder suggested.

to the OP, I'm really sorry your dog has bad hips and elbows.

definitely talk to your dog's breeder and let them know.

[OSoSwift]

I would also contact the breeder.

Even if they do not ask for a secind opinion I would get one myself. They may say the same thing and you may feel you didn't need to pend the extra to be told the same thing, but at least that is definately the issue.

ETA I do not think they are trying to buck pass at all, just probably very upset and confused and trying to figure out what is seen as the norm, and what they should do.

Not everyone is dog and breeder savy

Edited May 9, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Danois]

What food did you feed the dog?

How has the dog been exercised for the last 8 months - including running/ playing with other dogs, how much going up/ down stairs etc etc

I agree with the others that OCD/ HD can be both environmental and genetic.

I'd also say to contact the breeder and get a second opinion.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Danois

[Goofy]

Too many variables with a growing animal to lay the blame solely at the breeders feet.

Some premium dog foods can make a pup grow too rapidly. Some previously considered premium dog foods have gone to crap too. It is far from a natural diet and I am sorry but one bone a week minus regular BARF type food is just not good enough in my opinion.

Ask 10 people about dog food and you will get 10 answers. Most comments on food are just that - comments and, unfortunately, not based on fact. That's because there is stuff all independent real research available.

Your pup may have been over exercised or too fat. Injured, Bounding up and down stairs? etc etc

This is my third of this breed so I know what's required. He isn't overweight, has not been over-exercised, trained to use the ramp to get into and out of the car, and not allowed to jump etc.

Only you know what you and your breeder discussed and agreed to and I hope the breeder put it in writing. You have bought a living thing and there is always risk with a living thing.

Nothing in writing and it wasn't really discussed. I know all about risk, the first had HD problems starting to show when it was about two. The second got a bad gut infection at 3 months that meant it was on Hills ZD for its whole life, so I am aware of the risks.

Have you had a second specialists vets opinion?

I will probably get one, but the breeder has the pup and x-rays so she can get an opinion from her own vet. As I live in the country, it will take a few days to arrange.

Was the puppies parents hip and elbow scored?

The father was scored and is regularly used as the breeders stud dog. The mother is an import and I am not sure if it was old enough to be scored. But the bitches parents were all scored.

End of the day our opinions mean nothing. You obviously are looking to pass the buck and are seeking support on here. You need to be talking to your breeder not us.

I am talking to the breeder, but wanted to know what you guys think. Is there anything wrong with that?

By the way, just because a dog is put on main register does not mean it is guaranteed show quality, nor does it imply it is show quality. It simply means there have been no restrictions as to what you would do with that dog, placed on that dog.

This breeder does not put many of her pups on the main register. The vast majority are sold with limited registration. Its on the main register because the breeder was thinking about using it as an alternative stud dog.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh. But sitting here behind the computer we cannot know all that went on in the 8 months you have had the pup.

Fully understand. Hope now that I have provided more info it will put things in a better perspective.

[gidg]

How devestating, I'm very sorry you've recieved such news.

I think the breeder should know definately and then see what they say.

I've just recently had something similar happen (shoulder ocd) and I wasn't particularly happy with the breeder who told me I would still be able to breed my bitch and they then wished me well with the pup.

If I was the breeder I would want to know and I would at least be wanting to help and support the owner with correct diagnosing, research, information and deciding what to do to help the pup.

And very importantly emotional support to the owner.

But I don't expect finacial support or a refund with something like this from the breeder of my dog.

If I was the breeder I would offer to take the pup back (I would take any animal I bred back for any reason), but not necessarily for a refund.

I won't be bothering to contact my breeder again, nor would I buy from them again, but that not because of the OCD, it is because I don't really feel that the breeder has any interest in helping me through this time, and I don't mean finacially, there is a difficulty in communication.

I hope you get a more helpful response from the breeder of your dog.

Good luck with it all.

[SwaY]

Your pup may have been over exercised or too fat. Injured, Bounding up and down stairs? etc etc

This is my third of this breed so I know what's required. He isn't overweight, has not been over-exercised, trained to use the ramp to get into and out of the car, and not allowed to jump etc.

Only you know what you and your breeder discussed and agreed to and I hope the breeder put it in writing. You have bought a living thing and there is always risk with a living thing.

Nothing in writing and it wasn't really discussed. I know all about risk, the first had HD problems starting to show when it was about two. The second got a bad gut infection at 3 months that meant it was on Hills ZD for its whole life, so I am aware of the risks.

Was the puppies parents hip and elbow scored?

The father was scored and is regularly used as the breeders stud dog. The mother is an import and I am not sure if it was old enough to be scored. But the bitches parents were all scored.

And yet you don't know if the mother was scored or not even after your previous problems??

[poodlefan]

The breeder should discuss the situation with you, wait for the specialist's opinion and take decisions from there.

They can't do anything until you inform them as to what's happening.

Personally, I'd not trust an 'ordinary' vets diagnosis at all.

[Greytmate]

Whether the pup was sold with main papers or not is not important. The problems described mean that the dog may not even be suitable as a pet dog, let alone anything more than that.

Hopefully the breeder will give you a full refund if it turns out that the problems are as severe as the vet said.

The problem still remains of the poor dog having faulty hips and elbows. Money can't fix that, and unless the breeder really stuffs you around, you can't expect any more from them than just a refund of the purchase price.

[Staranais]

That really sucks, I'm sorry.

E.D. especially is known to be highly heritable. I very much doubt the shoulders and hips both would have developed abnormally without some genetic predisposition, unless you were doing something seriously out of order with the pup's diet or exercise or the pup underwent some form of trauma during growth.

But on the other hand, if the sire was scored, and the dam's parents, and all got good scores, it's hard to tell what else the breeder could have done. Breeders can do all the right things, and still there's no guarantee that the pups will be sound.

Have any of the other pups from the litter developed joint issues?

It's good to get a health guarantee with your pup, but some guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on. Many breeders will offer you your money back if you return the puppy, for example, but of course once you've had the pup 6 months it's pretty unlikely you'll want to do that.